Is anyone else a little wary of direct injection?
#1
03-25-2014, 02:05 PM
Is anyone else a little wary of direct injection?
I'm going to be in the market to buy a Fit soon, and I really liked the 2013 I test drove not too long ago... but I'm not sure if I'll go for the 2015 if I find myself in a position to buy after the 2013s have disappeared from the lots. It's not just the new model/new factory concerns that seem to be prevalent here; it's also because of the Earth Dreams engine. Yes, it's a lot more efficient, but how has Honda addressed the issue of carbon buildup on the intake valves in direct injection systems? A huge part of the Fit's appeal to me is reliability and ease of maintenance, and I'd hate to need to get my valves cleaned every 30k miles.
#2
03-25-2014, 02:39 PM
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Earth Dreams out in Japan for a year on their Fits. Nevertheless, once our ordered '15 Fit is eventually delivered, have got 3 years to figure it out (warranty coverage).
Its like getting a wife. You won't really know till you live with them. In my case, the 1st one didn't work. Changed her for a new model. Problem is they don't come with any warranty!!!
Its like getting a wife. You won't really know till you live with them. In my case, the 1st one didn't work. Changed her for a new model. Problem is they don't come with any warranty!!!
#3
03-25-2014, 07:40 PM
I doubt the DI will cause any issues, it's been used for quite a while, in Japan, not just in the Fit, but other engines and cars from Honda.
I just have a feeling I want to stay with the more traditional and mechanical Honda like the current Fit is.
I just have a feeling I want to stay with the more traditional and mechanical Honda like the current Fit is.
#4
03-25-2014, 08:12 PM
Like anything else there are pros and cons. The engine has been out and I wouldn't let that bother you too much. Honda makes a pretty good product. The direct injection may need different maintenance but overall its going to save you enough on fuel to pay for carbon cleaning from time to time.
#5
03-25-2014, 08:20 PM
couldnt you just use a product like sea foam to clean the intake valves of carbon deposits since that's what it's made for in the first place or just use it every 10,000 miles or so to be on the preventative side?
#6
03-25-2014, 08:34 PM
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[QUOTE=2010FitSport;1228794].............wouldn't let that bother you too much. Honda makes a pretty good product............................QUOTE]
Well said and I totally agree. I guess that's why this site exists cause we are Honda and JDM believers!!!
Well said and I totally agree. I guess that's why this site exists cause we are Honda and JDM believers!!!
#7
03-25-2014, 09:28 PM
Additives won't do anything--detergents in the gas don't reach the intake valves in DI systems. It's why the GT86/BRZ engine has a hybrid system with port injectors that are used under certain conditions, just to get gasoline additives onto the valves.
#8
03-26-2014, 02:30 AM
sea foam isnt just an additive to gas though, you can actually clean the engine with it by adding it through a vacuum line into the head of the engine and actually has instructions on the bottle for that purpose in addition to it being able to be added to the gas tank and also the oil pan, although if you add it to your oil you have to change your oil within a few miles as it thins out the oil. have used it several time on most of my cars with great results and also more recently with my buddies wifes 96 honda civic which had a ton of carbon build up in the engine and fuel lines from not ever flushing the engine, ran alot smoother according to her after we did that and is still going strong after having done it almost 2 years ago. not saying it will work in this case, but it would be interesting if it did help with cleaning carbon deposits on direct injection engines
#9
03-26-2014, 09:21 AM
This is a repost of an article from Edmunds published 3 years ago. They say that there are cars with problems, but Ford and GM appear to have solved the GDI issues.
I'd trust Honda to get it right. But I understand the desire to verify...
source
I'd trust Honda to get it right. But I understand the desire to verify...
...the rapid adoption of DI has actually illuminated an issue, not caused one. A “dirty” intake or exhaust-recirculation design can easily go undetected in a conventional port-injected engine due to the cleaning effect of gasoline passing over the intake valves. When the same engine designs are adapted to direct-injection fueling, however, that cleaning effect is suddenly lost – and the carbon layers can build.
There is no simple fix for engines that are prone to carbon build-up, Chick says. What’s needed is a complete redesign of the crankcase ventilation and exhaust-gas recirculation systems to prevent particulates from getting through. Fortunately, the manufacturers whose engines are frequently cited in carbon build-up reports – mainly VW, Audi and Lexus – appear to have taken this step with many of their latest models. For instance, Audi’s new 3-liter supercharged V6, used in the S4 and A6 models, has so far been free from carbon-related complaints – a far cry from the 3.2 liter V6, which has numerous threads dedicated to the condition.
If Ford and GM engineers and Chick are correct, the carbon-buildup problem now may be relegated to previous engine designs that were not well-adapted for DI. But that’s probably little consolation to some early adopters...
There is no simple fix for engines that are prone to carbon build-up, Chick says. What’s needed is a complete redesign of the crankcase ventilation and exhaust-gas recirculation systems to prevent particulates from getting through. Fortunately, the manufacturers whose engines are frequently cited in carbon build-up reports – mainly VW, Audi and Lexus – appear to have taken this step with many of their latest models. For instance, Audi’s new 3-liter supercharged V6, used in the S4 and A6 models, has so far been free from carbon-related complaints – a far cry from the 3.2 liter V6, which has numerous threads dedicated to the condition.
