Greddy E-Manage Tuning
#1
11-09-2008, 06:57 PM
Greddy E-Manage Tuning
Well, I got a couple of PM's about tuning and voltage clamps, so I thought I'd write up everything I know about tuning the Greddy E-manage.
I'm far from an expert on this, so if anyone has anything to add please feel free!
Disclaimer: I take no responsibility for any damage done to your car by improper tuning. This is a guide based on my experience, nothing more.
Start from the beginning:
So, you've got your T1R turbo kit (or any other kit for that matter), and you're using the Greddy E-manage Ultimate for management. What do you do?
Well, if you bought a kit, your E-manage probably came with a base map for your setup. This map might work alright, or it might run like poop. It's really hard to tell unless you have the right tools, and this is not the type of thing you want to be in the dark with.
To start with, you'll need the right tools:
You could theoretically do this without a wideband, but it's REALLY not a good idea. You can't get nearly the accuracy you need to tune.
So, you're sitting in the car with your wideband in front of you and your laptop on your passenger seat. It's time to
Start Tuning:
The first thing to do is to start up your laptop (must be windows-based) with the support tool and EMU drivers installed (on the CD that came with your EMU). Once you connect your USB cable, turn your ignition ON, but do not start the engine.
Your support tool should show ONLINE in the bottom right of the window, and you should get a confirmation box that asks if you want to import data from the E-Manage.
Click YES.
You will now have the base map on your E-Manage tool. You will see a bunch of different maps on the left hand side of your window in a file tree. Open up the Airflow Adjustment map, I/J adjustment map, and the Boost Limiter Cut setting map.
If you don't see any of these maps, you can activate them by clicking the little blue car at the top of the screen in the menu bar (called "Parameters" if you roll the mouse over it). Once you're in the parameters box, click "maps" and activate the maps you need. Click "Apply," and "OK". While you're there, you should make sure your Injector Adjustment is right. You should click the 'Injector' tab, and make sure the before and after injector sizes are right. The stock is 185cc, and the T1R kit comes with 310cc injectors. This parameter is already set in the T1R base map.
The first thing you'll need to do is get rid of the Base adjustments. In the T1R kit, this is done in the Airflow Adjustment map. Go to this map, and zero out everything (easily done by clicking the top right box in the spreadsheet and typing '0').
Next, you need a MAP Voltage clamp to avoid CEL's and Limp mode when your ECU sees boost. Go to the Boost Limiter Cut setting map, and make all the values 2.95v. This will prevent the ECU from seeing anything over ~15psi absolute, or roughly atmospheric pressure.
Now, start the car. The built-in injector adjustment should take care of the idle. If adjustments need to be made, do them with the injector adjustment in the parameters window.
NOTE:
The fit's ECU is VERY good at adjusting for wrong tuning settings. This usually doesn't make much difference, as long as you're running the right AFR's, but if your map is too rich or too lean, you'll throw a code. I threw P0171, fuel system TOO LEAN. So, even though I was running good AFR's, my fuel trims were off. So, I changed the AFTER injector size to 290cc from 310 in the parameters tab. This richened up my whole map, and no more codes!
Adjusting the Map Scale:
Now that you're looking at your I/J map, you'll notice that the scale might not be to your liking.
I set mine to go to 8psi on the lefthand column, and 7000 RPM on the top row. To do this, choose beginning and ending values (IE 0psi and 8psi) and use the "Interpolate Rows" or "Interpolate Columns" in the edit drop-down menu.
You only really need 1 or 2 rows for Vacuum (below 0Psi), so you can choose negative values for 1 or 2 rows, then make a row for 0, one at the end for 8Psi, and interpolate to make a smooth distribution. The RPM row at the top should be smooth, from 500 or so to 7000 or so rpm. Make sure to interpolate!
Now that you've made this change, save your map. Since you're connected in real-time, saving will update the main unit. If you're not sure, click the "update main unit" button at the top menu bar.
So, now that you've got a map, you need values. To be safe, I'd put 100's in the bottom left and bottom right (that would be 8Psi and 7000 rpm and 8Psi and 500 rpm). Now, select everything from 0psi at 500RPM all the way over to 8Psi and 7000rpm. Now, pull down the 'Edit' menu and select 'Interpolate 4 corners'.
