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TRUE. I wouldn't install a voltage stabilizer in my Fit. Tricolor might be able to post some pictures of it.
Since you dont have a VOLTAGE STABILIZER on your Fit,i dont think you can clearly ANSWER the issue if the VOLTAGE STABILIZER work or doesn't work on a HONDA FIT?Am i right?
There is NEVER a clear resolution in the "science vs. subjective opinion" argument. The answer is equally clear, and equally opposite, to members of both sides. Just look at religion vs. science.
There is NEVER a clear resolution in the "science vs. subjective opinion" argument. The answer is equally clear, and equally opposite, to members of both sides. Just look at religion vs. science.
Since you dont have a VOLTAGE STABILIZER on your Fit,i dont think you can clearly ANSWER the issue if the VOLTAGE STABILIZER work or doesn't work on a HONDA FIT?Am i right?
Sure I can answer the issue - as can anyone - without actually owning a so-called 'voltage stabilizer'. The basis for my answer is knowing what the voltage stabilizer is (a capacitor), and how it is hooked up to the Fit's electrical system. That is all the information that is needed. A voltage stabilizer is not a magical, black box which no one can open; it's a simple electrical component.
Quote:
Originally Posted by manxman
There is NEVER a clear resolution in the "science vs. subjective opinion" argument. The answer is equally clear, and equally opposite, to members of both sides. Just look at religion vs. science.
Proper science is very clear in it's findings. Moreover, many religions are in opposition to science. Christianity, however, is in line with true science. But I digress. Just thought I would chime in about that.
Let us not just say 'to each his own' on scientific topics (such as electricity & magnetism) - there is no relativism in this area; there is abstract physical laws outside of popular opinion. When folks who say, "It works!!!!!!!!!" to a voltage stabilizer are the very ones who own one - it shows a bias. They spent money, and they want to believe it works, but it doesn't... just look at the facts objectively.
I don't care to spend more time on this subject of voltage stabilizers... If you want a REAL voltage stabilizer, like I said before, use a 1:1 transformer to smooth out the waveform. That'll cost you some decent money, though.
As an engineer, guess which side I belong to. No matter how irrefutable your scientific proof is, people will refute it anyway. Religious "creationists" don't believe in evolution regardless of the proof being dug up every day by paleontologists. Look at all the poor people the "educated" people of Salem, MA, burned as witches (a few hundred years ago).
But whether a modification actually works, or the owner just believes that it does, achieves the same thing.
According to science, bees can't fly. Too much body mass, too little wing area. According to Albert Einstein,
"Reality is nothing more than a persistent delusion". Some of us are more persistent in our delusions than others. Some of us are the "prey" that is sought by crooked marketers. Or "delusional inventors".
Last edited by manxman; 06-03-2007 at 08:13 PM.
Reason: add comment
Regardless, of whether a VS works or not, what's really sad are people who use science and scientific knowledge as a justification not to experiment. A basic tenet of the scientific method is experimentation -- without it there is no science, period. Why anyone who calls themselves a scientist or puts such strong faith in science itself would use that same knowledge to justify and promote a desire for complacency and self-imposed ignorence is beyond me, and furthermore no true scientist. People did used to believe the world was flat, and they used the science of the time to prove and maintain that belief. That is, until someone questioned that and proved them wrong. If the VS doesn't work, I'm out $80 and some time. If it does work, however, then you're out the chance to prove yourself wrong and discover something new. You tell me which one's the bigger loss.
In any case, there's no desire to argue anything with anybody here. Personally, what I'd really like to see is someone who does have knowledge about electrical engineering actually buy and test one. I freely admit I don't have the test equipment or background to do that kind of testing, so to have someone do that would be really useful and I'd like to see the data.
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'07 Vivid Blue Pearl Sport w/stuff attached in useful places
AppleMac*Fit, what kind of electrician are you? Do you have PCB-level experience or is it more or less 'household/industrial' level electrical? Not to undermine your opinion, just curious on your background...IC design is very different than running copper to a breaker panel or setting up some industrial 480 3 phase supply.
[quote=AppleMac*Fit;145367]Thus says an electrician (me)...
A capacitor is only effective at stabilizing voltages in AC (alternating current - such as in your home)... not DC (such as in your car). In an AC system, it helps to eliminate ripple current, and straighten out the waveform of the AC pulse.
