Hi DSM,
I think it's a complete reportage of a turbo setup!

Thank you!

 

I was looking for info about oil and found this. http://www.eng.auburn.edu/~jacksr7/SAE2002013355.pdf

This goes with what you were talking about oil Tribology.

 

Initial fabrication has started officially. but I scrapped my first design on the manifold and turbine by-passes. More pictures will be coming. For starters, here are the turbos involved:

On top is the 43mm inlet of the MHI 14B which will be the secondary turbo in this setup, on bottom is the 61mm inlet of the Garrett P-Trim turbo, which will be the primary or atmosphere turbo. On the intake side the big turbo gets fresh air first, and compresses it into the small turbo before it goes into the engine. There will be a medium sized meth nozzle between the big turbo and the little one. Then after the small turbo the air will pass through an intercooler and get sprayed again at the throttle body by a big nozzle.




On the turbine side the 14B has the 6cm2 or ~.41A/R MHI turbine housing, these are not directly comparable to the Garrett A/R ratings. The Open T4 flange turbine on the Garrett is 1.06A/R, this is one of the bigger ones, but it should still respond quickly while being able to flow plenty as the 7-15psi the 14B will be generating will basically provide 3-4L of effective engine displacement to spool the big turbo.

The exhaust side of the system has the small turbo getting the exhaust first and then the wastegate and the turbine from the first turbo feed into the opening of the big turbo.

There will be another waste gate between the little turbo and big turbo that will probably be dumped to atmosphere since there is not a third turbo that needs to be fed the bypass gasses to spool.





Here we have the 56mm turbine discharge of the 14b and the Garrett is 65mm, the downpipe will be 3" V-band. There will have to be a big wastegate off the manifold in front of the small turbo, and at least a 38mm gate between the two turbos.

 

Because of the way compounded boost systems work, I am going to try to keep both turbos operation in the fat parts of their maps. So to start with my initial tuning, I am planning on haveing the small, quick spooling turbo making the first 9psi boost. or operating at a pressure ratio of 1.6. if you look



You can see on that map, that if you follow the line from PR 1.6 from left to right across the rev-range in the upper rpm where from 5000-7000rpm that puts us right in the middle of the compressor map on the 77% efficiency island, which is the highest for this compressor. Because turbos don't know whether or not the air entering it has already been compressed, this is not effected by the big turbo as it starts to build boost. The little turbo will continue to operate at a PR of 1.6, assuming there is proper wastegating.

At a pressure ratio of 1.6, our 1.5L engine is now effectively a 2.4L. The big turbo should be making positive pressure right before the small one is at full boost. So it could well spool even faster than I anticipate.

Now if you look at the map below for the big 61mm turbo, and again follow the 1.6PR line out to the 30-35lb/min vertical flow lines you'll see that we are in the middle of the maximum efficiency island again.




But, even though both turbos are operating at only 1.6PR, at sea-level it would be making 23psi in the manifold. This would ordinarily be way off the map for the small turbo, but because the big turbo is compressing the charge before it enters the little turbo, the pressure ratios multiply.

Atmospheric pressure at sea level with air temps at ~70*F is 14.7psi and is considered to be a pressure ratio of 1.0.

Basically the math looks like this...

Running the small turbo at a PR of 1.6, means the engine is being fed air compressed 1.6 times as dense as the atmosphere we all live in. So the absolute pressure would be:

1.6PR x 1.0PR = 1.6PR x 14.7PSIa = 23.52PSIa

To get boost pressure we do the following:

23.52PSIa - 14.7PSIa = 8.82PSI boost or PSIg for "gauge pressure" which is the amount the air pressure has been "boosted" over atmospheric and what you would see on your boost gauge.

Because pressure ratio's multiply with compressor arranged in series, operating both turbos at a PR of 1.6 gives you:

1.6PR x 1.6PR x 1.0PR = 1.6PR * 1.6PR = 2.56PR

2.56PR * 14.7PSIa = 37.632PSIa

37.632PSIa - 14.7PSIa = 22.932PSIg or ~23psi boost fed into the engine.



Basically this means I can get the spool and torque at the speed the small turbo would normally deliver, while I get the top end pull from the big turbo. The limit of the system is the air the big turbo can swallow, which in this case is good for 580-600whp. Additionally it lets both turbos do less work and the get to stay in their efficiency zones.

