Who here has seen some good gains with all motor mods?

I was planning on getting a WR IM and curious if anyone ran one all motor.

So far it's just a AFE stage 2 intake, MR header and DP, IK20 plugs, and Hondata.

Is the IM worth the buy for all motor now or will I suffer a loss in power from to much intake velocity on a small, little HP application? SC lit will be later this year.

Thanks!

 

I guess you are sporting a 1st gen?

 

Yes sir GD3. Most people see gains on FI. I was curious on the gains (I know they are small) for all motor.

 

With a Hondata probably 20-30 hp

 

With I/H/E, IK22, 91 octane and FlashPro (no manifold, have two different ones I cant use in my racing class) I went from 89/76 whp/tq to 112/104

 

Im very interested in doing head work since no one seems to be doing anything aside from the old skunk2 demo car that was boosted.

One thing that stuck out to me is doing a polyquad valve job since the first gen l15 only uses one valve before vtec brings in the second one.

another idea is using a colt triflow cam which would help produce torque in the low and mid range thus helping the small bore/ long stroke engine breathe better and become more efficient.

Anyone have any thoughts to this?

 

I gotta admit, I had to look up BOTH PolyQuad and the Colt Tri Flow!

Found a BA SUPER indepth tech article that provides all info and even dyno data as to the PolyQuad concept and even discusses varying/phasing the intake cam/valve timing to induce swirl as is the theory of the Colt Tri Flow cam! Not a short read but GOOD STUFF:
Polyquad Article - MotorTech Magazine

Aftrer reading, and with my small background knowledge of old carburetors and two strokes, this makes A LOT of sense!!! What it comes down to though is $$$$. I have wanted to build a full on NA L15 pretty much since day 1. I actually have acquired a L15A7 head from a GE and was going to look into seeing how much machine work would be required to move the true three rocker system over to my GD head... With the FlashPro, activation shouldn't be an issue. But I digress.

REAL flow bench tested/proven head work is ALWAYS $$$$, so the quotes of $600-700 per cyl and then another $200 per cyl for custom valves for the PolyQuad work altgough a little on the high side, does not seem un reasonable when a job by 4Piston or Port Flow easily starts to push north of $2K when actual valves are added in.

When $3K for an off the shelf FI kit was too much... I see VERY few people willing to go down this road. Shoot, if I'm going to blow $3.4K it's going to be on non remote double adjustable custom suspension from Motion Control Suspension!!!

Still, if I keep progressing through SCCA classing, I MIGHT be running the SHG_Mike upper intake manifold and E85 by the end of 2015

 

To get the head setup through David vizard is that expensive. However if I did the work myself then I could build two separate heads and just port the leading valve a little more to open flow in the lower end. I believe this would help with all the power band.

I am having difficulty seeing how the triflow cam would help since there are not two different lobes for the intake l15a1 cam, just a sliding pin that helps open up the second intake valve.

Guess Im going to have to look further into this. Perhaps talk to Delta cam, since they are local to me, and get a 272 regrind to help improve flow.

 

Polyquad setups are almost entirely motor-dependent. What I mean is it is not a universal application.


It didnt really help on any of the old Honda motors (Ds, Bs, Fs, and Hs)


The motors this method can apply to are probably closer to setups in which the intake pathway is severely restricted, thus requires that initial velocity boost that offset valve sizing tends to offer.


Honda has always been great about doing these small tricks for fuel economy. Honda actually used to have a triple vtec setup, where at low rpms, only one intake and one exhaust valve was opened, then it was either both intake or both exhaust valves open, then finally all 4 were opened at higher rpms.

This added more moving parts to the valvetrain, and I believe honda used this design to see where they would take the K series motors and the Honda S2000's F20 and F22 motors. They eventually decided having the cam phasing of up to 50 degrees would help best.



There is a similar tech that Ferrari uses, the cams are actually cut cone style, so as you rev the engine, the cam moves back and forth, causing the cam angle and profile to get bigger or smaller for a much larger powerband. I do NOT know which engine this was used in, I remember this being brought up in Topgear.

