No, without doing research I'm confident that the Fit has a much higher NVH than the Civic? Just from panel fit on the Fit compared to the Civic, it will have more wind noise.

I used to work at Chrysler in the body shop where the body of the Dodge Dart was produced. I don't know Honda's specs but Chryslers were 3mm gap +/- .5mm. Each panel was over flush .5mm. Think of shingles on your house. That way the air rushes over the car not getting caught in a crack to create wind noise. When I look at my Fit and others for comparison, my rear doors are under flush by 3mm, 1mm over flush by the door handle and even at the bottom. This will create a bunch of wind noise. I haven't seen a Fit yet that wasn't under flush at the top of the rear doors. It's actually embarrassing how poorly the panel fit is on my car. Let Honda know that on their owners survey. Obviously they don't care. The Civic's that I looked at have decent panel alignment.

 

N0, the Civic is a much nicer car than the Fit. People just will naturally try to rationalize or justify their purchase. Yes, the Fit has more cargo space. The 2-3 MPG advantage that the Fit may or may not have depending many variables isn't going to change my life. So I might spend $100-$120 a year more in fuel. My budget isn't that tight.

I'd trade my Fit for a Civic without hesitation if someone would offer.

 

Is this a simple QC issue?

 

No, I don't think so? Well maybe? I used to have to send 10 cars a week to the metrology lab for CMM. After being measured dimensional engineers would look over data and make tooling adjustments to keep the car as close to nominal as possible. There were multiple sets of stamping dies, equipment wear and other variables which resulted in constant changes. I'm not sure what Honda's standard is? Besides my 6 speed MT was built in Mexico. All plants usually have the same standards, all don't achieve the same results.

With my car and my understanding of how cars or at least Chryslers are built I think it's a stamping issue or design issue? At Chrysler the doors had an adhesive along with anti flutter that didn't set until the car went through the paint oven. The door could be manually moved (bent) by fitters in the repair bay to make better alignment if the car failed measurement prior to paint. I don't think my door can ever be aligned properly and I don't want a new door and paint work done so I just live with it. It's a cheap car, and I got what I paid for. Later I'll take some photos o how bad it is.

I don't want to sound like a Chrysler commercial but I'd have put the Dodge Dart bodies that were built, at least on my shift against anything for quality.

This is a good video of what my work was like. My are was Auto Panel

Chrysler 200 Factory

 

Considering the brevity of my question, your answer very thoroughly addressed one of my anxieties about the Fit. Thanks.

If the manufacturing process for the Fit requires a keen eye and someone who cares to make a range of precise adjustments, and the plant that would make my Fit doesn't do that well, that's a problem.

I have long belittled people who didn't want their VW to come from Mexico; I don't believe it takes a german or czech to screw together a car that can pass QC checks.

However, if Honda's assembly standard for the Fit isn't the same as used in its other first world products, the panel problems I would miss but that you observe may only illustrate wider problems. (I think I've driven a Fit four times beginning in 2015 and most recent a 2017. The 2016 LX CVT sounded as if it had no sound insulation, but a 2017 LX manual was less tinny/noisey and livable, low gearing and all.)


I am not convinced that the Fit is a bargain, but I still can't help liking them. If they would fix the seats and gear ratios, I might not be able to resist.

 

The Chrysler plant I worked at along with Sterling Heights and Toledo had state of the art equipment with the auto panel lines. Many plants aren't equipped the same and have assist arms and an assembler who manually installs the doors. I still think my issue is a stamping or dimensional issue? The door fit is much better on the passenger side than the drivers. They should be symmetrical so something must be going on. Not my problem to fix it for them. I really should have taken it in for warranty even though it's not really fixable without different doors. At least the plant would take the warranty hit. With enough of them, someone might notice?



I have no issues with cars or at least Chryslers assembled in Mexico. My employee lease at Chrysler was a Journey R/T for my wife. It was assembled in Toluca Mexico. That plant had assist arms, manual panel install and fitters manually adjusting panel alignment. More than happy with the panel alignment and the overall vehicle. My only issue was poor fuel economy since it twas at the end of its life cycle and had a four speed automatic. My 200 S with the 8 speed auto would routinely see fuel economy in the upper 30's and 41mpg on a trip I took that was all highway. Actually someone from Honda needs to take a test drive in a Chrysler with the 8.4" touch screen. The Honda units are like Fisher Price toys in comparison.