Now, you have a boost map that should be workable. Make sure your E-manage is updated, and go for a drive. Your wideband (you DO have one, right?) should show the AFR oscillating around 14-15 at idle and while driving around.
On empty roads, do a few 3rd gear pulls if possible (higher gear = more load, and a slower pull so you have more time to see the AFR changes) while watching the AFRs. It might help to have someone in the car to help you watch things.
Now that you've seen how the AFR's are in boost, you can adjust. I had to pull fuel in high RPMs in boost, and pull a little more from the low rpms.
Make sure you interpolate your changes!
Now you can work with the timing maps. I have a total of 6.5 degrees of advance in boost. You can add more in vaccum to help with fuel economy. I have about 10* in the cruise portion of the timing map.
This is just a baseline guide for tuning. After playing with my map for an hour or two, I've got a map I'm really happy with. I'm running 11.5 Air:fuel in boost, and NO CODES!
Let me know if you guys have any suggestions for this, I'm hoping we can make a full guide for people to tune their own E-Manage. When I was learning, there was a disturbing lack of information on tuning the E-Manage.
Maybe once we've got this perfected, maybe we can get this stickied!
EDITS:
Extra tools, Datalogging:
Map trace:
By clicking the "Logger" drop down menu, and choosing "Map Trace," you can activate one of the E-Manage's Map Tracing feature. Here, the active cell in all active maps will be highlighted, so you (or your tuning assistant) can see what cell you are in when you need to make adjustments. This is really useful, as you know EXACTLY what the problem cell is.
Datalogging:
In the Logger drop-down menu, choose "datalog." This will open a new menu, where you can choose the time interval and channels for datalogging. When you press the START button, the unit will begin logging all selected parameters. This is especially useful when you connect your wideband to the E-Manage. You can log things like RPM, AFR, Injector Duty Cycle, and a whole mess of other parameters and look at the graph later.
Advanced Tactics:
This one was posted by artieman:
little lesson for you guys and gals...if you have a fuel ratio of 10.8:1 and want 12.5:1 whats the percent of adjustment...well the trick for this is have over want....you have 10.8:1 and want 12.5:1....so take 10.8 and divide it by 12.5...gives you 0.864....so take the fuel value in that cell...lets say its a value of 285 in the cell....take 285 and times it by 0.864 and thats your corrected value....can work for any value in the cell doesnt matter if its a value or time in ms
cell value of 285 give you 10.8:1 on a/f for that cell and you want 12.5:1.....take 285x0.864 and youll get 246.24 (just round it 246) and youll be about dead on for 12.5:1
some tuning systems also do it by a correction factor...where a value of 1 means no change...so if you have a value of 1 in that fuel cell and get 10.8:1 a/f ratio put 0.864 (or round it to 0.8) and it should put you at your target of 12.5:1
other systems do it by ms or milliseconds...time based...so if 11ms gives you 10.8 then take 11 and times it by 0.864 which is 9.504 or about 9.5ms to get 12.5:1
have/want ...easy to remember
^^
This is a much better method than guessing/checking like I did the first time around.
I'm far from an expert on this, so if anyone has anything to add please feel free!
Disclaimer: I take no responsibility for any damage done to your car by improper tuning. This is a guide based on my experience, nothing more.
Start from the beginning:
So, you've got your T1R turbo kit (or any other kit for that matter), and you're using the Greddy E-manage Ultimate for management. What do you do?
Well, if you bought a kit, your E-manage probably came with a base map for your setup. This map might work alright, or it might run like poop. It's really hard to tell unless you have the right tools, and this is not the type of thing you want to be in the dark with.
To start with, you'll need the right tools:
- A laptop with a USB 2.0 A-B cable
- The Greddy E-manage support tool (should have come with your EMU)
- A wideband O2 gauge like the AEM UEGO Wideband
You could theoretically do this without a wideband, but it's REALLY not a good idea. You can't get nearly the accuracy you need to tune.
So, you're sitting in the car with your wideband in front of you and your laptop on your passenger seat. It's time to
Start Tuning:
The first thing to do is to start up your laptop (must be windows-based) with the support tool and EMU drivers installed (on the CD that came with your EMU). Once you connect your USB cable, turn your ignition ON, but do not start the engine.
