0W 30 Mobil 1 Oil

[bkrell]

Yes. But that doesn't make it any better for our cars than an 0W20...

[explosivpotato]

Originally Posted by der Mond

Thanks, potatoman, and if I do need assistance I will definitely PM you! How much did the turbo conversion cost you total, and why did you go turbo as opposed to supercharged?

The turbo kit was about 3500$ from AJ Racing. It varies depending on the exchange rate between USD and CAD on any given day. I've spent more on extra ad ons to the kit (different management, different blow off valve, etc), but it's essentially the same kit. I learned to tune myself, so I didn't have to spend any on that. I chose turbo because it's way more efficient than a supercharger, especially on this itty bitty engine. I actually get much better mileage now that I'm tuned well on the turbo. SC guys usually drop a couple MPG even if they drive easy because the SC is always sapping power through the belt. I get in the low 40s when I cruise at 70-80 on the highway, up from the mid 30s. It actually almost offsets the cost of premium gas!

Also, turbos make a way cooler sound than any supercharger. Plus they make more power.

Originally Posted by bkrell

Can you post your analysis? Or is it posted in the UOAs at bitog? Curious why you wanted to run GC in a Fit???

I'll see if I can't post it. It's a PDF file, so I'm not sure exactly how to post that but I'll play with it. It isn't posted on BITOG ATM, as I just got my first UOA a couple days ago. I go back and forth depending on my mood, GC is usually in the hot summer months when I can see my oil temps get in the low 200-230 range normal driving, and as high as 240 when I beat the snot out of it. These temps are much higher than the stock temps, which were barely 200, so I figured the extra viscosity of GC (it's *almost* a 40wt afterall) combined with my minor fuel dilution thinning out the oil (as seen in my UOA - 1.3% fuel, and my viscosity was just barely under spec) makes for a good combination. The motor runs much quieter (valvetrain and general 'honda tick' wise) on the GC, but that doesn't mean a whole lot.

On the topic of cold weights (the first number in your multi-visc oil), lower is *always* better, assuming the hot qualities of the oil are the same.

That is, a 0w20 will *always* be the oil of choice over a 5w20, assuming the additives and shear stability are the same (which in the case of M1 they more than likely are). Thinner at startup is always good, I don't care who you are or what you drive. 10 and 15w (cold weight) oils are absolutely unneccesary for any engine. I don't usually speak with absolutes like this, as it tends to make an ass out of me when I do, but I feel I can say this with confidence. Even a 0w40 (huge viscosity spread, so it should be very close in absolute viscosity between cold and hot) is going to be on the order of 4 or 5 times thicker at startup than at operating temperature. Anyone who suggests that a higher cold viscosity is necessary for anything but a cool science experiment or making jelly has no idea what they're talking about.


As for hot viscosity, the thinnest you can get while still protecting the engine is always best. I'd bet you'd be surprised how thick 20wt is in the grand scheme of things. There's a pretty large safety margin that Honda builds in there. Some people on BITOG run "featherweight" oils. We're talknig 0W10 here. I've even heard talk of 0W5. I have never seen a documented case of these oils failing to protect an engine. FYI Formula 1 cars are rumored to run on straight 5 or less weight oils. Imagine buying a bottle of oil labled "SAE 2 Weight". That's just about what they do.

[bkrell]

Oh yeah, I followed the bruceblend experiments with the 0W10! One thing I would point out for folks out there, using the term "viscosity spread" is part of the reason people get confused. Really, the closer the numbers are to each other, the more drastic the difference between cold and hot. When the cheistry was a tad less advanced, it was much harder to make oils stay at a "relatively" more stable state when going from cold to hot. To do so, viscosity index improvers (VIIs) are used. Older, low quality VIIs tended to break down and aid in sludging. This is why 10W40 got a bad reputation many years back. It was a bit more prone to breakdown than 10W30 or 15W40.

Now that the chemistry has caught up a bit, 0W40, 5W50, and 10W60 oils are not as unreliable.


Myself, I'm still debating what to use for my next fill. I've got sooo much 30 and 40 weight that it's not even funny. But in all likelyhood, I'll run M1 0W20 if I go synth or Pennzoil 5W20 if I go dino... Of course, if motor oil keeps up its downward trend, synth will be hard to resist.