I wanted hatchback to haul my stuff around in. The Fiat 500 was too small and the 500L is too ugly. I wanted to buy new and Mazda stopped importing the Mazda 2 into this country. Too little profit at the price point to be competitive in the subcompact market. Unfortunately, I chose the Fit based on the rear seating flexibility and future resale value. If I could go back in time to October when I purchased it, I'd probably buy a used Fiesta ST.

 

Rob, you've piqued my interest because you've contemplated some of the same options, but you know more about the assembly process. My questions arise from that interest and aren't adversarial. At this point, I am holding out for some improvement from the mid-model change.

Your observation about the doors on the passenger side being better than on the driver side leads me to wonder whether there was some cynicism in the original design for right-hand drive markets.

Is there anything else about your Fit that leads you to this regret? Or does your experience in the industry leave you less tolerant of flaws? (I've a friend who works for an automotive paint manufacturer; I can't show him a car he thinks is nice because he will show me the "orange peel", thin spots and every other aspect of the paint that isn't perfect.)

Despite the Fiesta getting less than stellar reviews for build quality, I looked for one last December. Finding a non-ST manual Fiesta hatch in my state was impossible. I considered it despite the insufficient rear seats because of the Fit gearing issue.

I have spent much of my life driving relatively simple and crude automobiles, so I think I could live with those qualities. However, you seem to be finding your Fit to be generally subpar and unsatisfactory.

 

Both sides should be symmetrical. Auto manufactures don't design cars for better panel alignment on one side than the other. IDK, they might not know how to fix it, or the ROI doesn't justify the corrective action on a low end, low profit margin subcompact entry level model? Besides, this is a Japanese car. It's not like the Germans in regard to say the Porsche 924 days with mailbox reflectors? Almost like punishment for are side marker light laws of the time? LOL

I like to think I'm not being overly critical? As cars get driven they become "used cars". When they develop squeaks and such I expect that and don't mind because it's "used". For some people whether it's their first major purchase or whatever expect their new car to be new forever.

Obviously I don't like the panel alignment. I had a fitter on the end of my line and after the vision system took measurements the car would stop in his station. He would look to see if there was any minor write ups on the vehicle, and if so he would correct if it could be completed within cycle time. If not he flag the car for the repair bay. I would have written up my fitter for lack of quality if a car left Body in White with panel alignment as poor as on my car. It's not 1975, this isn't acceptable for a car manufactured in 2016.

I don't like the 6 speed transmission. I don't think my car needs to be at 3500 RPM at 70 MPH? Giving the engineers the benefit of the doubt that it needs to be at that RPM to make power to pass, for fuel economy, or whatever the 6 speed is useless. 5th gear is too close between 4th and 6th. I basically shift from 4th to 6th bypassing 5th gear. IDK, maybe I'm sacrificing 1 MPG fuel economy by doing so and the fuel economy police on this forum will now come after me? My guess it's a marketing department thing? So they can advertise the car has a 6 speed MT? Myself I would have preferred 6th be a little more of a drop.

The connectivity sucks compared the the Chrysler 8.4" touch screen. Excluding how the system interfaces with the user/phone. My issue is mine locks up. If I'm playing music from my iPhone, using the phones GPS and try to make or receive a phone call at the same time it will lock up. No music, phone, NOTHING until I shut the car off and restart. That usually results in me pulling to car off the highway and doing that in a gas station or somewhere I wouldn't mind being stranded in in case the car doesn't restart due to some other major electrical or computer malfunction. Of course the dealer can't replicate the issue.

It's a small thin lightweight car. Some of it, I get. The engineers used to tell me that every 100# weight savings was 1 MPG fuel economy increase. The Dart had 3 floor pan revisions, sunroof reinforcement revision along with others during production to save weight. Anyway, 80% of my daily commute is on a 70 MPH interstate. Driving the car is like driving a tail fin on an airplane. Around any truck is like being bounced around like a pinball. I've grown accustomed to it, but I can almost guarantee that if my wife drove it in those conditions it would be the last time.


Overall feel of the car. I get autos are a series of compromises. It's almost like Honda's quest to make the car "so utilitarian" took any fun or pleasure out of driving it? Maybe if the imported the RS model to the US that would have been more to my liking? Based on the most of the forum topics, they probably have designed for the right buyers?


From above the gearing isn't necessary to my liking but it's not the end of the world. It really doesn't bother me as much as other issues I have.