Now in the future event I build the internals, a big cam/springs, build the transmission and switch to something like methanol, I can still crank up the PR on both. Both are quite efficient on this motor till about 2.5PR, which on a single turbo system would be about 21PSIg or 21 psi boost.

So then we would have 2.5PR x 2.5PR x 1.0PR = 6.25PR

6.25PR x 14.7PSIa = 91.875PSIa

91.875PSIa - 14.7PSIa = 77.175PSIg or boost. Yes 77% boost, and things are still more or less efficient by the numbers. In reality the torque required to turn the compressures would make things really hot and with the current plans for the exhaust system there would be no feasible way to evacuate that much exhaust gas.

Remember 77psi boost fed into the engine makes for an effective engine displacement of 7.875L (77.125 / 14.7 = 5.25 and 5.25 X 1.5L = 7.875L) Obviously in practice it wouldn't work quite like that, but the numbers can give you a rough understanding of what's going on.

In the extreme scenario, with an accompanying extreme budget, a 1.5L engine, with a 9.5-10k rpm redline, with adequate exhaust system, proper fuel and cool air at those pressures could be approaching 1000whp.

Think that's far fetched? The 1.5L Honda and BMW engines of the 1987 Formula One cars were cranking out an estimated 1400-1500whp @ 85psi boost on toluene fuel and a slightly higher redline. Just food for thought. (I would have likely gone to a bigger set of turbines for pressures that high due to excessive backpressure, but that is for a later discussion)

Next to that, my goals are a paltry 300wtq. I'd like to make that early, say 4500rpm and hold it across the rev range. After everything is operational with a basetune, I am upgrading the conrods (K1), pistons (Mahle), all bearings (ACL Tri-metal) and connecting hardware (ARP).

300wtq @ 4500rpm = 257.05whp
300wtq @ 7000rpm = 399.85whp
300wtq @ 9000rpm = 514.09whp

Because of the incredibly small ports on our cylinder heads, and that any cam we get will not be especially big.. we have only one option to make any significant power. We have to increase the density of the air, because we don't have the ability to flow a large volume at lower density. The only way to hit the boost pressures needed on an efficient compressor while still having torque around town and not suffer hours of turbo lag waiting on a giant turbo is to use a small guy too. Matching them is the tough part, and I don't think these two are ideal mates, they are damn close as far as I can figure out.

Stay tuned!

;D

 

Just cut a hole in the firewall and remove the passenger seat and mount the turbos there, then dump it out the window. I can't wait to see the insane fabrication to make this fit.

 

Crazy. In for more progress.

 

in for the finished product!

 

So after re-doing some of my intial design and calculation, it looks like the wastegates I had on hand were just not able to bypass the amount of exhaust the system would be producing in an efficient manner.

My high pressure wastegate will be bigger than most other turbo Fit's exhaust:
TiAL V60 60mm Wastegate - Full-Race.com

Unfortunately, that gate alone will cost more than most Fit's full exhaust by itself.

What's worse is I need a second gate between the two turbos, which also comes with a relatively steep price tag:
TiAL MV-R 44mm Wastegate - Full-Race.com

For those too lazy to click the links, or just bad at math... that is $900 in wastegates. I have a few on hand, but none bigger than 40mm.

So I have been delayed a bit by this change of plans. The only reason this is even necessary is because of the fact that I want to start on low boost, and that requires more wastegate. I don't intend to build the engine until it blows or I finish the race car, so in the mean time I need to make less than 20psi total boost.

But DSM, that's easy! You say.

Well, on a single turbo, sure. But with a compound turbo setup running 9psi (1.6PR) on the small turbo, and operating the big turbo at what would normally be 9psi (1.6PR) doesn't make 18psi. It actually makes 23psi.

7psi (1.5PR) on the small guy and "7psi" (1.5PR) make 18.5psi.

Well I want the ability to run as little as 4 psi (1.3PR) on one turbo and completely by-pass the big turbo at first.

Then once the base tune is in on the small guy I want to be able to run a combined 10psi in the manifold to get started on tuning with both turbos singing along.

