new flywheel and check engine light
#1
04-24-2013, 05:21 PM
new flywheel and check engine light
09 sport with k&n intake, axle back hks exhaust, little else. installed new clutch masters fx200 flywheel and clutch recently. check engine and limp mode with light load at cruising (65-70+mph). miss fire in all four cylinders. checked and adjusted valves and installed new (oem) plugs. no help. anyone?
#5
04-24-2013, 09:45 PM
misfire detection is a function of crankshaft speed. It could be the lighter flywheel is causing poor crank momentum and it's flagging this as misfires. Or maybe the crankshaft position sensor was damaged during the install.
Try clearing the code. How fast does it come back? How long did it take to come on the first time? What does the maker of the flywheel say? I'm over my head.
source
Try clearing the code. How fast does it come back? How long did it take to come on the first time? What does the maker of the flywheel say? I'm over my head.
One of the drawbacks of using a crank sensor to detect misfires is that it can sometimes be fooled by normal powertrain vibrations. Driving on a rough road, for example, may produce variations in crank speed that seem like misfires but are not. Some OBD II systems monitor inputs from the ABS wheel speed sensors to tell when a vehicle is driving on a rough road, and disable misfire detection until the road smoothes out.
Last edited by Steve244; 04-24-2013 at 09:48 PM.
#7
04-25-2013, 03:59 AM
One sensor or another was not hooked up or hooked up incorrectly. If it was running good when you brought it in it should still be running good if everything was done correctly.
Simply changing the flywheel will NOT effect any of the sensors or the ECM.
Simply changing the flywheel will NOT effect any of the sensors or the ECM.
#8
04-25-2013, 11:25 PM
09 sport with k&n intake, axle back hks exhaust, little else. installed new clutch masters fx200 flywheel and clutch recently. check engine and limp mode with light load at cruising (65-70+mph). miss fire in all four cylinders. checked and adjusted valves and installed new (oem) plugs. no help. anyone?
If it started after the flywheel or even the clutch replacement, check the crankshaft/valve orientation. If it wasn't precisely installed the timing could be off enough to cause your observatyion because you didn't match the flywheel posiution to the crankshaft/valve train.With the crank pulley indicating TDC you can meaure the position of the #1 piston by rotating the crank back and forth to see if the piston was really at TDC.
With the pioston at TDC check the valve gear fort correct position too.
For checking you can use #1 easiest.
I suggest yiou get a shop manual for guidance and you need a precise depth gage to check TDC of the piston.
PS don't use the ignition timing mark. Its the TDC mark you want to use.
And I'd check the valve gear to proper position at TDC first. Its easiest and probably the most likely. And if they're OK check the valves for being closed on #1 piston. If there's no free play on either valve recheck all settings and valve positions. While you're at it check the tensioner too.
If its loose that could be how the timing was changed.
And this is one of those operations that a dealer or good independent mechanic is the proper solution.
#10
04-26-2013, 11:45 AM
True, just pulling thre transmission, replacing the flywheel, and installing new clutch should not affect the crankshaft but the possibility exists for misaligning the gears because of the slop in the timing gear and the tensioner when its re-installed..
If you want to isolate the fault, checking the crankshaft and valve alignment is the best technique. Yes, its a pain in the butt, but all that poor running appears to us to be related to mistiming and thats a function of the valve tinming and thus crankshaft relation to valve action.
The CEL may indiucate the misfire is occurring but won't point to why.
We thought, as another poster said, perhaps the flywheel is now so light that the engine cannot turn over smoothly enough to let the sensors act repeatedly enough. we've never experienced that modifying engines but perhaps we are too conservative.
Just how much lighter than the OEM flywheel was the replacement one.
Flywheels are needed to smooth out the rotation and that requires enough weigth to be effective.. Indeed if your new flywheel is so light that the rotation is erratic, thanks to the periodic thrust to the crankshaft being repeated rather than comtinuous it is a viable concern.
cheers.
#11
04-26-2013, 11:59 AM
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Chicago, Illinois
Posts: 4,424
Also.. on occasion the change in rotating mass is enough that the engine can have difficulty catching its' self when you disengage the clutch and coast into a stop.
The solution in many cases is to increase the threshold for when the injectors restart to help it catch its' self. This is referred to as "Coasting Fuel Cut Offset" by some manufacturers. Or you can simulate the Idle Switch from Throttle Position instead of using the actual momentary switch.
More rarely the solution was to either simply adjust the idle rpm higher, or allow the engine greater maximum ignition advance in that area of the map so it can create more torque to accelerate the flywheel when it does try to "catch"
Or a combination of the above, but usually that much is not required unless there is a lot going on.. This is of course if there were no mechanical timing issues as described by mahout.