For me it all started because my daily driver with 220K miles started to have too many issues. My mechanic said "get rid of it". I was looking for a $10K used Subaru Forester. All the cars seemed to have 100K miles in that price range. I expanded my search to all makes on one of those car sale websites and a 2017 Mitsubishi Mirage popped up. New at the dealer for just under $10K plus taxes license, title and destination charge. Using dummy math say $12K out the door. I figured I could have a new car for $2K more instead of someones problem. My concern with the Mitsubishi is they no longer have any US manufacturing plant. They say they're committed to the US market but have dropped their flagship Evolution model. There's a whole lot of kids that went to the dealer to by an EVO and drove home a Lancer instead. Anyway, I was concerned about them maybe being another Suzuki and pulling out of the US market all together. Anyway $12K became more as I started to look at other subcompacts.

I got sucked into worrying about resale value since this was a two year stop gap car until my son goes to college. The Hyundai was nice, but they don't have good resale value. Hyundai's quality is excellent, but early ones weren't and that reputation drives down the cars value. If I was going to drive the car into the ground, then it doesn't make a difference.

My wife knew I wouldn't be happy with the car. I remember her asking "are you sure you want to buy this?" My response was that I just wanted a cheap crap box to commute to work. I told her I still have my WRX for when I want to go fast or drive something more fun.

In regard to you being comfortable or accustomed to driving "simple and crude automobiles" the Fit might be fine for you? Even though I'm a subcompact buyer, I'm probably not a subcompact owner? Regardless of what you buy the key is maintenance. If you buy a Honda because it's a reliable car and is going to last forever you'll probably follow the recommended maintenance schedule? Hence you will make the car last. If you buy a Ford Fiesta and think it's a cheap disposable car that's not going to last much over 100K miles you probably won't follow the maintenance schedule, hence shortening the cars life to your expectations. We've been flying B52 bombers since the 50's because they're being serviced and parts are replaced before they fail.

 

Rob, thanks again for the generous response. FWIW, I've had a 924s and a couple of Swift GTIs. GTIs weren't common and finding parts drove me to sell it.

Don't know if this does you any good, but I drove a Chevy Spark about a month ago, and I didn't hate it. The back seat isn't usable, and despite my good experience with a Hyundai 15 years ago, I am not sold on the wisdom of buying a Daewoo/GM product. The upside is that the engine sound is less intrusive and the driving position is better if you are over six feet tall. I do see them on autotrader new for under $10,000.

 

Chrysler products......LOL, shaking head.....fuck, they killed the Viper....wtf??? Guess Fiat's running the show...and there's no way I'd drive a 500 before the Fit...

 

I am a big guy (bigger than I should/need to be, 375lbs, 6') and I would never take the Civic over the Fit. The Civic did have a tad more leg room, but the door ergonomics of where my leg had to sit was not comfortable, and the hip/leg width room with that giant console was less than the Fit. Would my wife and I be further apart, sure, lots of plastic between us. That and my right arm when testing on the arm rest would hang in the opening and when -20C that area is cold, lol. Also the leg room for my 10 & 13 year old children is way better in the FIT, to the tune of 4"-5" (as my seat is all the way back, and leaned back as well). The Fit carries the 4 of us comfortably, where we would be cramped in the Civic. Bigger car does not mean more interior space.

 

I'd take a 500 Abarth any day of the week over my misFit. I've driven them and looked at build quality. Far superior automobile. I considered one, it just didn't have the cargo space I needed. As for a standard 500, I've never driven one. I suspect based on the Abarth's build quality it's superior to my Fit and others I've looked at. Longevity of the base 500 based on anything other than employee who had one with 170K miles with the only issue being leaking valve cover gasket and broken washer fluid bottle. Other than that I really don't have a clue, but I suspect you don't either?

 

Consumer Reports, JD Powers, and True Delta seem to have a clue.

Seriously, any FCA product is at the bottom for quality and reliability always. I've rented dozens of cars; only the Chrysler corporation cars screwed up, and almost every time. While all of three organizations, and many other press outlets have hailed the Fit.

Sorry, couldn't stand by and ignore this line of attack any more. My early 2015 Fit is built like a tank, and I couldn't be happier. After 35 years of renting midsized cars through National Emerald Aisle, I have no doubt that I prefer it to the myriad Hyundais, Kias, Chevys, and Fords I've had. And especially the Chryslers.

 

Apart from the panel alignment, there are a fair number of MT drivers that would agree with your shifting patterns that skip gears. The Fit's connectivity issues have been well known since mid 2015, and Honda has done nothing about it. I'm unsure if the new Civic has much better connectivity. Honda still has no plan, afaik, for owners to update their car's software.