[explosivpotato]

When I was NA I ran M1 0w20... I'd recommend that. It was good stuff, plus it felt really weird pouring it into the car because of how thin it is compared to conventional 5 or 10w oils.

[der Mond]

It sounds like turbocharging is the way to go, and AJ seems like a great outfit. So it seems that if I accept the science, now that I understand it a bit better, and trust that Honda has built good tolerances into my motor (duh!), then 0W-20 is the year-round way to go. Just can't beat that instant flow on startup. But I have to say that the thinner stuff seems to make for more ticking from the motor. The L15A is a rather tickkety motor at times, especially after running at highway speeds at -30 F. I have come to realize that the ebb-and-flow of ticking noise is normal variation and not a sign that I need to adjust the valves (34K miles). It's just so comforting that the motor is quieter on 0W-40.

[der Mond]

I should add the question: "As for hot viscosity, the thinnest you can get while still protecting the engine is always best." Why is that? It's counterintuitive...doesn't a thicker oil fill the bearing clearances better? Doesn't it add more cushion between the roller tappet and the cam?

[explosivpotato]

Well that's where the qualification "while still protecting the engine" comes in. As long as the bearings are floated at all times, and never make contact, the film thickness doesn't really mean a whole lot. Granted, thicker is generally better as it gives more margin of error before serious damage, but as long as you have an adequate film thickness you should have no contact, and no premature wear.

A thinner oil, however, will flow through a hydrodynamic journal bearing at a higher rate than a thicker one. Remember, oil doesn't get pumped through bearings, it gets pumped to the bearings. The bearings themselves create a high-pressure "wedge" which causes some oil to spray out the sides of the bearing.

A thinner oil (and thus a higher flow rate at a given pressure) will allow for much better cooling of the bearing. Remember that your film thickness will degrade and become very quickly meaningless if the bearing overheats. A thinner oil wil also cause less parasitic drag on the oiling system, thus stressing the parts less.

[der Mond]

This has been a really interesting and valuable discussion, and that last response puts the icing on the cake. I really appreciate it. I suppose I still have PTSD from my 1978 Suburu - I had been using one of the first synthetic oil formulations on the market at the time, I can't even remember the name, but long before Mobil1 and Amsoil. I needed new main bearings - not because of film strength; the bearings and crank main journals never made contact - but I was told that the THICKNESS (thinness) had allowed the bearings to be hammered into the copper by the crank. But this was in a car with an engine block split down the middle and bolted together, and when the halves came together if the surfaces for the bearings didn't add up to perfect circles, it allowed the bearings to be just a hair sloppy. Which is one reason I buy Hondas now instead of Suburus. Thanks again.

[bkrell]

There are certainly differences, but moving up one grade is not going to cause dramatic trauma in a daily driver situation. I am no thick oil proponent, an 0W20 in our cars is a great choice. But a 5W30 isn't going to kill it either.

[Carbuff2]

Originally Posted by bkrell

There are certainly differences, but moving up one grade is not going to cause dramatic trauma in a daily driver situation. I am no thick oil proponent, an 0W20 in our cars is a great choice. But a 5W30 isn't going to kill it either.

Isn't that what I said a few posts back?

[jadr09fit]

Wow, a few other BITOG'ers on here!

We're going to run Pennzoil 5w-20 with whatever premium filter (Wix, NAPA Gold, PureONE) we can get our hands on. Cheap and it works.

[bkrell]

Originally Posted by Carbuff2

Isn't that what I said a few posts back?

Yes. I was making my post in reference, though, to the post a couple back. There can be unnecessary engine strain from running weights thicker than necessary. But no one's going to suffer dire consequences from running 30 weight in this engine-that's all I was saying.

Me, I will run 0 or 5W20 b/c I got an extended warranty and don't want to give Honda ANY excuse to deny it in the admittedly rare chance that something happens to the engine.

I was in the same situation as you when I bought my CR-V new back in 2002. I couldn't find 0 or 5W20 anywhere. I ran M1 5W30 for the first 30k miles. Then M1 0W20 and 5W20 started popping up more and more. Of course, then the 0W20 disappeared for a while. After I really got into bitog back in 2005 and started stashing oil I found on closeout or on sale, I stopped worrying about 20 weights and just used whatever 30 weight I had. For the last 20k miles, I've typically used my stash of old pre-Platinum Pennzoil synth 10W30. It's been fine. Typically, I've run an arx maint dose.

