I finally reached the first maintenance minder milestone. What happened was predictable and disappointing. I've gotten myself on board with the idea of trusting the maintenance minder but unfortunately the dealerships do not seem to be wanting to follow Honda's system. Part of this story is my fault for not paying attention closely enough. I was at 10% on the MM and my car was sitting on 9,950 miles. Here's what happened:

* Showed up on time after scheduling online and specifying "A1" interval
* Service advisor looks at my odometer and says, "Looks like we'll need the 10,000 mile maintenance"
* I say, "HUH??? I didn't think we were supposed to be basing this on miles. The manual says to follow the maintenance minder, so shouldn't we just do what it says?"
* Advisor: "We usually go by miles -- heres a brochure." (brochure says "2005 and earlier: 5,000 mile / 10,000 mile / 15,000 mile / etc ... 2006 and newer: A, B -- 1, 2, 3, etc). I point it out and say, "My car's not a 2005 or older." He says, "OK, we can do the other... so B1..."
* Somehow I'm already miffed about the mileage thing so I pay no attention to the fact that he just said *B1* and not *A1* and stupidly agree and wander off.
* Later the bill is $150. Brochure shows that A1 should be oil change and tire rotation only. I look at the bill and it shows *B1* as he said (and I recall, now too late). B1 lists exactly what the manual shows for B1 -- tire rotation, oil/filter, and topping fluids and checking this and that. Still really steep for that, but I'm wondering why he had called for "B1" when my MM clearly said "A1". I ask for the manager.
* The three of us talk about it -- I point out that this was my first service ever, which I had said when I drove in, and that the MM had said "A1". I point out that I realize I wasn't paying close enough attention and will pay for the B1 because of my lack of paying attention but that I want to understand why they're trying so hard NOT to follow the proper schedule here.
* Advisor says, "Your car was right at 10,000 miles so B1 is closer to 10,000 miles than A1." Manager agrees with him.
* Again, I get a bit irate and ask what mileage has to do with ANYTHING, and ask where exactly in Honda's guidance do they ever call for mileage based maintenance for my car?
* We go around several times where they keep repeating that "it's 5,000 or 15%" and I keep asking "where does *HONDA* say that???"
* Finally I have a breakthrough -- manager says, "they don't, we've just always done it that way". So I ask where he gets the 5,000 ... He points to the brochure again.
* I draw his attention to where it says "2005 and older", and I ask why does this have a damn thing to do with my 2015 vehicle?
* He admits that it doesn't but they kept following that because "the maintenance minder has confused everybody". I disagree because it's really pretty simple, and I ask why they can't just do what it says since I've been convinced that Honda designed it to be trusted for maintenance and recommends just following it....
* Finally they agree that they will put a note on my record and do precisely what the MM says regardless of their general practice. They also credit me $50 for the difference between A1 and B1... But I'm still really horrified that A1 -- oil change and tire rotation -- costs $100 normally???!?!?!?!?! Insane!!! I'll come back once, use my credit, and then shop elsewhere.

So I'm not happy with the insanely expensive service pricing or with their disregard for Honda's guidance. This is the second dealership to do this -- I bought it at a different dealership outside of town which also has kept repeating the same "every 5,000" business. I had hoped this one wouldn't do that but here it is.

EDIT: Forgot to mention that I'm also not happy that they totally ignored my appointment booking info where I had specified online that this is *A1*.

 

Dealers have been upselling service since Fred Flintstone brought his Footmobile into Bedrock Motors!

They would love it if you would bring your car in every 3000 miles. The more often they get hold of the car, the more things they can find to do to it, and they don't limit themselves to manufacturer-recommended service. They often want to do other things like flushing various fluids that aren't really made to be flushed. This can lead to other difficulties that, guess what, they can make money fixing!

The solution is to avoid the dealer entirely. Either do it yourself or find a good independent mechanic who will do only the work you specify. The bill will be cheaper and the work will generally be of better quality. Most independents got their start at dealers and hang up their own shingle when they get tired of only getting 1/4 of that $100/hour that you pay at the dealer.

The only time I take my cars to a dealer is if they need warranty or TSB work done. For those I'm generally stuck, and have to brace myself for the "By the way, we noticed that your piston return springs haven't been rotated as we recommend...etc." upsell. They are basically selling fear, which is a much harder sell these days since cars are so reliable.

 

Yeah, just stay away from dealerships unless it's warranty work or TSB related stuff. YOU know what the MM codes mean, so when it comes time, just bring it into an independent shop and tell them you need x, y and z services done. If you need specialty Honda fluids just pick them up online and bring them with you, most independent shops I've been to knock a few bucks off if you bring your own stuff anyway.