I'm wondering if, heretically speaking from a MT owner, the CVT would not have been a better option for you. At 110kph/70mph the CVT would spin at ~2500rpm. Then again maybe a CVT would deaden you down, as it would me.

Overall, a good discussion. We are all not Honda fanboys, so the pros and cons can come out, warts and all. The Fit is not the best car, but it was the best for me at that price. I was also considering the Mazda3, but it was much more expensive and had less room for everyone.

 

I wanted a MT to make my 100 mile daily commute less boring. More importantly I live in northern Illinois. On more then one occasion when I've been driving in a snow storm I've had to switch the traction control off and drive in a different gear to keep moving and not get stuck. I've driven automatics and not been able to go to a different gear because the computer program wouldn't allow me and the traction control was cutting so much power trying to eliminate wheel spin I was down to 20 mph fully floored. I believe I know how to better drive my car for the conditions then whomever programmed the ECU?

I autocross a different car that I own. I always shut the traction control off. Otherwise the car is trying to "save" me because it doesn't know I'm in a closed course competition.

 

On the phone connectivity issue, could it be an OS issue. I've seen more iphone complaints than android on the fourm. I use an android and occasionally it'll drop bluetooth connection but I just have to turn the bluetooth off and on on the phone and it comes back. I only use my phone for music streaming and Waze. While android auto/carplay would be nice, it's not a deal breaker for me.

If I'd get a civic, it'd have to be the hatchback w/ the turbo. I don't care for the styling as much with that weird double spoiler but really I own a Fit so looks wasn't my priority in the first place. It looks like it's trying too hard to look fast. The turbo would make the car more enjoyable to drive, and it still gets really good highway MPG which is important to me since the Fit is my commuter car. Since the Fit is paid off, hopefully no new car purchases for me for a while.

 

I don't read Rob's responses to my questions as an attack, but the observations of someone with assembly experience and a reaction to his car.

I know the Fit has some deficits, but it is still interesting.

Speaking for myself, I don't trust or like the CVT. Yes, the ratio at the top is better. However, the Fit stands out as interesting partly for the degree to which is doesn't insulate a driver from driving. The manual is part of that virtue.

 

2017 Honda Civic Coupe review

The Fit is mentioned in passing.

 

"Compact cars in general have exploded ... in size"

This is true. The 2016 Fit has the same footprint as the 1991 Civic with some of the hauling versatility of my minivan.

 

Here's the poor panel alignment to show the Honda fanboy's.

Normally I wouldn't have bought the car with such bad alignment, but the dealer I purchased from was one of those who installed $15 worth of Protecto Trim door edge guard on the door and wheel well openings for their "$300 vehicle protection package". Of course I didn't pay for it, but it masked the poor panel alignment until I removed it a couple days after my purchase.




This photo with the penny is for reference on the rear drivers door by the door handle. The door looks open because it's over flush 2.53mm





Top of drivers side rear door is 2.68mm under flush. This will create wind noise.




Same area as the photo with the penny. 2.53mm over flush





Bottom of the drivers side rear door by the wheel opening is .35m under flush.




Top of the front drivers door to the rear drivers door is flush

Chrysler's standard that I had to adhere to was .5mm over flush. Think of shingles on your house. This is how noise is reduced by the air flowing over each panel the same as rain running down your roof over shingles.

If one would try to move the striker to suck the door in by the door handle, 2mm to have approximately .5mm over flush that would suck the top of the door in another 2mm to where it was 5mm in. Lots of wind noise plus most likely high door closing effort from having to compress the door weather strip excessively. Thank of it as having to slam the door closed. It would also make the bottom of the door that's very slightly under flush now almost 1/8" under flush. Wind noise and would also make the area prone to rock chips. You can't twist the door to fix the top and middle because that again would create the same bottom issue. If you bent the door frame by the window to fix the top and move the striker in that would fix the top and middle but would thus move the wind noise to where the two doors meet at the top since now the front door at the top would be under flush. That would be far worse since all wind noise would now be at the drivers head.

Maybe to most here this isn't a concern? Most here seem to be concerned about gas millage, wiper blades and other prosaic topics?

I'm not saying Chrysler or FCA products are superior. I'm just saying this wouldn't have been acceptable on any car body my employees built and I would have written someone up if it left Body in White while I was on duty. I don't know what Honda's standard is? Maybe this is within their tolerances? I just find it unacceptable for a car built in 2016