My main concern now is that since the Fit and the new Odyssey both have long warrenties and I'm gonna stick to 20 weights, what to do with the 5W40 synths and 15W40 HDEOs that I used to run in my SAAB. I guess I'll use a quart at a time in my CR-V. For the Odyssey and Fit, I'm going by the maint minder and keeping receipts for oil and filters along with an Excel spreadsheet of dates, mileages, oil used, and maint minder code (A or B).

Yeah, I've been a bitogger since 2003 when I wanted research what oil to use for my used SAAB 900 that I got after having to hand the V over to my wife. But I didn't get hooked until 05 when I got my second SAAB, a 9-5 that had a bit of sludge. After first sparring with Frank to the point that my "bkrell" account got locked, I was allowed to rejoin as BrianWC. Funny enough, after posting good arx results, Frank and I got along fine!

I actually have a thread titled "Fit is Go" in the bitog Automotive general topics forum right now that relates my experiences so far.

[Carbuff2]

FWIW, for years I ran 10W-40 dino in my Acura every summer, no problems. (5W-30 specified)

That car has an automatic and is driven by the Spousal Unit, so it rarely sees high revs (or VTEC use)

In retrospect I can't believe I once thought 5W-30 was SO THIN.

PS If you want to send your leftover 0W-40 to me I'll take it for the price of postage.


Atwell (also a bitog-er)

[bkrell]

Can't part with the stash! Someone suggested I sell it on Craigslist.

[Carbuff2]

Originally Posted by bkrell

Can't part with the stash!

Think of it as a reallocation of assets. NOT a parting of the ways...


(My stash presently numbers about 100 bottles of various bargain oils)

[bkrell]

I'm in the 200 qt plus range. Somewhere around maybe 220-230? I struck it rich on Valvoline when a local PepBoys was remodeling and they had it for $.80 a qt. I also bargained my way into about 60-70 qts of M1 and Pennzoil synth for $2 a qt at a local Advance that was trying to clear it's shelves. Supertech is also a major component as when oil started going up post-Katrina, I grabbed a 5 qt jug of Supertech every Wal-Mart trip since it was still only around $6-7.

[der Mond]

What about the Zinc-Phosphorous content of these various Mobil1 oils and which is best for our engines?

[explosivpotato]

The Zinc-Phosphorous you are referring to, also known as ZDDP, is limited by the EPA for possible damage to catalytic converters. It wont do any damage, really, unless you burn significant amounts of oil, but we all know that you have to shoot for the mean worst scenario when it comes to the layman car owner.

ZDDP is primarily sought after by those who have older cars with flat-tappet lifters. This includes some of the old Chevy and Ford V8s. Some newer cars have flat lifters, but almost all of these use overhead cams (as opposed to pushrods) which allow lighter spring pressures and therefore less wear.

ZDDP's primary use was it's ability to stick to the cam/tappet surfaces to reduce wear during cold starts and high speed use. Remember, the extra weight of the pushrods and larger rocker arms required much heavier valve springs than a similar OHC setup.

That all said, the Fit uses roller bearings on the rocker arms (which follow the cams directly, no lifters here!), and a VERY lightweight lock nut adjustment mechanism, which makes for very low pressures on the cam surfaces.

In short, you really don't need ZDDP on modern cars like the Fit. Just about all of Mobil's 0 and 5W 20 and 30 weight oils are going to have similar ZDDP, with the possible exception of the High Mileage and Racing products. Small, high-strung motors (especially ones with rolling cam chains like ours) benefit most from high lubricity and shear stability- both of which you will get from a motor using high concentrations of Group III, IV, and V (which Mobil 1 does).

[Carbuff2]

Originally Posted by explosivpotato

In short, you really don't need ZDDP on modern cars like the Fit. .

X2

However, if you truly want ZDDP for your engine, it's available as an additive now.


Here's one producer:

ZDDPlus

ZDDPlus™ - ZDDP Additive for Classic Cars - Agricultural Equipment & More


One dealer is R.D. Enterprises in PA

r.d. enterprises ltd. Home Page

Note: No financial benefit from the above firms...just providing a service.

[explosivpotato]

Cool, I never knew you could buy it separately.

Totally not necessary for the Fit, but definitely cool if you've got an old flat-tappet V8.