If Ford and GM engineers and Chick are correct, the carbon-buildup problem now may be relegated to previous engine designs that were not well-adapted for DI. But that’s probably little consolation to some early adopters...
#10
03-26-2014, 01:47 PM
My mom has an 07' Lexus IS350 which I believe has DI, I used to work in parts at Lexus and IS250s regularly come in with idle problems, random stalling, rough operation in general. Usually what has to be done is the whole motor is pulled apart, components polished clean and replacement of pistons/valves etc I believe. I've seen the inside of engines after they pull it apart. The amount of carbon buildup is scary, and really really caked on, I couldn't even scrape it with my hands using considerable force. Suprisingly, the 350 doesn't have these problems. But they do have a recall for loose camshaft gear if anyone has one or is looking for one lol.
#12
03-27-2014, 02:27 PM
$600-$800 Every 30,000 Miles
I am definitely concerned about direct injection, so I'm going into my purchase of the 2015 Fit realizing that I may need to pay $600-800 every 30,000 miles or so to have carbon buildup removed from the intake valves.
I would rather be financially prepared to take this hit, so I am not going to assume that Honda has fixed this problem with direct injected engines until it has been proven.
Hopefully Honda will eventually adopt some sort of multiport injection solution (both direct injected and port injected) that seems to fix this carbon buildup problem on Euro spec VW GTI engines. I read about it in this thread:
Safe to assume USMK7 GTI will have MPI?
I would rather be financially prepared to take this hit, so I am not going to assume that Honda has fixed this problem with direct injected engines until it has been proven.
Hopefully Honda will eventually adopt some sort of multiport injection solution (both direct injected and port injected) that seems to fix this carbon buildup problem on Euro spec VW GTI engines. I read about it in this thread:
Safe to assume USMK7 GTI will have MPI?
#13
03-27-2014, 04:05 PM
Having owned a variety of different Hondas for more than 30 years, I have confidence that Honda would not risk their reputation for reliability and low maintenance, if they had not already solved this issue. I found this YouTube video explains the issue and the basic premise of a solution.
But I agree that there may be the need for some additional maintenance in order to maintain peak efficiency. However, I expect that the added fuel economy of DI (in the case of the Fit +7MPG) will more than offset the additional maintenance.
But I agree that there may be the need for some additional maintenance in order to maintain peak efficiency. However, I expect that the added fuel economy of DI (in the case of the Fit +7MPG) will more than offset the additional maintenance.
#14
03-27-2014, 04:25 PM
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Honda has invested in: new car design, increased production from Mexico, wants to be the leader with the biggest market share for this segment: too much at stake to skimp on an identified industry-wide technical issue.
Confident that their engineering has tackled the issue of DI carbon build-up.
BTW, nice video link.
Mahalo nui loa brahLast edited by ROTTBOY; 03-27-2014 at 04:29 PM.
#15
03-27-2014, 04:33 PM
I believe Honda's first attempt at DI engines was with the Isuzu built Rodeo(Honda Passport) in 2004, the last year Isuzu built SUV's for Honda. I had one and it was a very good engine and never had any problems, so I would assume that DI has improved greatly in 10 years time. I would think DI would be little problem with the Mexican built Fit.
#16
03-27-2014, 10:21 PM
The Rodeo/Passport was direct injection? Does that explain the super noisy valvetrain I always used to hear on them?
I'll wait and see how the Earth Dreams Accords fare as their mileages increase before I consider any DI tech from Honda. People assume too much IMO and I haven't found any press releases or official papers from Honda discrediting the carbon buildup concerns people have.
I'll wait and see how the Earth Dreams Accords fare as their mileages increase before I consider any DI tech from Honda. People assume too much IMO and I haven't found any press releases or official papers from Honda discrediting the carbon buildup concerns people have.
#17
03-27-2014, 10:29 PM
The Rodeo/Passport was direct injection? Does that explain the super noisy valvetrain I always used to hear on them?
I'll wait and see how the Earth Dreams Accords fare as their mileages increase before I consider any DI tech from Honda. People assume too much IMO and I haven't found any press releases or official papers from Honda discrediting the carbon buildup concerns people have.
I'll wait and see how the Earth Dreams Accords fare as their mileages increase before I consider any DI tech from Honda. People assume too much IMO and I haven't found any press releases or official papers from Honda discrediting the carbon buildup concerns people have.
#18
03-27-2014, 10:39 PM
I'm going to be in the market to buy a Fit soon, and I really liked the 2013 I test drove not too long ago... but I'm not sure if I'll go for the 2015 if I find myself in a position to buy after the 2013s have disappeared from the lots. It's not just the new model/new factory concerns that seem to be prevalent here; it's also because of the Earth Dreams engine. Yes, it's a lot more efficient, but how has Honda addressed the issue of carbon buildup on the intake valves in direct injection systems? A huge part of the Fit's appeal to me is reliability and ease of maintenance, and I'd hate to need to get my valves cleaned every 30k miles.
I didn't trust power steering when it became common. I didn't trust FI at first. Likewise air bags ( still don't). And crash bumpers. All that junk makes a 5k car cost 30k.
#19
03-27-2014, 11:06 PM
Nevermind then.