Your support tool should show ONLINE in the bottom right of the window, and you should get a confirmation box that asks if you want to import data from the E-Manage.
Click YES.
You will now have the base map on your E-Manage tool. You will see a bunch of different maps on the left hand side of your window in a file tree. Open up the Airflow Adjustment map, I/J adjustment map, and the Boost Limiter Cut setting map.
If you don't see any of these maps, you can activate them by clicking the little blue car at the top of the screen in the menu bar (called "Parameters" if you roll the mouse over it). Once you're in the parameters box, click "maps" and activate the maps you need. Click "Apply," and "OK". While you're there, you should make sure your Injector Adjustment is right. You should click the 'Injector' tab, and make sure the before and after injector sizes are right. The stock is 185cc, and the T1R kit comes with 310cc injectors. This parameter is already set in the T1R base map.
The first thing you'll need to do is get rid of the Base adjustments. In the T1R kit, this is done in the Airflow Adjustment map. Go to this map, and zero out everything (easily done by clicking the top right box in the spreadsheet and typing '0').
Next, you need a MAP Voltage clamp to avoid CEL's and Limp mode when your ECU sees boost. Go to the Boost Limiter Cut setting map, and make all the values 2.95v. This will prevent the ECU from seeing anything over ~15psi absolute, or roughly atmospheric pressure.
Now, start the car. The built-in injector adjustment should take care of the idle. If adjustments need to be made, do them with the injector adjustment in the parameters window.
NOTE:
The fit's ECU is VERY good at adjusting for wrong tuning settings. This usually doesn't make much difference, as long as you're running the right AFR's, but if your map is too rich or too lean, you'll throw a code. I threw P0171, fuel system TOO LEAN. So, even though I was running good AFR's, my fuel trims were off. So, I changed the AFTER injector size to 290cc from 310 in the parameters tab. This richened up my whole map, and no more codes!
Adjusting the Map Scale:
Now that you're looking at your I/J map, you'll notice that the scale might not be to your liking.
I set mine to go to 8psi on the lefthand column, and 7000 RPM on the top row. To do this, choose beginning and ending values (IE 0psi and 8psi) and use the "Interpolate Rows" or "Interpolate Columns" in the edit drop-down menu.
You only really need 1 or 2 rows for Vacuum (below 0Psi), so you can choose negative values for 1 or 2 rows, then make a row for 0, one at the end for 8Psi, and interpolate to make a smooth distribution. The RPM row at the top should be smooth, from 500 or so to 7000 or so rpm. Make sure to interpolate!
Now that you've made this change, save your map. Since you're connected in real-time, saving will update the main unit. If you're not sure, click the "update main unit" button at the top menu bar.
So, now that you've got a map, you need values. To be safe, I'd put 100's in the bottom left and bottom right (that would be 8Psi and 7000 rpm and 8Psi and 500 rpm). Now, select everything from 0psi at 500RPM all the way over to 8Psi and 7000rpm. Now, pull down the 'Edit' menu and select 'Interpolate 4 corners'.
Now, you have a boost map that should be workable. Make sure your E-manage is updated, and go for a drive. Your wideband (you DO have one, right?) should show the AFR oscillating around 14-15 at idle and while driving around.
On empty roads, do a few 3rd gear pulls if possible (higher gear = more load, and a slower pull so you have more time to see the AFR changes) while watching the AFRs. It might help to have someone in the car to help you watch things.
Now that you've seen how the AFR's are in boost, you can adjust. I had to pull fuel in high RPMs in boost, and pull a little more from the low rpms.
Make sure you interpolate your changes!
Now you can work with the timing maps. I have a total of 6.5 degrees of advance in boost. You can add more in vaccum to help with fuel economy. I have about 10* in the cruise portion of the timing map.
This is just a baseline guide for tuning. After playing with my map for an hour or two, I've got a map I'm really happy with. I'm running 11.5 Air:fuel in boost, and NO CODES!
Let me know if you guys have any suggestions for this, I'm hoping we can make a full guide for people to tune their own E-Manage. When I was learning, there was a disturbing lack of information on tuning the E-Manage.
