General Voltage Stabilizer Puzzle Thread

[Chikubi]

Originally Posted by thedeadpoet000

How many miles do you have on your Fit? Is it possible that the better mileage could be due to the engine breaking in and running better?

I know my question is a little off topic but I'm just trying to compare everyone's input and experiences.

Edit: How many more MPG are you getting? Do you have the Ignition Booster AND the Voltage Stabilizer, or just one of the two?

Hi, didn't notice your questions here until just now.

Right now I have somewhat over 5K on the car (live really close to work ). I've only got the Booster installed at the moment, though I did buy the VS as well (been too lazy to install it yet). The three tanks into it since the booster have been 33.4, 31.1, and 31.4. I would say the change was definitely due to the booster as the increases only started once it was installed, and prior to it my average was ~28 mpg for the whole year (had the car since 4/20/06) w/o one tank in the 30's ever. In my opinion though, I think that the gain would be even higher were I doing lots more highway driving as the 33.4 tank included 105 miles of backroad spirited driving (high revs, high speeds) whereas the following tanks were just my normal 5 miles a day round trip to work here in town + 1 autocross. From this point on though, my mpg results won't really apply to the addition of the booster anymore as I put on my J's center-pipe just recently so the setup is different now.

[i-Fit]

Do u think a grounding kit can give benefit to drive by wire care like honda fit.
what brand should i buy.

[phil_qc]

It's only a set of 0 gauge electric wires with loop connectors...
It should be very inexpensive and some vendors sell these kit
for $100. Go to an electronic parts store and make your own.
It should not be over $20. There is no better kit, again, it's a
set of wires, that's all. Your car already have a ground wire;
it's not bad to ad some others but just a waist of money. Drive
by wire is a mouse connected to a PC, sometime, it can be fast
but it can also lag... gaz pedal send info to the ECU and ECU send
info to throttle body... (more complicated than that but you know
what I mean)


Philippe

[boyetssilverfit]

phil qc is right on the money,if you can make your owm grounding wire go for it,grounding wire will not imroved your mpg nor you will gain hp,it will only imroved the resistance of your existing grounding kit that is presently installed in your car.

[lubricus]

Hello,
I'm new here, and reading through this thread has been interesting, if only to see how much people care about their fits.

I really don't want to start another war, but I have to ask because I'd really like the opinion of a EE, and there seems to be a few of them here.

As pointed out before, unlike voltage regulators, grounding wires are (of course) part of the OEM design. There is at least one car I know (lancer evo), that offers upgraded grounding wires as a factory option. So, it seems like at least some manufacturer engineers think it's a good idea. (unless, they just really know their customers and it's a gimmick) No doubt a bigger wire: more robust connection = probably better.

The thing about the kits offered (and advice offered about DIY), is that the kits all attach to different points, and there's very little guidance about where specifically to attach the ends of a DIY grounding kit.

OK, so here's my question: I have a little experience with DIY electronics, and when putting together a project, it's always a good idea to worry about ground loops. That is, when a circuit has multiple pathways to ground, the result can be MORE NOISE, not less.

So, what to the engineers think: Could a grounding kit actually make your car electronics perform WORSE, unless the grounding points are very well researched? (and I can't see that they are, since different kits seem to attach all over in different places.)

Again, not trying to start a war, it's just that this is the kind of thing where
the people who sell/have them swear by them, so it's hard to get good information. Note also: the people posting the contrarian viewpoint are not trying to attack the people who bought these things, (or least, it's probably not their main goal), but are just trying to present what they know to save your money and possibly protect your car, so cut them some slack.

[jazzista]

Hello,
I'm a newbye of this group but I'm an EE, and I absolutely confirm your point. Ground loops are definitely an issue (at least in audio components and system I'm addicted to).

About cars, I sincerely admit my bold ignorance, but I would look for the grounding point used by factory and connecting with a star pattern all sensible devices to that one, while removing other attachments.

BTW, I would go with solid core wire (magnet wire should be both nice to be seen and good for conducting).

About noise filtering, I remember I found a post of a user who detected RFI emission from his FIT. Wouldn't it be sensible to add some caps paralleled and located as near as possible to any device (ECU, A/C, alternator and so on), rather than add a single can of caps (I would avoid coils, I don't know the signaling of ECU and the signals which drives spark, and the coil would surely smooth down transients:don't know if this would be a good thing).

Ciao,

Stefano

[Injundon]

Sorry I got onto this so late. But it's 95% snake oil.

Just to start with some simple facts.
Battery baseline voltage is 12.6V for fully charged battery. Anything higher and it's either a capacitative surface sharge or the company added another set of plates by accident.

