sway bar question

inxsole · #1 (**permalink**) 10-07-2009, 06:51 PM

Okay, here again another question. this time about lowering a car and stabilization.
Here we go...

-I'm going to purchase some skunk2 springs and I wanted to know if i were to drop my car with the springs... how important is it to have a sway bar, and a strut bar. Would a tie bar be as good, or would a sway bar be best. If i do need a sway bar, would it be best to have it installed at the same time as the springs?

Fitting · #2 (**permalink**) 10-08-2009, 11:52 AM

YOu don't have to get anything else even if you get springs unless you wanted to stiffen up the chasis. Sway bar will have a bigger effect then the tie bar. Yes, getting the sway bar install at the same time would be more convenient.

kenchan · #3 (**permalink**) 10-09-2009, 01:38 PM

if you get linear rate lowering springs your car won't sway too
bad, but if you get progressive rate springs chances are you will
want to get a rear swaybar.

OutkastGS3 · #4 (**permalink**) 10-17-2009, 01:46 PM

none of the bars do anything!!! i have them all

I'm on skunk2 right now with the sway and struts, can barely notice any difference

chinky · #5 (**permalink**) 10-19-2009, 03:36 PM

^ so you're saying that the body is pretty stiff as is and that the sway bar doesn't help reduce body roll?

MNfit · #6 (**permalink**) 10-19-2009, 04:20 PM

if any thing i recomend getting the progress rear sway bar.

holokai · #7 (**permalink**) 10-19-2009, 05:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MNfit

if any thing i recomend getting the progress rear sway bar.

ditto. you might want to check out new tires too since the stocks aren't that great and i swear i could feel the sidewall flex.

grtpumpkin · #8 (**permalink**) 10-19-2009, 09:28 PM

I'm dropped on Skunk2s with stock struts, believe me you will not NEED a sway bar. The lowered suspension will overpower the stock Dunlops pretty easily. And if you are not careful about watching the condition of your tread snap over steer will rear its ugly head. If you are not a seasoned driver DO NOT get a sway bar and lowering springs all at once. It will be entirely too easy for you to over drive your car. By this I mean that you will find yourself going into corners carrying too much speed and when the cars attitude shifts from nuetral to understeer to snap over-steer in rapid sucession you won't have the talent to catch it. I don't mean this as an insult in any way, only as a warning. The Fits handling is pretty damn good stock, for a DD lowering springs will do everything you are looking for.

solbrothers · #9 (**permalink**) 10-20-2009, 02:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by grtpumpkin

I'm dropped on Skunk2s with stock struts, believe me you will not NEED a sway bar. The lowered suspension will overpower the stock Dunlops pretty easily. And if you are not careful about watching the condition of your tread snap over steer will rear its ugly head. If you are not a seasoned driver DO NOT get a sway bar and lowering springs all at once. It will be entirely too easy for you to over drive your car. By this I mean that you will find yourself going into corners carrying too much speed and when the cars attitude shifts from nuetral to understeer to snap over-steer in rapid sucession you won't have the talent to catch it. I don't mean this as an insult in any way, only as a warning. The Fits handling is pretty damn good stock, for a DD lowering springs will do everything you are looking for.

lolololololololol

the fit doesnt get snap oversteer. the fit is very controllable even when oversteering

grtpumpkin · #10 (**permalink**) 10-20-2009, 08:05 PM

I respectfully disagree. Mine has lapsed into wicked snap oversteer on three or four occasions, all in the rain. Once on stock Dunlops, the other three on the Neo-gens. It could very well be my choice of tires that is the problem but I kinda doubt it. I have found that the Fit will understeer very gradually and controllably however with the lower suspension.

macbuddy · #11 (**permalink**) 10-20-2009, 08:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by inxsole

Okay, here again another question. this time about lowering a car and stabilization.
Here we go...