If one REALLY wanted to stabilize the voltage in a DC system, a 1:1 transformer would help somewhat... but the effects would likely be minimal.
The electricity of a car is known as 12VDC. There is no questionning about that. But the alternator that supply or maintain the juice to the system is AC (for Alternative Current). This supply is regulated (or translated into DC) through a sort of "bridge of Diodes" integrated nowadays in the Alternator itself. And this supplied current is neat and clean under 13.2V but rough and full of ripples above.
The battery itself cleans out part of that noise as it a chemical accumulator. But I beleive that high peaks and harmonic noises are carried out in the whole system... unless filterd by a voltage stabilyser. I would not swear on this statement since I did not put a car charging system under an oscilloscope, but I welcome anyone to give it a try
I have not installed mine yet as I am waiting for nice weather to work outside. And even then I will not be able to compare gas milage since I never kept records
Siding on the "science" side, I would also be interested in any measurable effect of adding this component.
As far as short term changes in calculated mileage, I have observed more than 10% variance in fuel economy between tanks of gas, with no modifications at all (hmmm, I did the A/C-defroster mod, and my last few tanks have been better, even though I haven't used the defroster setting since.) I've made a couple of posts on my theories concerning those fill variances in the Eco-Fit forum.
Checking the electrical system waveform and logging the system voltage under operating conditions might be able to identify if the VS has any effect. I'm not an EE, nor do I play one on TV, but I would believe the theory that it might just clip voltage spikes, if it did, the result would be cleaner power.
Eric
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Cars that I currently own/drive
2007 BOM Fit Sport 5A
2002 Sebring Limited convertable
1989 Chev 4WD Suburban
1975 Porsche 914 Renegaded 327 V8
1915 Ford Model T Touring (stock)
Speaking as a professional engineer with plenty of PCB design experience, placing capacitors of various values across the battery terminals will definitely smooth out some of the noise in your electrical system. How this could conceivably translate into better mpg is completely beyond me. Better sound from your stereo maybe, but mpg seems pretty far fetched. If I get around to it I will take some oscilloscope measurements across the battery terminals under various load conditions on my stock fit. If the noise levels turn out to be alarming I might drop $10-15 on some caps from DigiKey to try and smooth things out...just for grins.
This supply is regulated (or translated into DC) through a sort of "bridge of Diodes" integrated nowadays in the Alternator itself. And this supplied current is neat and clean under 13.2V but rough and full of ripples above.
The "Bridge of diodes" is a full-wave bridge rectifier (4 diodes), which turns the AC coming from the alternator into pulsing DC. So think of a sine wave... to picture what the output waveform is, just take the negative alternation of the sine wave, and flip it over the 0-volt line (like a mirror image). What you end up is is a pulsing DC waveform that looks like a bunch of upside-down "U"s. Think of the following upside down: UUUUUUUUUUU That's what the resulting DC waveform looks like.
The only way to clean this up is a 1:1 transformer... like I said earlier.
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NHBP Fit Mods:Tint (27% sides, 20% rear)... max legal in SC Louder horn, Self-install aux jack, Undercoating, jerry-rigged sound proofing, Rubber floor mats, ScanGauge-II, Lightened gas-foot.
AppleMac*Fit, what kind of electrician are you? Do you have PCB-level experience or is it more or less 'household/industrial' level electrical? Not to undermine your opinion, just curious on your background...IC design is very different than running copper to a breaker panel or setting up some industrial 480 3 phase supply.
I'm in the military - not some roughneck industrial electrician speaking outside his repertoire of knowledge (not that there's anything wrong with being an industrial electrician who, as you stated just "[runs] copper to a breaker panel.").
I have professional PCB design/assembly/installation experience (including schooling in it), as well as Industrial/Commercial/Civilian electrical (all the associated schooling there as well and shipboard electrical experience.
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NHBP Fit Mods:Tint (27% sides, 20% rear)... max legal in SC Louder horn, Self-install aux jack, Undercoating, jerry-rigged sound proofing, Rubber floor mats, ScanGauge-II, Lightened gas-foot.