Alternator charging voltage on newer cars is regulated according to load and charge. If you first start your car after leaving it a few days your alternator might charge as high as 15.2volts. But once everything is charged and alternator heats up it'll usually drop to around 13.8 for most cars.

Alternators generate A/C eletricity which is then converted to DC electricity using 4 bigass diodes (recitifier pack). Problem with this is that it generates what is called Pulse DC. Each time tn AC waveform is is converted to DC through the rectifier pack there's a momentarily loss of any voltage being created. So it's not a perfect DC flow. it's not A/C either it's just on/off faster than even an LED will react.

This sound any audio people would know as engine noise in your sound system. the sound waveform of engine noise looks something like this on an oscilliscope ------__------__------ the wave never goes pack to negative. the dash marks would be positive charge the underscores would be no electron flow.

Your cars battery is an amazingly good filter to stabilize this puled DC behavior that recifier packs create. a Capacitor inline on the postive terminal (between alternator and bettery) would work well in filtering the pulsed DC effect. Anything after the battery to an electrical device would have no practicle difference.

a voltage stabilizer Might have a miniscure effect on the cars ECM by allowing it's CPU and board to operate with no theoretical voltage fluctuation. this might have a good or bad effect but it would be pretty much negligable since the cars ECM has a votage regulator built into it.

On the issue of grounding kits. They do improve overall voltages around the car by decreasing resistance to ground path. If improperly gounded like a mess of wires all over it could cause a problematic gruond loop effect. IN car audio we refer to this as the "big 3" this would give you the best overall electrical performance boost.

Upgrade your wire from your alternator to battery/fusible link/fuse box to a guage suitable to your alternators output. Generally 4 guage wire is more than adequete for a stock charging system.(bigger is always better though). Step 2 of this is the battery to chassis ground. Usually in most cars a short run of 8 or 10 guage wire to a painted bolt. Lots of potetnial for parasitic loss there. So get some sand paper out. Remove the factory ground bolt. Sand the metal where the connector ring makes contact. wire brush the bolt threads and apply some dialectric grease. Upgrade that wire to 4 guage and clamp down and paint the bolt and area where you sanded to prevent rust.

LAst is the engine to battery ground. Generally taking a bolt out on engine block from a mounting bracket works best. again 4 guage at least. The cars battery is 12.6V alternator is 14.4V. The alternators ground point is the engine. If your alternator is not grounded sufficiently. (usually engine ground starp only it can cause bigger voltage fluctuations under loads. Usually seen as headlights dimming.

Electricity flows from negative to positive. Some douchebag car engineer decided at one point to work backwards with the cars electricals system. bigger/better grounds the extremely important.

I've seen from sound dydtems voltages dipping below 9Volts on honda alternators. With the "big 3" upgrade alone voltages held over 12.6V. 30% voltage stability improvement ...

Any questions post here or I'm always available by PM

[jtallen123]

Originally Posted by Injundon

Sorry I got onto this so late. But it's 95% snake oil.

Just to start with some simple facts.
Battery baseline voltage is 12.6V for fully charged battery. Anything higher and it's either a capacitative surface sharge or the company added another set of plates by accident.

Alternator charging voltage on newer cars is regulated according to load and charge. If you first start your car after leaving it a few days your alternator might charge as high as 15.2volts. But once everything is charged and alternator heats up it'll usually drop to around 13.8 for most cars.

Alternators generate A/C eletricity which is then converted to DC electricity using 4 bigass diodes (recitifier pack). Problem with this is that it generates what is called Pulse DC. Each time tn AC waveform is is converted to DC through the rectifier pack there's a momentarily loss of any voltage being created. So it's not a perfect DC flow. it's not A/C either it's just on/off faster than even an LED will react.

This sound any audio people would know as engine noise in your sound system. the sound waveform of engine noise looks something like this on an oscilliscope ------__------__------ the wave never goes pack to negative. the dash marks would be positive charge the underscores would be no electron flow.

Your cars battery is an amazingly good filter to stabilize this puled DC behavior that recifier packs create. a Capacitor inline on the postive terminal (between alternator and bettery) would work well in filtering the pulsed DC effect. Anything after the battery to an electrical device would have no practicle difference.

a voltage stabilizer Might have a miniscure effect on the cars ECM by allowing it's CPU and board to operate with no theoretical voltage fluctuation. this might have a good or bad effect but it would be pretty much negligable since the cars ECM has a votage regulator built into it.

On the issue of grounding kits. They do improve overall voltages around the car by decreasing resistance to ground path. If improperly gounded like a mess of wires all over it could cause a problematic gruond loop effect. IN car audio we refer to this as the "big 3" this would give you the best overall electrical performance boost.

