are pulleys worth it? - Unofficial Honda FIT Forums


2nd Gen GE8 Specific Fit Engine Modifications, Motor Swaps, ECU Tuning Sub-Forum Threads discussing engine mods/swaps/tuning for the 2nd generation GE8 Honda Fit.

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  #1  
Old 03-01-2010, 08:08 PM
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Question are pulleys worth it?

i was just wondering if you can actually tell a difference? also i have been told that they can mess up your engine if you dont have a harmonic balancer?? does the l15a have one?
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Old 03-01-2010, 08:38 PM
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yes it does have one. and no they are not worth the money. better off getting lighter flywheel and keeping the crank balanced.
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Old 03-02-2010, 04:49 PM
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^^ I agree. The cranckshaft pulley can mess up the cranckshaft tolerances and not worth it. A lightweight flywheel on the otherhand is an excellent mod. I have one on my Honda Prelude and it makes a world of a difference.
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Old 03-03-2010, 03:51 PM
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The pulleys are fine, like mine alot.
Honda cranks are internally balanced, no stock honda pulley is used to balance the engine.
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Old 03-03-2010, 03:58 PM
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I know someone did a intense review on crank pulleys before and the test car was a Honda but I can't remember which one. The engine was fully rebuilt to stock spec and then driven for 10k miles with the new lightweight crank pulley added. After the 10k miles, the engine was pulled apart again and thoroughly inspected. All the tolerances, bearings, etc were inspected and the conclusion was the amount of wear and teat that was observed would be from a car who has driven around 20-30k miles which is more than what the car actually drove. So the conclusion was that under drive crank pulleys can wear down bearings and internals faster. If I can find the article I will post it up.
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Old 03-03-2010, 04:41 PM
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from an engine builder on the Toyota forums

Quote:
MotoIQ wrote: From a lot of experience building actual racing engines, building winning racecars and building winning and reliable race cars I can tell you that a solid hub underdrive pulley is not likely to cause engine failure in a modern mildly modified 4 cylinder engine.

My qualifications are that I was an engineer at TRD many years ago, I was an OEM engineer at Nissan spending the last several years working on the Nismo project and am now a motorsports engineering consultant. I have been an automotive and motorsports engineer for 20 years. I also happen to be a consultant for the Jackson Dawson team.

On a relatively under stressed near stock motor like the TC with bolt ons or low amounts of boost like what we will be running and I suspect what most of the people on this forum probably run, an underdrive pulley will not have any life threatening consequences for your motors. The factory pulley with a twin ring damper is primarily for wide band NVH (noise vibration harshness) suppression from the engine and driveline. Removing the damper and replacing it with a solid hub underdrive pulley will cause additional NVH but not harm the engine.

The engineering reasons are that an inline 4 cylinder engine has a short stiff strong crank with a relatively high natural frequency. The dangerous second harmonic that can cause damage occurs at an rpm that this sort of engine will never see, in the area of 9500 rpm.

Now the stock harmonic damper is not tuned for attenuation at this sort of rpm either so the argument is somewhat of a moot point.

Now 4 cylinders that are pushing the limit with lots of revs, wimpy cranks, super long strokes, lots of boost and dwelling in the upper rpm ranges for long periods of time can benefit from a damper designed to deal with this sort of operation but our engine is not like this due to rules contraints and probably very few people with this motor on this forum push the envelope that hard.

The tC engine has a strong and stiff bottom end that is overbuilt if anything for our intended use. It has an internally balanced crankshaft, It has a chain driven oil pump which is less like to break due to torsional vibration. Nothing is going to happen, not even in our road raced tC. Road racing is much more punishing on an engine than other motorsports. The engine is subjected to run times lasting anywhere from 20 to 45 minutes with the engine always in the upper ranges of its rpm limit. One race weekend is the equivelent of hundreds of 1/4 mile passes.

Some engines like the Nissan SR20 have to have an underdrive pulley to live at all under race conditions as the water pump cavitates at a low rpm. All SE-R Cup cars and probably most professional drift S chassis cars run an underdrive pulley. I can tell you that SE-R Cup cars are very relaible with engines lasting several seasons sometimes. The one in my car has lasted about 2.5 seasons and is still going strong. My personal 529 whp turbo SE-R has an underdrive pulley. I don't know of an SR engine that has failed due to a pulley. I know several guys that have had them for 200,000 miles.

The same goes for the VG, VQ, QR and GA engines. Many World Challenge race cars use under drive pulleys.

Is an underdrive pulley harmless to all engines? No it is not. Inline six cylinders when modified way past the simple bolt on stages will probably have problems. These engines reach critical harmonics at lower rpm due to the length of the crankshaft, this is in the 7500 rpm range, an rpm often reached by a performance engine. Now a BPU Supra or other mildly modded inline six will most likely be fine but one subjected to high rpm for long periods of time with lots of boost will probably suffer. In this case , the stock damper is probably not adequate either. In my experience with I-6 Nissan RB engines the oil pump inner gear cracks first due to crank whip. For serious I-6 motors I use ATI or Fisher dampers. Crazy stroked out B series Honda motors with strokes approaching 100 mm will also crack their oil pump gears and racing Nissan KA motors crack blocks. These motors need to have the revs limited, dry sumps and other special prep to deal with vibration in extreme full race use in very highly modifed form. American V8 engines ARE often externally balanced and it is critical not to use a solid hub pulley not designed for this application or damage to the engine will result.