The configurations that have required that much were typically running very light flywheels with very light clutch assemblies, both of small major diameter with much of the mass close to the hub. A very large cam(s) with high spring rates, mechanical fuel and vacuum pumps, HO alternators with small pulleys, etc can contribute to this as well by increasing the parasitic frictional losses at the crank.
The solution in many cases is to increase the threshold for when the injectors restart to help it catch its' self. This is referred to as "Coasting Fuel Cut Offset" by some manufacturers. Or you can simulate the Idle Switch from Throttle Position instead of using the actual momentary switch.
More rarely the solution was to either simply adjust the idle rpm higher, or allow the engine greater maximum ignition advance in that area of the map so it can create more torque to accelerate the flywheel when it does try to "catch"
Or a combination of the above, but usually that much is not required unless there is a lot going on.. This is of course if there were no mechanical timing issues as described by mahout.
The configurations that have required that much were typically running very light flywheels with very light clutch assemblies, both of small major diameter with much of the mass close to the hub. A very large cam(s) with high spring rates, mechanical fuel and vacuum pumps, HO alternators with small pulleys, etc can contribute to this as well by increasing the parasitic frictional losses at the crank.
Last edited by DiamondStarMonsters; 04-26-2013 at 12:02 PM.
#12
04-27-2013, 12:41 AM
True, just pulling thre transmission, replacing the flywheel, and installing new clutch should not affect the crankshaft but the possibility exists for misaligning the gears because of the slop in the timing gear and the tensioner when its re-installed..
If you want to isolate the fault, checking the crankshaft and valve alignment is the best technique. Yes, its a pain in the butt, but all that poor running appears to us to be related to mistiming and thats a function of the valve tinming and thus crankshaft relation to valve action.
Flywheels are needed to smooth out the rotation and that requires enough weigth to be effective.. Indeed if your new flywheel is so light that the rotation is erratic, thanks to the periodic thrust to the crankshaft being repeated rather than comtinuous it is a viable concern.
cheers.
If you want to isolate the fault, checking the crankshaft and valve alignment is the best technique. Yes, its a pain in the butt, but all that poor running appears to us to be related to mistiming and thats a function of the valve tinming and thus crankshaft relation to valve action.
Flywheels are needed to smooth out the rotation and that requires enough weigth to be effective.. Indeed if your new flywheel is so light that the rotation is erratic, thanks to the periodic thrust to the crankshaft being repeated rather than comtinuous it is a viable concern.
cheers.
And a new flywheel and clutch will NOT cause misfiring they have NO relation to misfires at all.
#13
04-27-2013, 12:57 AM
Also.. on occasion the change in rotating mass is enough that the engine can have difficulty catching its' self when you disengage the clutch and coast into a stop.
The solution in many cases is to increase the threshold for when the injectors restart to help it catch its' self. This is referred to as "Coasting Fuel Cut Offset" by some manufacturers. Or you can simulate the Idle Switch from Throttle Position instead of using the actual momentary switch.
More rarely the solution was to either simply adjust the idle rpm higher, or allow the engine greater maximum ignition advance in that area of the map so it can create more torque to accelerate the flywheel when it does try to "catch"
Or a combination of the above, but usually that much is not required unless there is a lot going on.. This is of course if there were no mechanical timing issues as described by mahout.
The configurations that have required that much were typically running very light flywheels with very light clutch assemblies, both of small major diameter with much of the mass close to the hub. A very large cam(s) with high spring rates, mechanical fuel and vacuum pumps, HO alternators with small pulleys, etc can contribute to this as well by increasing the parasitic frictional losses at the crank.
The solution in many cases is to increase the threshold for when the injectors restart to help it catch its' self. This is referred to as "Coasting Fuel Cut Offset" by some manufacturers. Or you can simulate the Idle Switch from Throttle Position instead of using the actual momentary switch.
More rarely the solution was to either simply adjust the idle rpm higher, or allow the engine greater maximum ignition advance in that area of the map so it can create more torque to accelerate the flywheel when it does try to "catch"
Or a combination of the above, but usually that much is not required unless there is a lot going on.. This is of course if there were no mechanical timing issues as described by mahout.
The configurations that have required that much were typically running very light flywheels with very light clutch assemblies, both of small major diameter with much of the mass close to the hub. A very large cam(s) with high spring rates, mechanical fuel and vacuum pumps, HO alternators with small pulleys, etc can contribute to this as well by increasing the parasitic frictional losses at the crank.
More GUESSING gobbledegook from the master of it. All that writing and you have said NOTHING to do with this problem. The OP has a misfiring problem which is RELATED TO THE CLUTCH AND FLYWHEEL CHANGE.
And you still don't know that there can be NO MECHANICAL TIMING ISSUES involved in a simple clutch and flywheel change. Not one part of the timing system needs to be touched to change the flywheel not one nada zip zero zilch. You should know already all the timing system components are located on the OPPOSITE END OF THE ENGINE from the clutch flywheel end of the engine.