 

There isn't enough R&D to show whether a polyquad setup would help or hurt on the older honda engines. I was hoping to find someone doing it in the drag racing world since running boost really shows the improved swirl.

Comparing the L series head to a 4g63 head as far as port design goes would show that there is the possibility that this setup would help add more midrange flow to the l15a1.

Ideally running a staggered cam with an offset intake valve arrangement would give you the airflow benefits of a 2 valve head down low until vtec was engaged.

I'm just having a difficult time finding serious numbers on flow with these setups.

13fit; I did see a ton of posts from pay primer on dso talking about the theory but no one has any solid flow, air speed, or swirl numbers to back up the head setup.

 

Pat Primer (RIP) was an extremely knowledgeable individual and I believe if he didnt himself mention it more indepth, he decided it wasnt worthwhile for those particular engine designs.

Like I said, I think the design would significantly improve some engine's performance, while others it may only be a slight one.


For me personally, I will take a hit in low and midrange rpms for peak high rpm power.

Besides, if you look at all the great allmotor builds that people have done with Hondas across the years, you find they still get pretty good gas mileage.

The K26 all motor cherynobil? build makes I believe 352whp and still was mentioned on their forums about getting the equivalent of 35mpgs (US gallons) cruising on the highways. This setup was in an 8th gen civic body last time I checked. Id guess that is around 2900 pound chassis

 

I was more thinking that the bigger port would help keep along the same lines of having a wife powerband specifically for the L series since it's a small bore long stroke.

Pat was extremely knowledgeable but never had the chance to put his theories into his own project. If you look at his crx thread he mentions exploring the polyquad setup but didn't get the chance which is unfortunate.

 

I'm alllllll for a wide power band over peak #'s, but that's cuz I'm between 2.5-6K RPM for the majority of AutoX and I still street drive my car

 

I thought about headwork on the fit myself. In fact it almost happened 2 weeks ago while the car was in the shop. The problem I see is the money invested in the motor. The shop is guessing we'd see at least 10-15 whp gains and a better power band. That's on the low side too. But where does it stop?

I've been down this road many times. He'll I spent 10 of thousands of dollars on my d series many years ago to drag. A 10 sec 1/4 street class SOHC was fun and one of the fastest in its day. But it's all money. And that's why I decided not to work the head. Cause then I would want to do the block and so on. Is that worth it or then go K for that price.

My goal is to maximize to cars potential this year in STF class as I'm still a rookie. Then next year see the improvement and go from there. We are redoing my current setup now. It will be nice to see how much more we get from this.

TPColgett what I/H/E are you running?

 

Roller after much experimentation I'm running:

AEM CAI ("Deleted" fogs so semi "ram air")
Weapon R Race Header (had it ceramic coated)
Megan 2.25" B Pipe (with custom Fab'd high flow cat per STF Rules)
Ending in H-Fit Type M axle back (primarily for weight savings and 2.25" consistency)

 

Biggest thing he should do with that extra motor is have the valve area de-shrouded, and POLISH the exhaust up. no need to do major porting, many people think bigger is better. LIES. VELOCITY is better. straight out flow is for boosted applications, specifically turbo.


outside the motor, a new intake manifold will be the best bet.

 

I'm not going for bigger ports. Just improving air velocity, swirl, and offset valve to improve low end air movement. The exhaust side won't be high on my focus since polishing it doesn't improve high exit speeds but blending it is definitely on the agenda

 

Subscribing to this post!

 

We'll be running similar set ups soon.

I'm waiting for my WR race header to come in. We are doing a high flow cat, MR midpipe, and my ebay muffler. Hoping to see some better power results. The dyno will tell all next week.

 

After reading that d15 build I definitely want to try a hydrofoil shape crank and focus on keeping a tight quench area. The L15 head should respond nicely to deshrouding due to the spacing of the valves.

All this new experimentation is seriously making me want to stick to an NA build to see what type of efficiency levels I can get it to.