L15A running TD05H 14b + Water/Meth?
#341
04-17-2011, 10:57 PM
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Chicago, Illinois
Posts: 4,424
My only issue with the stock semi-wb output is that like with any performance tuning, most of the stuff that requires careful tweaking is on the rich side of the spectrum, so while a narrow band can give me a rough approximation, depending on temperature the actual AFR reading is swayed by temperature, so I need the accuracy in the rich sub 1.0v region!
This is where the wideband controllers are vital!
Just while tuning N/A though it should suffice just fine! This experiment is less about power and more for an intimate look at what the ECU does under various conditions of it's own accord to give me an idea what fashion I should tune it in that would cause the least electronic conflict.
#342
04-17-2011, 11:07 PM
Hopefully this will be the last week of winter and the temps will stabilize so when your tuning it will be consistent. Are you planning on saving a few tunes for different temps? Or just make adjustments on the fly. I know as long as your a little on the rich side you will be OK.
#343
04-17-2011, 11:30 PM
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Chicago, Illinois
Posts: 4,424
When things are cooperating I make part-throttle cruise adjustments constantly. And since both cars are on speed density, I just have to blend the Coolant and IAT correction tables which should allow me to only need one tune per fuel.
It was nice today, and I wanted to go to Chassis Cert. at the Great Lakes Dragaway but I am still tinkering with things. I have been having issues between the low resolution air metering and trying to dial in fuel delivery since I took it out of hibernation.
I don't know what changed between now and a couple months ago, but its been a real pain in the a$$.
It was nice today, and I wanted to go to Chassis Cert. at the Great Lakes Dragaway but I am still tinkering with things. I have been having issues between the low resolution air metering and trying to dial in fuel delivery since I took it out of hibernation.
I don't know what changed between now and a couple months ago, but its been a real pain in the a$$.
#344
04-18-2011, 04:38 AM
NA FIC tuning
Thank you DSM,
compression is 10.8:1, our standard lowest octane fuel is E95, car is (bynow
) NA. But it happens I already played with addictives on diesel and would like to do the same with gasoline (acetone, toluene).
Mail willingly sent and software downloaded
Thanks a lot,
Stefano
compression is 10.8:1, our standard lowest octane fuel is E95, car is (bynow
) NA. But it happens I already played with addictives on diesel and would like to do the same with gasoline (acetone, toluene).Mail willingly sent and software downloaded
Thanks a lot,
Stefano
That will depend on fuel and compression.. you are on an 1.2L i-DSI?
If you want to give me your email, I can send you my Load v. RPM fuel and timing tables in the race car. So you can use that as a template. Only the the 1.0 and lower load section (y-axis) applies to you unless you are boosted. In which case it goes out to 2.4Bar, even though I boost beyond that it just uses those as the finals values so they are pretty conservative once you get up there.
I have a couple tunes saved, I will send you the less aggressive tables.
It will require you downloading ECMTuning freeware to view the DA tables. They are .eda which nothing else will open, just like .cal AEM files.
If you want to give me your email, I can send you my Load v. RPM fuel and timing tables in the race car. So you can use that as a template. Only the the 1.0 and lower load section (y-axis) applies to you unless you are boosted. In which case it goes out to 2.4Bar, even though I boost beyond that it just uses those as the finals values so they are pretty conservative once you get up there.
I have a couple tunes saved, I will send you the less aggressive tables.
It will require you downloading ECMTuning freeware to view the DA tables. They are .eda which nothing else will open, just like .cal AEM files.
#345
04-18-2011, 02:20 PM
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Chicago, Illinois
Posts: 4,424
You have 95% anhydrous ethanol at the pump? I was under the impression you only had 95RON Gas or "Gasohol" blends?
E98 is a common race fuel in the US and if E95 is all you intend to use you can actually run as lean as Lambda 0.89 or on your wideband you would be shooting for 12.5:1AFR on gas scale AFRs (which is really 8.7:1AFR on E85)
Ethanol is going to be more knock resistant by MBT timing is still going to be comparable to gasoline.
So when you are looking at my fuel/timing tables compare them to the values you see in the FIC.
I am running comparatively rich, even under low load but that is for simplicity in tuning and to cool/quench the combustion chamber as I will do several miles at WOT, and the rich mixtures with less timing let the charge continue to burn out through the exhaust and help spool the turbo sooner.
Since you are N/A you can lean out areas of my tables, and potentially add timing. I would let your knock sensor be your guide and err on the side of caution.
I don't know about your 1.2l L-series but our 10.4:1CR L15A1's have 50* spark advance at their disposal, and you'll notice that the most I use even on high octane fuels at low load/high rpm (0.3-0.7Bar absolute, so still in vacuum) is about 38* advance where the AFR's are between 13.0:1 and 11.8:1.
13.0/14.64 = 0.89 Lambda
11.8/14.64 = 0.80 Lambda
So on your wideband shoot for Lambda 1.0 or 0.98 at cruise and idle, then start around lambda 0.80 under high load/high rpm and play with timing and lambda till you find a happy balance.
Stick to the sort of timing you would use on a 10.8:1CR gasoline engine
E98 is a common race fuel in the US and if E95 is all you intend to use you can actually run as lean as Lambda 0.89 or on your wideband you would be shooting for 12.5:1AFR on gas scale AFRs (which is really 8.7:1AFR on E85)
Ethanol is going to be more knock resistant by MBT timing is still going to be comparable to gasoline.