This requires the ability to evacuate large volumes of exhaust before they can perform work on the turbines. This is where the obnoxiously large wastegates come in. I may be able to get away with some smaller units, like two 44mm gates, or a 44 and a 38.

But I have more work to do before I figure that out, I'd rather have too much gate than too little.

 

Wow Haven't update this thread in a long time! But...

Good news!

While I am still hurting on money for the wastegates because I have 4 projects going on simultaneously... Carlos @ ARP is working on getting some cylinder head bolts, main bearing bolts and rod bolts for the GD3 Fits!

Apparently the rod bolts are the same P/N for both GE8 and GD3 (13208-PWA-003) So there is that too!

Additionally it turns out a big name in fabricating for several Drag/AutoX circles now works for Wiseco/K1!

Ron @ Wiseco is helping me source some custom Wiseco pistons and having them setup for a MUCH beefier 19mm wrist pin made out of H11/L19 style tool steel. F*ck yes!

Also, sorry for the delays to everyone PMing me.. between work, school and a sick family member, I have been falling behind in my correspondence.

And donations to my Fit Fund are always welcome! ;D

 

I liked to use Wiseco pistons to replace the stock ones on motorcycles.. Because they were forged more clearance was needed in the cylinders so a lot of times just a cross hatch honing was all that was needed for them to fit the jugs.... They would slap at idle when cold unless you used high viscocity oil....

 

Here is a web site about older Honda's but the tech is relevant http://ftlracing.com/tech/engine/index.html. This is why Honda motors are so popular.

 

That sounds about right.. PTW in the .30-.40 ten-thousandth's range?

These are going to be a little loose because of how hot I anticipate things to be with the cylinder pressure I will eventually be throwing at the motor. Especially on pump gas. Probably looking at a 5w40 oil.

I'm building the block in anticipation of 40+ psi once all the bugs are worked out. I secretly expect to have an issue with the stock sleeves before than though. No data on that though, so maybe we'll get lucky.

 

So more good news! K1 connecting rods with ARP2000 rod bolts will only cost $375 for the entire freaking SET!

Preliminary estimates on the custom pistons and customs wrist pins is set to be less than $600!

Incredible. If anyone needs some pistons or rods for their Fit, please contact Ron SheareE at Wiseco!

 

I found the perfect fuel for you to test with. Its Shell URT unleaded race fuel. It has the same fuel air as C16 and produce more Hp. Shell Unleaded Race Fuel Challenge: Leaded vs. Unleaded. Lamotta Performance - YouTube

 

Looks like some good stuff. I don't really mind the leaded stuff, but it does shorten the life span of the O2 sensors.

But that URT is $12/gal! Even for a 55gal drum it's $9.70/gal before shipping.

I would check it out for a tank or two if I can find a good local dealer. Any thoughts on distributors on the north side?

I think I'm going to be using methanol/pump gas and ethanol primarily.

All the really high boost/big power turbo cars in the last couple years have been on E98 or methanol.

 

E98 is the way to go for a cooler running motor. I just was surprised on how it compared to C16. I think by the summer there will be a few more distributors around here because the test results just came out and I will talk to the speed shop my son goes to and see if he will be carrying it. They tune and race a lot of turbos so it might be a good idea to use it.

 

Well apparently enough people liked this deal that as of yesterday K1's L15A1 rods are now out of stock through the first week of March!

We better be seeing a bunch of built block Fits showing up soon!

 

The idea of doing up a beefed up engine and power train is appealing to me... I really need to cool it on stuff for awhile since things are becoming more difficult for me to do and I am afraid that it may not be possible to get a safe tune.... Even if it is possible there is always the expense not to mention that I already feel pretty good about how my car runs... Now if I was younger I would already be studying and making list of what and how much money I would need to shovel into it to go insanely fast... I haven't done that in 20 years, but I was getting parts for cost then and a Harley is a piece of cake to tear down and reassemble.

 

Beefing up is hard to do because of lack of support. In Honda good ole days you could just match a different trans form a Acura because the blocks are similar. Same with the heads and was easily tuned. Its not like that any more which is sad in a way.

 

Though you guys might get a kick out of this:


For a bit of comparison here is the Mitsu 14B that will be the secondary turbo on the Fit vs. the Holset HX52 which is the big single on the race car.