Upgrade your wire from your alternator to battery/fusible link/fuse box to a guage suitable to your alternators output. Generally 4 guage wire is more than adequete for a stock charging system.(bigger is always better though). Step 2 of this is the battery to chassis ground. Usually in most cars a short run of 8 or 10 guage wire to a painted bolt. Lots of potetnial for parasitic loss there. So get some sand paper out. Remove the factory ground bolt. Sand the metal where the connector ring makes contact. wire brush the bolt threads and apply some dialectric grease. Upgrade that wire to 4 guage and clamp down and paint the bolt and area where you sanded to prevent rust.

LAst is the engine to battery ground. Generally taking a bolt out on engine block from a mounting bracket works best. again 4 guage at least. The cars battery is 12.6V alternator is 14.4V. The alternators ground point is the engine. If your alternator is not grounded sufficiently. (usually engine ground starp only it can cause bigger voltage fluctuations under loads. Usually seen as headlights dimming.

Electricity flows from negative to positive. Some douchebag car engineer decided at one point to work backwards with the cars electricals system. bigger/better grounds the extremely important.

I've seen from sound dydtems voltages dipping below 9Volts on honda alternators. With the "big 3" upgrade alone voltages held over 12.6V. 30% voltage stability improvement ...

Any questions post here or I'm always available by PM

As an EE I think this is a very good post.

[Injundon]

Gonna have to spell check/edit next time. sorry for the spelling.

[jazzista]

Hi,

<snip>
Your cars battery is an amazingly good filter to stabilize this puled DC behavior that recifier packs create.
</snip>

the battery acts as a stabilizer for the voltage? How can it? The battery isn't a smoothing cap and it's in parallel to alternator and devices: I guess all the V fluctuation/noise generated by the alternator goes to the devices.

Besides there is the noise generated by diodes' commutation. This is a HF noise, usually filtered by adding parallel caps to each diode.

Or one might add one coil on both + and - and a cap to smooth current bursts (good old pi-filter).

<snip>
a Capacitor inline on the postive terminal (between alternator and bettery) would work well in filtering the pulsed DC effect.
</snip>

I guess you mean paralleled between + and - of alternator, do you?

<snip>
a voltage stabilizer Might have a miniscure effect on the cars ECM by allowing it's CPU and board to operate with no theoretical voltage fluctuation. this might have a good or bad effect but it would be pretty much negligable since the cars ECM has a votage regulator built into it.
</snip>

Things like RFI are not the "core business" of regulators, that's why I suppose that rather than placing some caps in parallel of battery, they would be more useful near sensitive devices.

Thanks for the how2 on improving masses, I'll do that on my Fit/Jazz.

Stefano

[Injundon]

the battery acts as a stabilizer for the voltage? How can it? The battery isn't a smoothing cap and it's in parallel to alternator and devices: I guess all the V fluctuation/noise generated by the alternator goes to the devices.

Besides there is the noise generated by diodes' commutation. This is a HF noise, usually filtered by adding parallel caps to each diode.

Or one might add one coil on both + and - and a cap to smooth current bursts (good old pi-filter).

The battery provides unpulsed 12.6V DC it greatly decreases the little momentary losses in voltage. Basically turns momentary 0V into 12.6V causing much less of a voltage dip. A car dead car battery (low electrolite content) an cause factory sound systems to pic up this infamous "alternator whine"

Putting a capacitor inline between the alternator and battery will almost ompletely illiminate this. It's not being used as a passive crossover to filter certain frequencies it simply receives the charge from the aternator and holds it's own charge which eleminates the pulsed DC effect reaching your battery(and fuse box which is where all the restof the electronics are wired back to in your car).

Things like RFI are not the "core business" of regulators, that's why I suppose that rather than placing some caps in parallel of battery, they would be more useful near sensitive devices.

The collapsing voltage the alternator creates at 14.4V isn't enough to cause an RFI interferance. Voltage is simply not enough. It can cause megnetically induced current flow inside electrinic devices which in the car environment has no effect except in devices that put out audio signal. Take a cheap non shielded speaker attach about a foot of speaker to it and don't connect anything to othe rendsof the wire. Place the speaker near your home electrical panels main input wire (220V) and you'll hear the speaker hum at 60hz. It's not RFI. It's just an effect the magnetic field created around a wire has when there is current running through it.

[jazzista]

Hi Donald,
I guess we're talking of 2 different things.

I'm not expert on car circuits, anyway following what described on Alternator Secrets,
I see that typical car alternator are three phase. Now, look at the envelope of the rectified waves: no 0 DC of course, only some ripple. Besides alternators are usually followed by a regulator circuit, aimed to keep the ripple even lower.