Our tC engine and most people's here have motors that do not fall into the above category. Rest assured that your engine will not blow up and die or have a reduced life in street and even racing use with these parts. Will you notice more noise from the drive train and front end accessories, yes possibly.

I would bet that every "expert" that tells you otherwise here has little personal practical experience with the subject.


,I've used light weight pulleys several times before no issues and having read practically everything ever posted on the net about pulleys I am not worried.

Last edited by Tork; 03-03-2010 at 04:54 PM.
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Old 03-03-2010, 07:50 PM
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I'm running a crank & alternator pulley for many years, and have done so for the past 10yrs on all my honda's, never a problem, also my fit runs smoother! No extra NVH!!!
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Old 03-03-2010, 08:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimmy101 View Post
I'm running a crank & alternator pulley for many years, and have done so for the past 10yrs on all my honda's, never a problem, also my fit runs smoother! No extra NVH!!!
I agree no extra NHV what so ever. And first impression after install was smoother.
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Old 03-03-2010, 09:32 PM
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not worth the money premature bearing wear. if it was intended to have a lighter pulley it would. now for the person or persons who is smarter than the honda technicians. lets hear your 2 cents
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Old 03-09-2010, 03:34 AM
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light weight cranckshaft pulleys will void your Honda warranty. What's the hp gain? 1-2 hp gain probably. Will you wreck your motor over a tiny 1-2 hp gain?
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  #11  
Old 03-09-2010, 06:05 PM
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I am not sure about the wear to the engine but I had one installed since 08 and I have not issues with it so far. It helped the acceleration a bit so a slow car like mine, I think it's worth it.
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  #12  
Old 03-18-2010, 12:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tork View Post
I've used light weight pulleys several times before no issues and having read practically everything ever posted on the net about pulleys I am not worried.
Have one installed since day one on my 1997 DOHC Neon.... Still running strong, something like 100 000km later!!

If i remember, 2.2l OHV GM engines (non ecotec!) in 2002 and earlier Cavalier and Sunfire doesn't even have a damper... just a pulley bolted right up on the crank... some of those fail at 50 000km, some other outlast Japanese engines....

Marko!!
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Old 03-18-2010, 02:07 AM
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Who made it past 100,000 with a light weight pulley on a honda?
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  #14  
Old 03-29-2010, 11:33 PM
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Just to put some more oil on the fire!!

Quote:
From Mike Kojima
There is some controversy about the pulleys, as they are not equipped with the harmonic balancer that the stock pulley has. We feel the risk of removing the balancer on certain engines is not really a risk. Inline, four-cylinder engines for the most part have short, stiff crankshafts. These do not need a balancer as much, because of their high natural frequency. Engines with long, whip-like cranks, like inline six-cylinders, need balancers to prevent failure, but most four cylinders do fine without them.

Nissan four cylinders, with the exception of the long stroke, vibration-prone KA24, can do fine without a balancer. We have had underdrive pulleys on many SR20 engines, some with more than 1,000 track miles, with no problem whatsoever. Nissan four cylinders are also internally balanced, which reduces the need for a harmonic balancer. Many cheaper engines, on the other hand, need to have a built-in imbalance on the pulley to make up for a lack of an internal counterweight. Like the SR20 engine, the GA16 engine actually felt smoother and revved more freely with the underdrive pulley installed.
Marko!
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Old 05-16-2010, 05:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xm8 View Post
Who made it past 100,000 with a light weight pulley on a honda?
I am closing in on 100,000 miles on my TSX and have a full Unorthodox Racing pulley set on it. There are several guys on TSXclub and acurazine that have gone well over 100K miles on there K-series and have had no problems. I know for a fact that all K-series engines are internally balanced.
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Old 05-16-2010, 06:23 PM
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I've installed a Performance Cam yeaterday on a friends VW Sirocco... Guess what?? No Damper from Factory and the motor has over 400k km on it!!

Marko!
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Old 05-17-2010, 01:32 AM
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I agree, not here on FF obviously, but plenty of other Honda model forums DO have guys post up 100K and + with no issues with solid crank pulley

Note: stock is a DAMPER not a balancer, Honda engines are internally balanced.

Dampers have issues, they are a hub, 3/32" of rubber, and a belt pulley.
at 20k miles due to heat and age, they stop doing their job which is mainly dampen the drive accessories from NHV.
at 40K+ miles they can become eccentric, and cause vibration.
at 60K+ the rubber can fail and cause separation of the 2 parts, stranding you and flying off causing damage.


Last edited by Tork; 05-17-2010 at 01:40 AM.
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  #18  
Old 11-29-2010, 09:59 PM
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This is interesting!

UR

Marko!!
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Old 11-29-2010, 11:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimmy101 View Post
I'm running a crank & alternator pulley for many years, and have done so for the past 10yrs on all my honda's, never a problem, also my fit runs smoother! No extra NVH!!!

Same here on over 8 different Honda's (track cars and DD's) for the last 10+ years and not a single problem. People will always disagree on this topic. I prefer to draw from my own actual real life experience

Edit: We're also talking about a fit here I mean it's a 1.5 ltr engine that has a short crankshaft. I just don't see how there would be a real problem. Now is it worth it? Well that all depends on the owner. Realize that your audio, climate controls and other accessories will be affected to some degree. I personally will be adding them to my Fit.

Last edited by bmxman; 11-29-2010 at 11:50 PM.
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Old 11-30-2010, 02:30 PM
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since UR has stopped production on pulley sets for the fit... what's an alternative?
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