Ok now everything has been purchased minus amp kits and a box for the sub which i have questions about later in this thread.

As many of you know I got a deal on these because a customer that had them order them (they dont carry Infinity) pulled out of the deal. The knew I wanted these and asked it i wanted them. I was like absolutely. These were 299.99/pr. I got them for 160/pr. Most here think its an odd move what im doing but there is one other member that did it as well. As I mentioned earlier I bought 2pr of component drivers. I did this because thats what the guy left the store needing to sell and per the music i listen to (EDM), its mostly highs/mid-bass. I also wanted anyone sitting in the back (I may do UBER on my downtime) to get the same/similar imaging as myself in the front.

Here is my question 1 for you guys. I've always used it but i need to reduce the amount/price of install. I was gonna not use DYNA-MAT. If i do, is there a cheaper alternative to matting the doors?

2nd question... The sub is the bottom of the line Alpine type-S 10. For the fit, which box would u use (ported- ive always had or sealed)?

Thank you Fit family.

 

if ur gonna go uber, then ill use a sealed box since its gonna be smaller. a ported box is gonna be much bigger and ud end up sacrificing your cargo space which is useful for ur passengers.

again since u say edm is mostly midbass, then u dont need a sub. but EDM has bass drops too and thats where the subs come in. if u can care less about the low bass, skip the sub and get a nice fat amp to power your components. ull be happier trust me.

 

I have a 75x4 amp for mids/highs and a 150x1 for sub. I'll do sealed then because need space for my wheelchair when i have a full car. My chair usually sits disassembled in the front seat. Thank you for opining.

Btw when on road trips ido listen to R&B /light rock/jazz which would benefit having some bottomend. I normally do an 8 but a friend gave me this 10.

 

yeah but for sealed u need more powa or it will sound like crap.

 

The type-s can only take 200watts rms 4ohm. the amp im using is and old but good mtx thunder 250x. real wattage is over 300.

 

No one has comment about not using dynamat to save some $$$? Ive always used it so i dont know what to expect w/o.

 

I got an mtx amp too. Miss those birth certificates.

 

There is cheaper sound deadner's out there but not much cheaper. They are all pretty expensive. In my fit I used rattletrap. Don't expect it to deaden any outside noises, you would really have to do the entire car. Mostly what you need to do is seal up your door so the back waves don't make it inside. The cheapest alternative would be Seal N Peel but keep in mind it stinks. In such applications you need to cover the Seal n Peel with plastic wrap and seal all the edges with duct tape so the tar based adhesive doesn't leak when it gets hot out. I would advise you look into RattleTrap, Fatmat..etc.

Also to note, sealed box subwoofers have about a -12db rolloff...so basically the lower the frequencies go, the less output they have. So on a graph such as BassBox Pro, you'll see a peak at 100 hz and a roll off as the bass goes down to where the graph looks like a mountain. This is why ported enclosures are popular, they are more efficient because for the same power, you can..in the right box design...get a much flatter response down to your tuning frequency. But if space is the main concern then this is irrelevant...just putting the info out there.

200 watts is Alpine's 24 hour tested and temperature approved rating. It can handle 300 watts all the same...probably more in a sealed box, music is dynamic so you're not literally pushing 300 watts all the time, only at max volume, if your gains is adjusted correctly, you have the proper power gauge wire, short ground to frame...etc. There are many factors that effect how much power your car will actually get to your amp...so ratings are only for ideal applications. However a hundred watts or so isn't even noticeable. It takes 10x's the power to get +10db's which is twice there perceivable loudness. Twice the power just to get roughly +3db's which is the difference of having 2 speakers in front of you and taking one away...that's a 3db difference. Not drastic but noticeable....so wether amp puts out 200 watts or 350 watts is moot when a target of say 40hz goes from -12 to -10, with most of your music data in the 80-100 hz being so much louder, makes it even less perceivable.

 

Thank you for that. I'm well informed with car/home audio. I'm just very interested on steps/plans my fitfreak.net family would take. That said i must do sealed so i have room to put my ♿ in the back if I have friends riding with me. Now for my next question and it's complex so really guys take your time reading/opining to this.