Maybe once we've got this perfected, maybe we can get this stickied!
EDITS:
Extra tools, Datalogging:
Map trace:
By clicking the "Logger" drop down menu, and choosing "Map Trace," you can activate one of the E-Manage's Map Tracing feature. Here, the active cell in all active maps will be highlighted, so you (or your tuning assistant) can see what cell you are in when you need to make adjustments. This is really useful, as you know EXACTLY what the problem cell is.
Datalogging:
In the Logger drop-down menu, choose "datalog." This will open a new menu, where you can choose the time interval and channels for datalogging. When you press the START button, the unit will begin logging all selected parameters. This is especially useful when you connect your wideband to the E-Manage. You can log things like RPM, AFR, Injector Duty Cycle, and a whole mess of other parameters and look at the graph later.
Advanced Tactics:
This one was posted by artieman:
little lesson for you guys and gals...if you have a fuel ratio of 10.8:1 and want 12.5:1 whats the percent of adjustment...well the trick for this is have over want....you have 10.8:1 and want 12.5:1....so take 10.8 and divide it by 12.5...gives you 0.864....so take the fuel value in that cell...lets say its a value of 285 in the cell....take 285 and times it by 0.864 and thats your corrected value....can work for any value in the cell doesnt matter if its a value or time in ms
cell value of 285 give you 10.8:1 on a/f for that cell and you want 12.5:1.....take 285x0.864 and youll get 246.24 (just round it 246) and youll be about dead on for 12.5:1
some tuning systems also do it by a correction factor...where a value of 1 means no change...so if you have a value of 1 in that fuel cell and get 10.8:1 a/f ratio put 0.864 (or round it to 0.8) and it should put you at your target of 12.5:1
other systems do it by ms or milliseconds...time based...so if 11ms gives you 10.8 then take 11 and times it by 0.864 which is 9.504 or about 9.5ms to get 12.5:1
have/want ...easy to remember
^^
This is a much better method than guessing/checking like I did the first time around.
Last edited by explosivpotato; 11-09-2008 at 11:01 PM.
#2
11-09-2008, 09:15 PM
the emanage ultimate can do datalogging with map trace...i would suggest setting it up to do so your tune is way more accurate and your not running the risk of killing yourself...for those who live near me im willing to do street tuning at a much cheaper rate then i do dyno tuning for....
Last edited by artieman; 11-09-2008 at 09:17 PM.
#4
11-09-2008, 09:25 PM
well a very crude introduction to making changes in emanage...far from real tuning...a lot of changes for a correct tune come from ignition timing, iat, and ect scale adjustments....and at that power level and boost 11.5:1 a/f ratio is way rich....cars making 700whp+ i tune that rich due to the insane amount of heat being created....in these littles motors your just wasting fuel, slowly fouling plugs, and washing the cylinder walls....if any one of you would like to learn basic's of tuning im willing to help...the more advanced theories i would have to show you on a dyno to help understand them....something i paid 1,000's of dallors to learn but feel knowledge should be spread and free
#5
11-09-2008, 09:34 PM
i think the word car tuner is thrown around way too much but i consider anyone who changes configurations on how the car breaths or drinks is a tuner. simply bolting parts on or fabricating parts is not a tuner.
thats just my 2 cents though. i take it your profession is tuning?
thats just my 2 cents though. i take it your profession is tuning?
#6
11-09-2008, 09:36 PM
i think the word car tuner is thrown around way too much but i consider anyone who changes configurations on how the car breaths or drinks is a tuner. simply bolting parts on or fabricating parts is not a tuner.
thats just my 2 cents though. i take it your profession is tuning?
thats just my 2 cents though. i take it your profession is tuning?
also having a kid on the way and needing a stable job helped push some of my decisions along...
Last edited by artieman; 11-09-2008 at 09:38 PM.