I haven't been to the dealership since my first free oil change four years ago, and the longer I can keep it that way the better. I just DIY everything.

You think you're getting specialized knowledge by going to the dealership, but honestly, any decent auto shop with Alldata has access to the same information they do, and if you really want them to, they can get OEM parts too, so why deal with that? Trick is finding a decent independent shop, but at least with Yelp and stuff these days it's not as hard as it used to be in my opinion anyway.

 

Some advice...
get what you need and do your own oil changes. Besides saving money, an big advantage is filling up the oil filter with oil prior to it being installed on the vehicle. Oil change places never do that, which means you will be starting your car on an empty dry filter every single time. If you don't know how to do an oil change...learn. Some critical items...ensure that the old oil filter seal ring is removed when the old filter is removed...and add oil prior to starting the car. If you need to, write out a procedure and follow it. I keep a log book for all maintenance.

Second, find a reasonable place for tire maintenance. I use Walmart and purchase their lifetime tire rotation. I have to watch them like a hawk, and they have even changed some of their procedures due to me. Buts its reasonable and I'm only a few minutes away from where they are. I like the fact that they use a torque wrench on the lugs, but I've had to yell at them concerning other issues. My local store is fairly competent, and I know who I won't allow to work on my cars.

Third, YouTube is your friend, and you can find a lot of competent help on vehicle maintenance. Look for folks that are true professionals.

 

"filling up the oil filter with oil prior to it being installed on the vehicle"

Why is this even necessary? I've been doing my own oil changes for years and never had an issue of not filling the oil filter up with fresh oil. The metal parts already have some lube on it.

You can continue to do that part but I feel it's unnecessary step.

I've always lubed the gasket with fresh oil prior to putting it on the engine.

Been doing this for 20+ years and never had an issue.

Also, Honda dealers will change the oil filter every OTHER change because they believe the filter is still good. My argument with that you still have old oil in the filter which they may just drain it and put the same filter back on.

I always change it with every oil change. Saving $4 isn't worth it.

 

The only filters i've ever pre-filled were diesel truck filters that were as big as my head, simply because waiting that long for the oil light to go out makes me nervous.

Some people do it on all cars, it's a little overkill IMO, but serves a purpose, so if it makes you feel better, go for it. Will you reduce engine life by not doing it? I don't think so, significantly anyway.

 

Makes a real mess when you pre-fill the filter with oil and then turn it horizontal in order to spin it on.

 

Been doing this for 45+ years and never had an issue either...so am I more right? The fact is that filling a filter is very simple and why run an engine for 10 to 15 seconds with zero oil pressure when you can change that to basically zero? Fact is that most engine wear occurs with engine start. Use to build engines and had a friend's cam lobe go out on a brand new rebuild one time...that was enough of a lesson learned for me.

When I do an oil change, as the old oil is draining I usually start filling the new filter. Sometimes if I know I'll be changing the oil on the upcoming weekend, I'll prefill the new filter on the workbench, leaving it in the box container but with the lid torn off. Its not a bad habit since it ensures that I have a replacement filter prior to starting the job. I'll place a piece of plastic wrap over the pre-filled filter, and it will be set to go as soon as the vehicle is ready. Getting a filter to about 90% capacity can take a few minutes, and using a one quart oil container makes for a easy job. I buy the 5 quart jugs, but I keep an empty 1 quart container, and use that for the filter. Yea...got it down to a science.

You might be surprised to find that this is not really true. Filters have an internal bypass, thus they don't drain very well. It's one of the reasons I use a nail or spike to punch a bottom hole into a used filter to allow draining, prior to removal from the vehicle. Almost all old oil will drain that way...much better than removal and tilting upside down. But if you fill a new filter about 75% that installs horizontally, and can quickly spin it into place, you loose basically nothing. I have one vehicle that the filter is slanted, and a motorcycle who's filter is totally horizontal, and I have no issues in pre-filling and not making a mess.

 

Just had my 08 Fit serviced at 85,000 miles & 15% on the mileage meter this past Wednesday at my go to Honda dealership.
The oil change, new oil filter, tire rotation, brake check, inspect fluid levels and topping off as needed; $39.95 plus sales tax.
Next oil change (likely at about 92K miles) I'll need transmission service and brake fluid flush along with the oil change, filter and tire rotation.
Was quoted $249 for those services.
Gregg

 

Thanks for this post! Happy New Year, Bill #22335

 

That's quite a difference in pricing from my dealership. I've only been once but will either need to find an alternative or see how negotiable the pricing might be. As I wrote before, I took my car in for A1 service (my first ever maintenance) which happened to hit 10% somewhere close to 10,000 miles. They slipped a B1 service in on me because of the mileage (they contend that every 5,000 miles is relevant), and ignored the actual code. Anyway, on to the point....