So I don't think we should have a problem of Voltage. Besides, a charged battery would somewhat guarantee the 12Vdc.

I think that main value of these "stabilizers" might be in filtering HF noise injected by alternator in the otherwise battery-clean circuit (for a hi-fi demo, you don't power the car, right? ) which might impair electronic devices such as ECU.

But HF noise filtering is better when done as near as possible to devices, because HF noise would be "received" and would propagate on the whole circuit anyway.

I hope I made my point clear. Anyway I'll try something and would report my findings.

Ciao,

Stefano

[jtallen123]

I'm not an expert on RF interference, so I'm not gona be much help in that regard. But from what I know about electrical system design is that when they design their components they know what kind of system they are in and design things to work properly in such an environment. Usually they regulate voltage again at the circuit board level in addition to what they do at the alternator, and if they worry about such things, noise filters too. As such I'm not sure how a voltage stabilizer would produce a noticable difference in HP or MPG. I know the Fit is heavily electronicly controlled but the engine is still very much a mechanical process.

Grounding systems that are undersized will get warm and cause possible voltage drop in extreme loads, but I'd be very surprised if a production vehicle would have such problems right from the factory. I can see a car after many years benifiting from a replacement, but my brand new Fit won't need anything in that area.

Just my thoughts about a stock car from someone who designs skid steer electrical systems for a living.

[Sugarphreak]

Ok, I think I may finally have a way to put this whole Voltage Stabilizer debate to bed for good.

The Claim:
These things increase overall vehical efficency resulting in a slight power gain, increased throttle responce, smoother vehical operation & reduced gas consumption.

The Problems of resolving this ever-lasting debate:
1) Too many subjective tests; none of the tests conducted are strict enough to rule out everything from humidity to altitude or even a slight change in driving style. You can easily argue the results.
2) Too many conflicting theories; sure some things may actually be true, but they are way too small to cause any kind of change... or are they? Nobody really knows, I have seen like 10 different reasons why this thing works or does not work with nothing confirmed.

The Solution!
To run a controlled test which nobody can argue the results; How?

Unfortonatly real world tests are too subjective and lets be honest here, if you pretended to hook one of these units up to somebody's car and just left it unhooked I am sure they would sit there and say "Oh Wow, what a difference". I am not saying people are stupid, it is a natural human instinct to believe it works.

Ok, here is my idea. This method has been used in the past to de-bunk many gas-saving myth products and I think it will work here too.

Approch an Air-Care facility and work out an agreed price to run a control test and a product test. Using the dynamometer and tailpipe emission sensors you can very easily tell if the vehical is running more efficently by the type of emissions produced. If there is no signifigant change between the control and the product test the product is de-bunked. I have seen several gas-saver products sucsessfully tested using this method.

Unfortonatly out here in Alberta they don't believe in reducing emissions, so I have no access to them or honestly I would just go do it myself. Personally I think it is the responcibility of the manufacturer to be providing this information.

[jeimusu86]

i know this is prolly the wrong thread...but do u guys hear an electric buzz noise or a clicking noise before u start ur car

[GSRswapandslow]

Originally Posted by jeimusu86

i know this is prolly the wrong thread...but do u guys hear an electric buzz noise or a clicking noise before u start ur car

lol...dude that's just he main relay clicking on the fuel pump priming, if you DON'T HEAR THAT...you have a problem

[hondaf1racing]

I was asking this same question when I had my RSX. One person who ran his own shop found that making your own ground kit with 2 4AWG wires was about as effective as those voltage stabilizer and grounding kits. They ran them on a dyno and found no difference.

DIY Ground wire installation guide. - Club RSX Message Board

[kusojiji]

I installed the Sun Hyperground system over the stock grounding system. I used anti-oxidant on all the connections, blah, blah, blah. It didn't make a da#@ difference.

My main goal for adding the ground was to try to get the tranny to shift better. Mine seems to hold the gear too long and shifts hard. I was hoping to clean up the power with a better ground (remove a possible ground loop), but nothing changed. Mileage didn't change either. Maybe my tranny really is bad.

[claymore]

Originally Posted by kusojiji

My main goal for adding the ground was to try to get the tranny to shift better. Mine seems to hold the gear too long and shifts hard. I was hoping to clean up the power with a better ground (remove a possible ground loop), but nothing changed. Mileage didn't change either. Maybe my tranny really is bad.

Please enlighten us all as to how installing a ground would have any effect on the transmission???

[kusojiji]

Get rid of a possible ground loop to enable the electronically controlled transmission to function better(?). Or equal the ground potential between the electronic pieces.