You really need to learn the basics of an internal combustion engine before you throw around advice that is INCORRECT.
All that you wrote is bullfeathers concerning this problem. The OP has a misfire problem after a simple MECHANICAL PART CHANGE the car ran fine before this change correct get it yet.
Using Occam's razor, and or plain old common sense, or mechanical knowledge anybody, with a modicum of mechanical knowledge, would know that no electronic or electrical parts were changed in this clutch change ergo the problem comes from the mechanic doing the job re-installing INCORRECTLY (or damaging) any of the many parts that were removed to do the job.
Last edited by loudbang; 04-27-2013 at 01:04 AM.
#14
04-27-2013, 04:19 AM
Ok put on my professor's hat for a minute. Lets think about this logically for a minute.
Let's suppose the OP posted "I have just changed my clutch and now I have a misfire" does anybody think that people would be coming up with all the wild guesses and esoteric bullcrap that has been posted?
I for one don't think so.
So what is the difference? One thing and one thing only the inclusion of "lightweight flywheel".
So ok what is a lightweight flywheel you ask?
All ANY flywheel is on any type of engine, be it steam, water, diesel, or any internal combustion engine from a one cylinder lawnmower up to the biggest prostock engine around, is just A CHUNK OF METAL BOLTED to a crankshaft period. They can be made from a lot of different materials but that is not germane to this discussion.
OK what does it do? All they do is store and release energy to smooth out the pulses of the engine's different strokes so the power flow is more smooth THAT IS IT.
They use this store and release to help the car start out and can effect how the engine slows down so there is no abrupt slowing down if you release the gas pedal
OK some lawnmower engines have a magnet in them to trigger the ignition and they CAN be used with the proper senors installed for other things but on a normal ordinary Fit engine they are just storing and releasing energy while just sitting there spinning on the end of the crank.
They also are the point, at their outer edge, that the starter engages to start the engine. They also mount the clutch and transmit power to the transmission.
How do they work? Simple it is just a large chunk of metal spinning around gathering energy from centrifugal force (simply by spinning).
When the amount of energy it is gathering falls below the energy stored, like during the other three cycles beside the power stroke, on a 4 stroke engine, the stored up energy is just passed back into the crank to try and keep it spinning at the same speed.
In a Fit (and other regular cars) they have NO wiring, no sensors, nothing AND NO LUCKY CHARMS MAGIC. They are just a large chunk of metal that has absolutely no connection, magical, mechanical, or electrical to anything to do with the ignition or cam timing, or any timing or gears (except the starter gear) those systems are mounted on the OTHER END OF THE ENGINE in a Fit.
In the Fit the clutch is bolted to the flywheel and it too has absolutely no connection, magical, mechanical, or electrical to anything to do with the ignition or cam timing, or any timing or gears (except the starter gear).
So why do people use a lightweight flywheel?
Lightweight flywheels are used to allow the engine to rev and slow down quicker as it takes less energy to spin them to speed.
It really depends on the type of performance gain you are looking for as even heaver that stock flywheels can be used so it depends. But on a Fit they are mainly used to allow a quicker revving engine.
So can you figure out yet where this is going?
All the OP did (at first) was change the clutch and flywheel and IF the change was DONE PROPERLY the engine WILL run exactly as it did when the change started.
Changing the clutch and flywheel (if done correctly) is exactly like changing your lugnuts it SHOULD have no effect on how the engine runs (except revving and slowing down quicker) there is no connection to anything else.
So in the OP's case either something was not correctly re-connected or damaged OR the coilpacks decided to crash at this exact moment.
BUT the most compelling evidence is found right here on Fitfreak!!! Just do a search and look at all the threads of other members that made the switch to a lightweight or "different" from stock flywheel WITH NO PROBLEMS WHAT SO EVER. No changes to injectors, ECM, or timing and are working fine with no misfires.
Let's suppose the OP posted "I have just changed my clutch and now I have a misfire" does anybody think that people would be coming up with all the wild guesses and esoteric bullcrap that has been posted?
I for one don't think so.
So what is the difference? One thing and one thing only the inclusion of "lightweight flywheel".
So ok what is a lightweight flywheel you ask?
All ANY flywheel is on any type of engine, be it steam, water, diesel, or any internal combustion engine from a one cylinder lawnmower up to the biggest prostock engine around, is just A CHUNK OF METAL BOLTED to a crankshaft period. They can be made from a lot of different materials but that is not germane to this discussion.
OK what does it do? All they do is store and release energy to smooth out the pulses of the engine's different strokes so the power flow is more smooth THAT IS IT.