#8
11-09-2008, 09:40 PM
#9
11-09-2008, 09:42 PM
im not a government worker and i dont half-ass anything. ha ha ha. i will hit you up when i get the kit. there is a certified t1r tuner around where i am so i think he will do my tune but i will send you the info and you can doube check his work. ha ha
#10
11-09-2008, 09:46 PM
works for me....
little lesson for you guys and gals...if you have a fuel ratio of 10.8:1 and want 12.5:1 whats the percent of adjustment...well the trick for this is have over want....you have 10.8:1 and want 12.5:1....so take 10.8 and divide it by 12.5...gives you 0.864....so take the fuel value in that cell...lets say its a value of 285 in the cell....take 285 and times it by 0.864 and thats your corrected value....can work for any value in the cell doesnt matter if its a value or time in ms
cell value of 285 give you 10.8:1 on a/f for that cell and you want 12.5:1.....take 285x0.864 and youll get 246.24 (just round it 246) and youll be about dead on for 12.5:1
some tuning systems also do it by a correction factor...where a value of 1 means no change...so if you have a value of 1 in that fuel cell and get 10.8:1 a/f ratio put 0.864 (or round it to 0.8) and it should put you at your target of 12.5:1
other systems do it by ms or milliseconds...time based...so if 11ms gives you 10.8 then take 11 and times it by 0.864 which is 9.504 or about 9.5ms to get 12.5:1
have/want ...easy to remember
hopefully that wasnt to confusing....
little lesson for you guys and gals...if you have a fuel ratio of 10.8:1 and want 12.5:1 whats the percent of adjustment...well the trick for this is have over want....you have 10.8:1 and want 12.5:1....so take 10.8 and divide it by 12.5...gives you 0.864....so take the fuel value in that cell...lets say its a value of 285 in the cell....take 285 and times it by 0.864 and thats your corrected value....can work for any value in the cell doesnt matter if its a value or time in ms
cell value of 285 give you 10.8:1 on a/f for that cell and you want 12.5:1.....take 285x0.864 and youll get 246.24 (just round it 246) and youll be about dead on for 12.5:1
some tuning systems also do it by a correction factor...where a value of 1 means no change...so if you have a value of 1 in that fuel cell and get 10.8:1 a/f ratio put 0.864 (or round it to 0.8) and it should put you at your target of 12.5:1
other systems do it by ms or milliseconds...time based...so if 11ms gives you 10.8 then take 11 and times it by 0.864 which is 9.504 or about 9.5ms to get 12.5:1
have/want ...easy to remember
hopefully that wasnt to confusing....
Last edited by artieman; 11-09-2008 at 10:14 PM.
#11
11-09-2008, 10:54 PM
the emanage ultimate can do datalogging with map trace...i would suggest setting it up to do so your tune is way more accurate and your not running the risk of killing yourself...for those who live near me im willing to do street tuning at a much cheaper rate then i do dyno tuning for....
Of course, a professional tune is a great idea, but if you can't find someone to do one for you I hope this guide can help people come up with one on their own!
#12
11-09-2008, 10:58 PM
well a very crude introduction to making changes in emanage...far from real tuning...a lot of changes for a correct tune come from ignition timing, iat, and ect scale adjustments....and at that power level and boost 11.5:1 a/f ratio is way rich....cars making 700whp+ i tune that rich due to the insane amount of heat being created....in these littles motors your just wasting fuel, slowly fouling plugs, and washing the cylinder walls....if any one of you would like to learn basic's of tuning im willing to help...the more advanced theories i would have to show you on a dyno to help understand them....something i paid 1,000's of dallors to learn but feel knowledge should be spread and free
Yes, it is crude. I'll be the first to admit it's not a complete guide. I chose 11.5 because it seemed like a number a lot of the people on different forums were running. What AFR do you think is better? 12.0? 12.5? 12.5 is about as high as I'd feel comfortable with.
I hope its with the help of people like you that we can make this guide better. It's no substitute for a real education and years of experience tuning, but it's WAY more than I had when I started tuning my fit.
#13
11-09-2008, 11:04 PM
Yes, it is crude. I'll be the first to admit it's not a complete guide. I chose 11.5 because it seemed like a number a lot of the people on different forums were running. What AFR do you think is better? 12.0? 12.5? 12.5 is about as high as I'd feel comfortable with.
I hope its with the help of people like you that we can make this guide better. It's no substitute for a real education and years of experience tuning, but it's WAY more than I had when I started tuning my fit.
I hope its with the help of people like you that we can make this guide better. It's no substitute for a real education and years of experience tuning, but it's WAY more than I had when I started tuning my fit.