2007 Honda Fit, 1998 Honda Civic EX
Last edited by AppleMac*Fit; 06-20-2007 at 05:24 PM.
Reason: Edited
I don't get why you need a 1:1 transformer and not just use capacitors like all the other AC to DC convertors out there, which is essentially what this stabilizer is doing.
Maybe you need the transformer if you want an extremely flat dc wave, but caps will get you close enough... like this....
Thanks AppleMac*Fit for your response....understand I wasn't trying to flame, just was curious.
I looked at your link. I think the only missing from this is the concept of load on the circuit...his example is not representative of the installation of these stabilizers on a vehicle electrical bus. The capacitor doesn't just charge and stay charged in this application, but is continually charging and discharging at a rate proportional to the load. Also, believe alternators are supplying 3-phase (6 diodes).
Edit:
I'm not sure what parts are in these voltage stabilizers, but one good form of capacitor input filter combines capacitors with an inductor which dumps the excess ripple to ground leaving nearly pure DC output. These are referred to as pi-filters too.
Last edited by sonorliteman; 06-20-2007 at 06:00 PM.
Which leads back to the question of how this can effect your fuel economy. Even if the available DC voltage is cleaner/smoother, how can it make the engine produce the same power with less fuel? Or more power with the same fuel or more?
The engine needs air, fuel and ignition, in the right amounts (air/fuel), at the right time (spark). Do we think that the ECU sensors deliver degraded data due to voltage fluctuations? Do we think that the ECU performs bad calculations from the same? Do we think that the car would run richer (wasting gas) as a result? Do we think that the stock fluctuations in voltage can cause the coils to deliver insufficient or mis-timed spark?
I don't belive that any of these things are happening without a VS, but I can't think of any other voltage related things that could affect the car's fuel economy or power.
Eric
__________________
Cars that I currently own/drive
2007 BOM Fit Sport 5A
2002 Sebring Limited convertable
1989 Chev 4WD Suburban
1975 Porsche 914 Renegaded 327 V8
1915 Ford Model T Touring (stock)
I'm not sure what parts are in these voltage stabilizers, but one good form of capacitor input filter combines capacitors with an inductor which dumps the excess ripple to ground leaving nearly pure DC output. These are referred to as pi-filters too.
The inductor is actually in series with the load, here's a link showing a typical pi filter , it's the second circuit from the top. It doesn't look like the "voltage stabilizer" products are implementing a pi filter since they appear to just connect across the battery terminals in parallel with the load.
Well, that link does indeed say that, "Capacitors do not play an important role in dc circuits". If you read the next line you will see a very important bit of math: "the current stops flowing as soon as the charge on the positive plate reaches the value ". This is how a capacitor helps stabilize the output from the bridge rectifier. When the bridge output voltage is higher than the voltage on the capacitor, charge (current) flows in. When the bridge output voltage is lower than the voltage on the cap, charge flows out, this charge storage and release has a stabilizing effect on the output voltage and results in a waveform like the one posted by jlauteam1.
I am also having real trouble figuring out what possible use a 1:1 transformer would be in this situation.
On old cars (say an AE86) it pays to improve the stock grounding wires (as they're usually very rusty and not doing a great job anymore). Remember that most (if not all) cars come with a grounding wire from factory and all you're doing is simply beefing it up. It really can't hurt so it's a worthy mod in my eyes.
Now about these newer fancy gizmos that go a little further than just a simple ground wire kit... I say they do work as I've seen a local magazine do a dyno test which achieved gains.
On a tiny little 1.3 car they got hardly any improvement (half a kw/1hp gain) but on a Nissan Skyline GT-R they saw quite a bit more. Interesting huh?
I feel that all those people saying that they felt a difference by putting one on are surely just fooling themselves... but in the end of the day it doesn't hurt to try one.
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If you want a REAL voltage stabilizer, like I said before, use a 1:1 transformer to smooth out the waveform. That'll cost you some decent money, though.
on the positive plate reaches the value 
". This is how a capacitor helps stabilize the output from the bridge rectifier. When the bridge output voltage is higher than the voltage on the capacitor, charge (current) flows in. When the bridge output voltage is lower than the voltage on the cap, charge flows out, this charge storage and release has a stabilizing effect on the output voltage and results in a waveform like the one posted by jlauteam1.
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