-I'm going to purchase some skunk2 springs and I wanted to know if i were to drop my car with the springs... how important is it to have a sway bar, and a strut bar. Would a tie bar be as good, or would a sway bar be best. If i do need a sway bar, would it be best to have it installed at the same time as the springs?

inxsole,
I originally installed the RSB with only the OEM springs, and I felt that the handling was much improved. Several months later, I added a set of Skunk2 lowering springs in hopes of improving the handling, and to achieve a nice "drop." I liked the drop, and the Skunk2 springs felt great on smooth roads. The trade off was that the combination of the two was way too harsh for "me" on rough road surfaces. I'd say that if you want a "drop," good handling, and an "acceptable" ride, try just going with the lowering springs alone. If you want surprisingly improved handling, and a comfortable ride, go with just the RSB. If you want a nice "drop," great handling, and can stand to live with an extremely harsh, jarring ride, then go with both.
If you do go with both, and feel that the ride is indeed too harsh, you can try keeping the front lowering springs in place, and reinstalling the OEM rear springs. Doing so gave my Fit a pronounced "rake," very good handling, and an acceptable ride. The handling fits my driving style, very neutral, and predictable. I only once experienced a bit too much oversteer, when I tried pushing the Fit way too hard during an AutoX event.

BTW, I have since gone with Megan Coilovers in concert with the RSB. Although my Fit still does not ride and handle like a fine German car, it does feel much better than with the Skunk2/Progress RSB combination.
Note: In an attempt to improve the ride of the Megan Coilover set up, I changed out the Megan 220 lb/in rear springs for a set of 150 lb/in Eibach coilover springs. Doing so improved the ride quite a bit, and the handling still keeps me smiling!

Previc93 · #12 (**permalink**) 10-22-2009, 07:36 PM

im not lowered yet but i have the progress rear sway bar and i noticed a huge difference while driving hard. i think the rear sway bar is well worth the money.

mahout · #13 (**permalink**) 10-22-2009, 08:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by solbrothers

lolololololololol

the fit doesnt get snap oversteer. the fit is very controllable even when oversteering

If you install too stiff rear springs and add a rear antisway bar you will get snap oversteer. Fits improve handling by reducing understeer at the front with the softest but shorter springs front and rear. When you lower you automatically have stiffer sprengd; the trick is not to overdo it. Thats why we recommend a maximum a drop of about 1" lowering followed by removing front antisway or substituting a weaker one or by adding a rear bar of not too great strength instead of the front bar.

junktea1 · #14 (**permalink**) 10-22-2009, 08:29 PM

Agree. Disagree. I've installed a J's Racing Front Strut Bar, T1R F Sway Bar (its really a Cusco copy), J's Racing Lower Arm Bar, and I really noticed a difference. Its subtle but you will notice it.

The rear is a different story. Doesn't quite match up to the front.

mahout · #15 (**permalink**) 10-23-2009, 08:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by junktea1

Agree. Disagree. I've installed a J's Racing Front Strut Bar, T1R F Sway Bar (its really a Cusco copy), J's Racing Lower Arm Bar, and I really noticed a difference. Its subtle but you will notice it.

The rear is a different story. Doesn't quite match up to the front.

So you increased understeer and because you have less lean you think it handles better? In return for less lean you reduced cornering power as the inside wheel looses traction much sooner than it did before. If you drie very hard you may notice considerably greater front tire wear too.
If you used a stopwatch instead of 'feel' you'd know better.

junktea1 · #16 (**permalink**) 10-23-2009, 04:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mahout

So you increased understeer and because you have less lean you think it handles better? In return for less lean you reduced cornering power as the inside wheel looses traction much sooner than it did before. If you drie very hard you may notice considerably greater front tire wear too.
If you used a stopwatch instead of 'feel' you'd know better.

Prove it. Let's see your statistics Speed Racer.

mahout · #17 (**permalink**) 10-23-2009, 11:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by junktea1

Prove it. Let's see your statistics Speed Racer.