They charge $150 for a B1 service and roughly $100 for an A1 service. Recall that A1 is supposed to be just an oil change and tire rotation. They justify these prices with the reminder that "we're doing a full inspection and topping off fluids" -- as if that "full inspection and topping off fluids" is such an expensive thing to do. So looking at the chart from Honda, it looks like they don't even call for that "inspection and top-off" at A1. Needless to say, I'm irked because there is no other dealership anywhere in range. I'll be needing to find an independent garage that will do everything that needs to be done, nothing more, and charge me a fair price for it. $100 for an oil change and tire rotation (and inspection/fluid topping, even though that wasn't supposed to be A1) is pretty insane.

Almost forgot -- their brochure, which does have the maintenance minder based schedule listed with the pricing I mentioned, but which also has mileage based pricing which they seem to follow for ALL cars unless you raise hell and absolutely demand that they go with the other (after they try to talk you into just going with the mileage-based schedule), lists lower prices than the $100 and $150 for A1 and B1. Later you find out that "shop materials" and a few other odds and ends aren't included in that brochure's pricing, but the brochure doesn't mention that this doesn't include all costs. You don't find out about this until either you are presented the invoice after the service or you press the service advisor about "what's the *true* cost going to be". Otherwise he just points to the brochure and says "this is what our services cost".

Everything about this feels really dishonest to me.

Please, no suggestions that I just do the work myself. I'm not inclined to do that. I realize it's cheaper, that I can know exactly what I'm getting and that the work is done, etc., but I'm just not going to do the work myself. I just want fair pricing, good work, and no need to feel like I'm pulling teeth to get them to do exactly what needs to be done and nothing more.

So regarding A1 and B1 service, what price range should be considered fair for this? I'm looking for "typical", not some one-off situation where a dealership in Alaska is pricing their work barely above a charity level. And I'm already sure that my dealership's pricing is probably high. Also, what success have others had in just getting an otherwise expensive dealership to go cheaper? How did you go about negotiating that? And finally, should they be doing the full inspection and fluid top-off at every single maintenance interval (as their brochure indicates) or should that literally just be an oil change and tire rotation?

 

Just kind of wonder.


What was their 10,000 mile service? What did it include?


Maybe there wasn't a difference between what the dealership was calling the 10,000 mile service and what the maintenance minder calls the A1 interval?


I agree with you that the dealership should be doing what HONDA recommends as per their own manual and maintenance minder.


If you are coming in following the Honda recommended "Maintenance Minder" intervals and maintenance procedure, and the dealership is routinely upselling to a higher level of service and cost? Then I'd say the dealership is acting sleazy.


However, ultimately it's up to you to know exactly what service you are being provided.


When I owned my Honda Fit I always went by the maintenance minder. However, on those maintenance intervals that recommended only changing the oil? I would usually tell the dealership to also change the filter. I was willing to pay the cost of the filter change, even if it was above and beyond what Honda said needed to be done.


Maybe it was wasteful and wrong. But I couldn't stand coming in for an Oil Change and NOT getting the filter changed at the same time. But besides that? I went by the maintenance minder intervals, and I expected the dealership to also go by those recommendations.

 

The dealer I purchased from included oil changes for as long as I own the vehicle. The catch is that I MUST service the vehicle as per the maintenance minder. I'll be responsible for Any additional services above and beyond the cost of oil/filter/labour. Fine by me. I'll change the oil myself every 5,000km without resetting the MM and get every second oil change at the dealership free of charge.

 

As I mentioned in the original post, this was my first service. The car had right at 10,000 miles but because this was the first time the MM had ever come on, it was an A1 interval. The problem (one of several) was that the dealership went with a B1 service rather than an A1.

I *thought* I understood what was being done -- the service advisor had asked if I wanted all of the scheduled items for "this interval" (or some reasonable synonym). By "this interval" I had assumed this meant "what A1 calls for". He had a different idea of what this means -- "What 10,000 miles calls for", which in their estimation is the same as a B1 service (5,000 would be A1).

My mistake -- particularly because I'm pretty much an idiot when it comes to car maintenance, as I'm well aware -- was in assuming that "this interval" was the MM based interval and not some dealer-concocted mileage based interval. The conversation that followed, when I was going over why I had been charged $150 for basically an oil change and tire rotation, bore this out.

Basically, this dealership (and the one where I purchased the car, which had been contacting me a while ago to tell me that I should be about due for my "5,000 mile service") is that they're more or less ignoring the MM and going with mileage-based schedules. The guy actually confirmed this -- in his words, "no one really understands the maintenance minder, so we just stuck with miles". Their own brochure, which they apparently don't follow, shows one schedule for mileage (at 5,000 mile intervals) which it indicates is for cars "2006 and earlier" and one for MM, which it indicates is for "after 2006".