They use this store and release to help the car start out and can effect how the engine slows down so there is no abrupt slowing down if you release the gas pedal
OK some lawnmower engines have a magnet in them to trigger the ignition and they CAN be used with the proper senors installed for other things but on a normal ordinary Fit engine they are just storing and releasing energy while just sitting there spinning on the end of the crank.
They also are the point, at their outer edge, that the starter engages to start the engine. They also mount the clutch and transmit power to the transmission.
How do they work? Simple it is just a large chunk of metal spinning around gathering energy from centrifugal force (simply by spinning).
When the amount of energy it is gathering falls below the energy stored, like during the other three cycles beside the power stroke, on a 4 stroke engine, the stored up energy is just passed back into the crank to try and keep it spinning at the same speed.
In a Fit (and other regular cars) they have NO wiring, no sensors, nothing AND NO LUCKY CHARMS MAGIC. They are just a large chunk of metal that has absolutely no connection, magical, mechanical, or electrical to anything to do with the ignition or cam timing, or any timing or gears (except the starter gear) those systems are mounted on the OTHER END OF THE ENGINE in a Fit.
In the Fit the clutch is bolted to the flywheel and it too has absolutely no connection, magical, mechanical, or electrical to anything to do with the ignition or cam timing, or any timing or gears (except the starter gear).
So why do people use a lightweight flywheel?
Lightweight flywheels are used to allow the engine to rev and slow down quicker as it takes less energy to spin them to speed.
It really depends on the type of performance gain you are looking for as even heaver that stock flywheels can be used so it depends. But on a Fit they are mainly used to allow a quicker revving engine.
So can you figure out yet where this is going?
All the OP did (at first) was change the clutch and flywheel and IF the change was DONE PROPERLY the engine WILL run exactly as it did when the change started.
Changing the clutch and flywheel (if done correctly) is exactly like changing your lugnuts it SHOULD have no effect on how the engine runs (except revving and slowing down quicker) there is no connection to anything else.
So in the OP's case either something was not correctly re-connected or damaged OR the coilpacks decided to crash at this exact moment.
BUT the most compelling evidence is found right here on Fitfreak!!! Just do a search and look at all the threads of other members that made the switch to a lightweight or "different" from stock flywheel WITH NO PROBLEMS WHAT SO EVER. No changes to injectors, ECM, or timing and are working fine with no misfires.
Last edited by loudbang; 04-27-2013 at 05:47 AM.
#15
04-27-2013, 11:45 AM
Im going way oldschool honda here, but I bet you forgot to hook a ground back up.
Its a similar case to the ol thermostat grounds, wreaking havoc on the simplest of jobs
OP, look on the tail of your tranny, a lil behind the ecu and down.
Do you have a ground wire approx 6 inches long hooked up?
If not hook it up, pull the main negative off to reset computer, rehook after 5-10 minutes, and report back
Its a similar case to the ol thermostat grounds, wreaking havoc on the simplest of jobs
OP, look on the tail of your tranny, a lil behind the ecu and down.
Do you have a ground wire approx 6 inches long hooked up?
If not hook it up, pull the main negative off to reset computer, rehook after 5-10 minutes, and report back
#17
04-27-2013, 05:18 PM
sorry took so long to get back, new to site. problem is between 3000 and 3500 rpm with light to no load occurring mainly on highway as I or the cruise throttles back while cresting a hill. does not happen in spirited driving at any rpm. hondata thinks a harmonic vibration at that load and rpm is sending a false knock to the ecu which in turn shuts the cylinders down. they have no cure but say they are working on a reflash for the 09 which would cure the problem along with rev hang and other issues we may have. petition hondata. our cars are 4 years old. thanks for all the input. we will look at all possible solutions and let you know.
#19
04-29-2013, 06:27 AM
Funny all these other members found in a 5 minute search changed to lightweight flywheels and DON'T HAVE ANY MISFIRES OR ANY OTHER PROBLEM.
kelsodeez had one
https://www.fitfreak.net/forums/fit-...lywheel-2.html
last post
https://www.fitfreak.net/forums/2nd-...e8-136k-2.html
post 33 & 37
https://www.fitfreak.net/forums/fit-...y-wheel-2.html
https://www.fitfreak.net/forums/fit-...lutch-kit.html
kelsodeez had one
https://www.fitfreak.net/forums/fit-...lywheel-2.html
last post
https://www.fitfreak.net/forums/2nd-...e8-136k-2.html
post 33 & 37
https://www.fitfreak.net/forums/fit-...y-wheel-2.html
https://www.fitfreak.net/forums/fit-...lutch-kit.html
#20
05-23-2013, 06:06 AM
09 sport with k&n intake, axle back hks exhaust, little else. installed new clutch masters fx200 flywheel and clutch recently. check engine and limp mode with light load at cruising (65-70+mph). miss fire in all four cylinders. checked and adjusted valves and installed new (oem) plugs. no help. anyone?