Countless race notebooks always show that the stiffer the antisway bar the easier it is ti lift the inside wheel because as the outside wheel spring is compressed the inside wheel spring is compressed, just not as much due the antisway bar stiffness. Whenever the inside wheel tire traction is reduced the overall cornering power is reduced. Simple physics: the more the cornering force due to velocity is applied to a higher center of gravity than the tire the more easily the inside tire reduces traction. The quicker the loss of traction the quicker the tire slides and cornering is lost. And the increase in weight on the outside tire quickly overpower the tire traction ability. Outside loses traction because it has not enugh traction ability whikle the inside loses tractuion because the area of contact between the road and tire is decreased.
Lean is not all bad; some lean (aka softness) is needed to keep as much of the tire in contact with the road as possible. Making the whole chassis a big block means the cornering force which the centrifugal force applied to the center of gravity leans the whole 'block' inside wheels up so your cornering on 2 or 3 tires, Tires dcevelop cornering power; centrifugal force develors cornering load. They have to balance for the best handlingand that means at both ends of the vehicle.
And spring stiffness is needed to let thre tire follow the road surface on both sides of the car. Sway bars balance the front to the rear. Golfs had that funny 3 legged cornering stance because the rear traction on 1 tire balanced the traction on 2 front tires and those Golfs actually were 4 wheel drifted. The trick is to get the srings just soft enough to keep good contact and just enough anti-lean as practical to keep the inside tire on the ground as long as possible at each end of the chassis. Complicated as all get out, which is why all vehicles aren;t equal.
That help? I can quote results from one book but all the booka are different because they are all different cars,
NASCAR teams have the same, Thats why Jimmie is quicker than Jeff. Chad has the better book,

TheFitman · #18 (**permalink**) 10-23-2009, 11:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OutkastGS3

none of the bars do anything!!! i have them all

I'm on skunk2 right now with the sway and struts, can barely notice any difference

really?

unless u drive fast u wont feel a thing (except the coils)

inxsole · #19 (**permalink**) 10-23-2009, 11:24 PM

wow, I think i made a pretty good thread. I already ordered the Skunk2 springs, they're coming in ... I dont know when. Whenever they process and ship. But the thing about the sway bar. I will actually wait on that and see how my driving is without it. Then demo a progress one from somebody I know and see if I feel more comfortable with it.

Otherwise, thanks everybody for the replies and continue debating about this topic because its pretty interesting.

junktea1 · #20 (**permalink**) 10-23-2009, 11:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mahout

Countless race notebooks always show that the stiffer the antisway bar the easier it is ti lift the inside wheel because as the outside wheel spring is compressed the inside wheel spring is compressed, just not as much due the antisway bar stiffness. Whenever the inside wheel tire traction is reduced the overall cornering power is reduced. Simple physics: the more the cornering force due to velocity is applied to a higher center of gravity than the tire the more easily the inside tire reduces traction. The quicker the loss of traction the quicker the tire slides and cornering is lost. And the increase in weight on the outside tire quickly overpower the tire traction ability. Outside loses traction because it has not enugh traction ability whikle the inside loses tractuion because the area of contact between the road and tire is decreased.
Lean is not all bad; some lean (aka softness) is needed to keep as much of the tire in contact with the road as possible. Making the whole chassis a big block means the cornering force which the centrifugal force applied to the center of gravity leans the whole 'block' inside wheels up so your cornering on 2 or 3 tires, Tires dcevelop cornering power; centrifugal force develors cornering load. They have to balance for the best handlingand that means at both ends of the vehicle.
And spring stiffness is needed to let thre tire follow the road surface on both sides of the car. Sway bars balance the front to the rear. Golfs had that funny 3 legged cornering stance because the rear traction on 1 tire balanced the traction on 2 front tires and those Golfs actually were 4 wheel drifted. The trick is to get the srings just soft enough to keep good contact and just enough anti-lean as practical to keep the inside tire on the ground as long as possible at each end of the chassis. Complicated as all get out, which is why all vehicles aren;t equal.
That help? I can quote results from one book but all the booka are different because they are all different cars,
NASCAR teams have the same, Thats why Jimmie is quicker than Jeff. Chad has the better book,

Again your not quoting any references. Let's separate fact from opinion.

My car handles great in corners now, but its starting to feel like a drift car as the rear doesn't match the front. The rear only has a J's rear strut bar & J's c-pillar bar.

I'm going to add possibly a Progress rear sway bar or Carbing rear frame brace. I have yet to install coilovers or sport struts/springs.