When I listen to music, I like for the day to sound like it's coming from everywhere. So should I run my needs and has a full range or leave them at high pass that's the question I have.

I also have a pa-c loc. It has gain knobs on the LOC so where do I put the gain on the amp? IPad audio control locz previously but they were expensive at the start of my budget for now. Thank you for any help you can give. Also I do all my audio dressing using a real CD usually plan things like classical music or jazz so get the full range of audio frequency. What do you guys think about that. Thank you. If you have any other questions about what I have and what I'm putting in the car please ask cuz every little thing may change your opinion of what you think I should do okay thank you again.

 

Normally you would use (well ideally and oscilloscope) a DMM on your RCA's that go to your amp...after your LOC...to read the voltage. You can max out the LOC gains if you want or use 75% if you suspect it might introduce too much floor noise but it probably will just output the full voltage that your HU puts out. Then you adjust your gain based off that...there is charts online like this http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e3...mschartpm5.jpg
however, this will not yield the optimal output...usually the volume will sound too low.
Remember music is dynamic, so test tone's are really not very good, mainly you want to avoid clipping though.

There really is no simple here. Ideally you would first plot your music in Audacity using the "plot" feature for some of your music...get an average of where your music peaks at. So if your music peaked at say 79hz then you might use a -5 db test tone at 60hz. But that's over complicating things.

What most enthusiasts actually do is they end up using their ears with their head units set to 75% volume. They usually first use SMD tool/ DMM or Oscilloscope to check clipping, then they will tweak the gain by ear. Most people don't max out their volume full tilt anyway and most music doesn't push clipping that much either unless you turned the gain up way too high. Just adjust and listen carefully for any kind of harshness, it might take some time and comparisons using your favorite music.

I didn't understand your first question but most people want their audio to have a front stage. If you prefer all around you, then use your rear speakers as fill by adjusting your fader, but put focus on your fronts so you can draw in mid bass and ideally tweak to get your sub to sound more omnidirectional so it's not so focused behind you.

As for highpass/lowpass, Just don't use both your amp and your HU's high/low at the same time...causes phase distortion. So set your amps to full range or vice versa but not both.
You should cross over your fronts and subs. If not, your subs and your mid bass will try to produce the same mid bass frequencies...such as 80-150hz. That will make it sound muddy because they are 2 different kind of speakers, size and power trying to create those frequencies at the same time....so cross them over, I use 80hz for my subs and 80hz cutoff for my mids so that the subs don't go over 80 hertz and your mids don't go under 80 hz.

hope that helps.

 

Ok I left a big peice out. I'm running all this from stock navigation hence why Im using an loc. As for sound my phone was spelling words wrong. I'm asking if I should go full range because I like the system as if u can't tell where the sub is in the car just like home theater systems. As far as setting up the gains. Audio Control rep walked me through the LC7. Pull RCA's from the amp, turn deck volume to 3/4th mark (volume at 30 in Hondas case) then use the gains on the processor. Turn the dials down, plug RCA's back in, and turn the gains up on the processor until clipping the dial back a tad. But the LC7 had lights when clipping. What does clipping sound like? Thank you for your assistance.

 

Ah, your using the LC7, got ya. I thought you had a basic LOC of sort. That should help negate your stock units built in processing where they often lower the bass output as the volume rises. Also usually Audio control units line drive where they boost the input voltage to the amp to help lower noise floor...this helps keep you from having to turn up the gains on your amp...again, noise floor thing, not really much of an issue usually anyway these days.

Now with that sealed box, I would have preferred you got the LCQ with the built in EQ, that would help you adjust and flatten out the frequency response of your sub along with more tweaking options for you fronts but we'll work with what ya got.

Clipping happens when you overdrive your amp beyond it's capacity. What it sounds like may be described differently depending who you ask but I would say the highs sound harsh and the lows sound tubby or fluttery.
Listen to this, probably will help you better.