#14
11-09-2008, 11:09 PM
something else i would like to add....be careful with timing changes...if you dont know what your doing leave timing alone....to much timing and you can completely destroy a motor...to little and fuel is still burning when the exhaust valve opens causing other types of damage....timing does have a "window" or range it will work properly in but it is a rather small range...a dyno and egt gauge are needed for proper timing adjustment...
#15
11-09-2008, 11:16 PM
OK, I've adjusted my map to get ~12.5-13:1. Thanks for that heads up! I used your technique of have/want, sure takes a lot of guessing out of it!
I agree on the timing adjustments. I noticed that the original tune advanced my timing (seen on ScanGauge), and figured out how much total timing advance I was running with the basemap. I then set up my current map to run the same amount total advance. I don't have any detonation that I can detect, but I would like to take it to a dyno at some point to get my timing better dialed in. Until then I'm happy with it.
I agree on the timing adjustments. I noticed that the original tune advanced my timing (seen on ScanGauge), and figured out how much total timing advance I was running with the basemap. I then set up my current map to run the same amount total advance. I don't have any detonation that I can detect, but I would like to take it to a dyno at some point to get my timing better dialed in. Until then I'm happy with it.
Last edited by explosivpotato; 11-09-2008 at 11:19 PM.
#16
11-09-2008, 11:29 PM
OK, I've adjusted my map to get ~12.5-13:1. Thanks for that heads up! I used your technique of have/want, sure takes a lot of guessing out of it!
I agree on the timing adjustments. I noticed that the original tune advanced my timing (seen on ScanGauge), and figured out how much total timing advance I was running with the basemap. I then set up my current map to run the same amount total advance. I don't have any detonation that I can detect, but I would like to take it to a dyno at some point to get my timing better dialed in, but until then I'm happy with it.
I agree on the timing adjustments. I noticed that the original tune advanced my timing (seen on ScanGauge), and figured out how much total timing advance I was running with the basemap. I then set up my current map to run the same amount total advance. I don't have any detonation that I can detect, but I would like to take it to a dyno at some point to get my timing better dialed in, but until then I'm happy with it.
here is an example
this was a newer civic si with k series and greddy turbo kit i tuned....car made 238whp at 5.5psi
Last edited by artieman; 11-09-2008 at 11:34 PM.
#17
11-09-2008, 11:35 PM
Hmm good points! I'll change that. It's very possible that my bad timing adjustments were "covered up" by the knock sensor retarding. Does this hold even when switching from regular to premium fuel? As in you can run advanced from the stock map in boost, because you're running premium and low boost? Or is it a rule for boost in general?
I'm coming up with a better tune with all of this... I'll upload it before work!
Thanks a LOT for your input!
EDIT:
I adjusted my ignition map to hit 2* retard (from stock) at 8psi, and interpolated into the start of vacuum. Just under 0psi, I think it's about 8 degrees advanced (from stock), and its ~5-7 otherwise (these are the values I was getting with the basemap), increasing as manifold pressure and RPM increase. So, timing increases from idle to 0 vacuum, then decreases in to boost. Sound right?
Thanks again for this info, +rep for you!
Last edited by explosivpotato; 11-09-2008 at 11:43 PM.
#18
11-09-2008, 11:40 PM
with better fuel you can run more timing to build more pressure before the piston really starts moving on its way down...the piston does dwell at the top for quite a few degrees before it starts to travel down...just remember the fit runs 10.5:1 compression ratio which is rather high for a boosted application....but im used to tuning on only 91 octane in california since its all we have....in other states with higher octane premium gas you can get away with a couple more degrees of timing...also you cant hear when the motor pings at higher rpm due to engine noise...you can hear detonation though...
#20
11-09-2008, 11:52 PM
oh your lucky....my 2k civic si has 13.8:1 compression ratio and wont run on 91....next closet thing is 100octane and its running me $9.99 a gallon....if i had 94 octane i could daily drive it....one of the many reason i bought the fit for my daily driver...12.0:1 is about as high as you can go on 91 octane on all motor setups...and 9.0:1 is what the turbo motors i build run at with the 91 octane with a max of about 22psi....the civic currently makes about 270hp all motor on race gas