So I pointed out the "2006 and earlier" and brought up the fact that my car is much newer than 2006, and the response was something like, "yeah, that's what Honda recommends but we just go with mileage for all cars because the maintenance minder confuses everybody".

OK, so that was problem #1 -- my stupid assumption that we were talking about the same thing when we were talking about which interval I'm on. Along with that, it was my mistake in not getting him to actually list everything that this included... but he did hand me the brochure as I was walking to the waiting area, saying that this lists what is being done. And when I looked at it, I looked at A1 -- not "10,000 miles".

Thus far, I admit to quite a bit of stupidity on my part, but does that completely excuse the dealership? My belief is that even if the customer is a moron, any business that means to exploit that is unethical. The customer should not need to be a whiz at negotiating or an expert on the subject matter in order to not be taken for a ride. An honest business will do what's fair and reasonable regardless. Maybe there are no honest dealerships, and the idiots among us (me included) are inevitably going to overpay way too often.

Anyway, my second frustration was in fact with the pricing. And this has two sub-categories of frustration....

1) The undisclosed charges... It shows something like $79 for A1 (or 5,000 mile) and $129 for B1 (10,000 mile). The actual charges end up being right at $100 for A1 and $150 for B1. Why? Well, crap like "shop supplies" among other things. They don't mention that at the beginning. They merely point out the listed prices in the brochure and then you find out about the "shop supplies" and such later when the bill comes in. I argued about this as well and the manager tells me that there are always these components on every bill, and that they're a percentage of the work.

2) The high prices for the work... You all know what's on the A1 and B1 schedules. The brochure from the dealership seems to match exactly to the listings I've seen elsewhere which itemize these things. In other words, they don't appear to be throwing in any "additional dealer recommended services" which the Hyundai dealer I used to frequent would often offer up (which I would usually refuse). Even B1 is oil/filter, tire rotation, and inspection of this and that along with fluid top-offs. How does that add up to $150 worth of work???? I'll admit that I was still pretty sticker-shocked at thinking I was about to pay $79 for an oil change and tire rotation but being that I was a bit short on time I figured I'd just cough it up and decide next time what to do. But now it looks like we're talking $100 for an oil change and tire rotation, and $150 for that plus a filter and "inspection" and fluid top-off????

My question would be -- moving past my stupidity in the first part of the narrative, and just focusing on the pricing of the services -- how typical are these prices of dealerships in general? Are many other dealerships getting $100 for A1 and $150 for B1? This is the only dealership nearby so I'm either going to be driving quite a ways off for service or looking for another shop which isn't a dealership.

 

It seems most dealers act the way yours did (go by miles and not the MM). This is why I don't bother telling them I want "A1", even though this is all we should have to say. Instead I look at what the manual calls out for that particular MM and tell them to do that. So in the case of the A1 I tell them I want an oil change ($29) and a tire rotation ($19).

Or do it yourself.

 

I'm new to owning a Honda and the whole maintenance reminder ritual. Maybe I'm old school, but is there just a guide/booklet advising of what mileage/time frames the preventative maintenance is needed.


I just don't like or trust the car telling me when to do the maintenance, and secondly, I can always prepare for the cost of the next major service when I know it's going to be.


All of my previous cars have had a scheduled maintenance booklet and it just seems to make life easier for me

 

i agreed with you, i am old school. the maintenance minder is the new way of the world. it is here to stay.

 

Oh poo!


Are there other manufacturers that are scraping actual physical books as well? If memory serves me right, Ford and GM are still including the maintenance schedule in the owner booklet

 

My father has a Ford diesel truck and it has its own version of the MM for stuff like oil, coolant, transmission fluid, and whatnot.

It is pretty much going to be the way things are from now on I fear.

 

Don't be a Luddite...

20 years ago, this Topic would have been "I drive my car EASY, so why does the Dealer want to perform the SEVERE service schedule for my car every time?" LOL

The MM (or OLM, Oil Life Monitor, as it is called by other manufacturers) takes more than mileage into account for Oil Life. IMO, it is more accurate than just counting miles. So you are not wasting time or $$$ having your car serviced more than is necessary.


++++++++++++++


The dealers using the service stop as a Cash Machine, that's another issue, and one that won't go away anytime soon. Indie shops do this too...



I tell my daughters (who value their time, plus they appreciate that the dealer's oil change is quick, and features coffee, pastries, and WiFi) not to agree to anything the dealer says, just tell them "I need to ask my Dad if it's OK" <EVIL GRIN>


BTW, it pays to read the Owners Manual so that you can tell what codes (services) are recommended next, yourself.