When you say full range, I'm not sure exactly what your meaning. What is your entire system consist of? So you have a sealed sub and what kind of amp(s)? 4 channel single amp, two amps? But driving your subs full range won't help if that's what your asking.

If your wanting your subs to sound like a home theater, that's going to require a few things. You definitely want some good mid bass up front or some kind of small sub up front to focus the deepest bass towards the front. You also need signal delay to raise the soundstage. It's not the easiest thing to achieve mind you. Competitors do this by having large mid bass drivers in their doors and modifying things.
Also important, you need to blend in your subs output with your fronts. Meaning you may have to fade them (turn gain down) from it's optimal position. Again with a sealed box, this part might prove difficult, you really need those deeper frequencies (30-50 hz) to be more prominent. Since you have that roll off we talked about earlier, your 50-80 hz range is going to be too prominent for this to be effective.
The DQ-61 might have helped you in this regard as it has signal delay. But tweaking is the hardest part.

Alternatively, you could add an underseat, powered subwoofer under your passenger seat. Ideally under your dash somehow. That will help de-localize the bass, you just have one more thing to tweak and blend in is all. Don't use it under your seat since it only creates another strict localization point...again, a very small one under your dash would be great if possible.

If those aren't options you wish to attempt then I have my last resort suggestion for you to try. Turn down your subwoofer. Turn up the bass boost on your stock HU or tweak the bass settings of your LC7...never used it so I'm not sure what it has exactly.....This will increase your mid bass on your fronts of course. Next, Re-adjust your gains to allow for this bass boost. Otherwise clipping happens sooner at lower volume.
Now gradually turn up the subwoofer gain....listen carefully, you want just enough bass to blend in, but not so much that it starts to localize to you it's location.

Ultimately, perhaps in a future upgrade for you to keep in mind, I normally recommend replacing stock HU's and focusing a budget directed at your front component speakers...good front speakers are pretty important. You don't have to spend a fortune but expect around $200 for something decent. Make sure you use a foam surround between your mid bass driver and your interior door panel so that all the front waves are directed into your car and all back waves are in the door. You also would probably want a processor such as the Rockford Fosgate 360 or Audison Bit one/ten...they provide tons of tweaking options to help any deficiencies you otherwise have, especially in regards to small subwoofer boxes and also help flatten out frequency drops/rises due to vehicular acoustics.

And again, something else to keep in mind if you ever upgrade again, the brand of subwoofer actually doesn't matter as much as people make it out to be, most of good sub bass is in your box design and tweaking. Now with small subs, you do want a decent one, I mean you don't want a Boss brand or anything that will distort or bottom out too easily, just saying focus on a sub that will work in the type of box you want. Some people spend way too much on subs only to boom, boom louder while their sound quality suffers. Multiple subs and lots of power certainly help bring out those deep, chest pounding bass but just saying it's not a necessity in terms of just obtaining a sound quality system...a good 8 inch sub and a well designed small, vented box would do it for sure.

 

No. I'm not using an LC7 in this set-up. I have in my last 2 cars. This set-up, I'm using this...


I have the unit on the left. So id like to know if id use the gains just like how i explained how i used the LC7 gains?

 

Ok you have been such a big help with your wealth of knowledge i'm going to tell you from the start everything I have, I'd also like to be very clear that NOTHING has been installed yet. I'm asking these questions now to prevent a fiasco later that I could have avoided had i just listened. I trust the shop doing my install. The have been family friends over 30yrs so they listen to any requests i have or they are open to hearing about anything that ive read or heard that will help the installer complete his work so i thank you.

Here's the traits about my musical tastes that may help you better assist me before I tell you all the components I have. I'm a musician. I played Alto-Sax for 8yrs of my life and I sang in a boys choir for 7. I'm a huge fan of EDM genre when my windows are down but it the windows are up, I'll listen to anything from Jazz/Classical (I'm 35yo lol) to R&B/90's-00's Hip-Hop & 80's-90's light rock (ex. REM). So i want a system where I can hear almost every note, instrument, or octave to best appreciate what im listening to. Now before i get into the stuff im having install i want to tell u what would be an awesome system to my ears so i can clear up some things that you previously read that i posted. I'm a huge fan of goods highs the "brighter" the better unless its uncomfortable to my ears and good mid-range to bring out those frequencies only made by a great voice. Deep bass i can appreciate only if its to balance the highs im hearing. Nothing to wake-up the neighborhood. Now to better opine on the sub/bass subject. I want my system to be so balanced that its hare to know where the bass is coming from in the car. Just like in my living room. it doesnt sound like the bass is coming the rear left corner of the house.

Here are the things i'm installing:

Mids/highs- 2 sets of Infinity Kappa 60.9 components (front- stock location/rear- tweeters will be installed forward of the door handle and woofer in the doors). Coustic Amp 4 channel 75x4. PAC LOC.

Sub- 1 Alpine Type-S 10" will be powered by old school MTX Thunder 275x 2-chl amp bridged 150watts rms @4ohm.

The deck is stock oem navi unit.

Anything else feel free to ask.

 

You can max out those gains on that LOC. After that, you then set the gains on the amps. The more voltage you have going into your amp, the lower the amp gain will need to be.
Like I mentioned, it's either going to output the same voltage as your HU (2-4volts) when set to max or it's going to act like a Line Driver and increase the voltage even further. Probably will do no more than 8 volts.

I hope that helps

 

Right. Well first off I wouldn't bother with changing the rear door speakers, it's really not going to do you any good honestly, even if you don't want a front stage...which I think will be what you really want btw. Leave your rear speakers stock with HU ouput. So much of your sound quality will be right there in front of you regardless. Your stock rear speakers would perform the rear fill...changing those won't effect you much but only sound good to your rear passengers perhaps.
You want your bass up front, so front staging your system with no more than just light rear fill is what you'll want. Just keep in mind it's hard to achieve that in cars because they are such small spaces. Again as I mentioned before, you want some good mid bass up front to draw focus of your bass towards that front stage.

Like I mentioned before my concern over the use of a sealed box. I get that you don't want to boom, you want smooth bass that blends in with the rest of your music so What you really want is a flat response.

It's a misconception that ported boxes are boomy, but they are actually very accurate....remember most Home Theater subs use ported. Boomy'ness is caused by group delay which peaks at the tuning frequency...often because of poor box design for a particular sub.

Type S is a nice sub. If you want to hear the full range of your music down to the deepest notes, your going to need Ported. So let me model out a couple of boxes using your type S subwoofer.
This is an SWS 12D4 that I'm going to use to demonstrate.

This is .77ft3 sealed box. Notice the slope, at 40 hz your 104db using 300 watts as an input for demonstration. At peak of 100 hz you are at 112, nearly twice as loud. So your deeper notes are going to disappear and you won't notice them.
Remember your deepest frequencies is more omnidirectional. That's why I would prefer you emphasize that because it will help you in getting that up front bass sound you ware wanting.



Now here is a ported box....I didn't fine tune anything to optimize size to output ratio, just trying to give you a visual difference.
Notice how much flatter the response curve is. And you are now 112 db at 40hz.



Direct comparison of the SW sub in sealed vs ported



I think I covered most things in my previous posts. Car audio has a lot of comprimises and sound quality competitors spend a ton of cash to get that SQ so it's going to take some good tweaking....again I recommend a processor such as Rockford Fosgate 360 so you can do some serious tweaking and nail that sound you are looking for.
Even with a sealed box, a processor will help you to flatten it out more by dropping some of the upper bass frequencies.

Any more questions, feel free to ask. I'll try as best I can though I"m pushing the experience and knowledge that I have....if you need more technical details, you could always ask at diymobileaudio.com. Those guys have a lot more experience and knowledge into the technical aspects than I ever will.

 

I'm very late but wanted to say thank you. The sub is being installed Saturday. The Infinity Kappa components were installed, front and rear and sound awesome. The installer didn't put the LOC gains at max but will Saturday. I'll keep you posted. Again many thanks bro. I can't wait to hear it. BTW I adjust the amp gains with a real �� so I get full-range sound. Normally a jazz �� recording of my Uncle's band.