So when you are looking at my fuel/timing tables compare them to the values you see in the FIC.
I am running comparatively rich, even under low load but that is for simplicity in tuning and to cool/quench the combustion chamber as I will do several miles at WOT, and the rich mixtures with less timing let the charge continue to burn out through the exhaust and help spool the turbo sooner.
Since you are N/A you can lean out areas of my tables, and potentially add timing. I would let your knock sensor be your guide and err on the side of caution.
I don't know about your 1.2l L-series but our 10.4:1CR L15A1's have 50* spark advance at their disposal, and you'll notice that the most I use even on high octane fuels at low load/high rpm (0.3-0.7Bar absolute, so still in vacuum) is about 38* advance where the AFR's are between 13.0:1 and 11.8:1.
13.0/14.64 = 0.89 Lambda
11.8/14.64 = 0.80 Lambda
So on your wideband shoot for Lambda 1.0 or 0.98 at cruise and idle, then start around lambda 0.80 under high load/high rpm and play with timing and lambda till you find a happy balance.
Stick to the sort of timing you would use on a 10.8:1CR gasoline engine
Last edited by DiamondStarMonsters; 04-18-2011 at 02:22 PM.
#346
04-18-2011, 04:38 PM
. We have 95RON, called Eurosuper or whatever. Sometimes I fill up with 100RON, when available (Shell V-plus).Any idea on how to add timing, given that FIC can only reduce it? I thought of alter with a fixed resistor and with FIC I might be able to reduce this extra timing.
As soon as I get the FIC I'll surely add more questions...
Ciao,
#347
04-18-2011, 05:24 PM
![Lyon[Nightroad]'s Avatar](https://www.fitfreak.net/forums/customavatars/avatar31469_2.gif){kind=avatar}
My fault, you're right . We have 95RON, called Eurosuper or whatever. Sometimes I fill up with 100RON, when available (Shell V-plus).
Any idea on how to add timing, given that FIC can only reduce it? I thought of alter with a fixed resistor and with FIC I might be able to reduce this extra timing.
As soon as I get the FIC I'll surely add more questions...
Ciao,
. We have 95RON, called Eurosuper or whatever. Sometimes I fill up with 100RON, when available (Shell V-plus).Any idea on how to add timing, given that FIC can only reduce it? I thought of alter with a fixed resistor and with FIC I might be able to reduce this extra timing.
As soon as I get the FIC I'll surely add more questions...
Ciao,
Do you have an obdii scanner hooked up to observe your base timing that the ecu is giving you currently? Even if the fic could add timing, you would see the stock ecu just pull more base timing to stay out of knock.
In retrospect this info applies to the l15a7/8
Last edited by Lyon[Nightroad]; 04-18-2011 at 05:28 PM.
#348
04-19-2011, 12:40 AM
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Chicago, Illinois
Posts: 4,424
You can advance it by making it not knock. The stock ecu is programmed very simply to advance (up to 25 dbtdc) until it knocks. I haven't discovered a way in the last 4 months to force advanced timing other than with 100+ octane fuel. even then under boost I couldn't get past 22 dbtdc.
Do you have an obdii scanner hooked up to observe your base timing that the ecu is giving you currently? Even if the fic could add timing, you would see the stock ecu just pull more base timing to stay out of knock.
In retrospect this info applies to the l15a7/8
Do you have an obdii scanner hooked up to observe your base timing that the ecu is giving you currently? Even if the fic could add timing, you would see the stock ecu just pull more base timing to stay out of knock.
In retrospect this info applies to the l15a7/8
Any chance you recall what AFR and boost that was at?
I know you said 100+ oct, bu what Fuel? Air temps?
That is like ideal!
#349
04-19-2011, 04:34 AM
You can advance it by making it not knock. The stock ecu is programmed very simply to advance (up to 25 dbtdc) until it knocks. I haven't discovered a way in the last 4 months to force advanced timing other than with 100+ octane fuel. even then under boost I couldn't get past 22 dbtdc.
Do you have an obdii scanner hooked up to observe your base timing that the ecu is giving you currently? Even if the fic could add timing, you would see the stock ecu just pull more base timing to stay out of knock.
In retrospect this info applies to the l15a7/8
In retrospect this info applies to the l15a7/8
Thanks for feedback,
#350
04-19-2011, 10:46 PM
I've read this one:Browser Warning
Yes, I have the Scangauge and stared at how much timing the ECU added during a cold start (-21, -19, -17, ...... till around 0 at idle when warm).
Thanks for feedback,
Yes, I have the Scangauge and stared at how much timing the ECU added during a cold start (-21, -19, -17, ...... till around 0 at idle when warm).
Thanks for feedback,
#351
04-20-2011, 05:12 AM
Hi Silver,
I can't follow you, AFAIK (and Octane rating - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia seems to confirm it) euro fuel is 95 RON.
Anyway, thanks for the interesting link on timing!
Stefano
I can't follow you, AFAIK (and Octane rating - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia seems to confirm it) euro fuel is 95 RON.
Anyway, thanks for the interesting link on timing!
Stefano
Good article about octane and timing but according to Hondata the 95 octane is R/M and not ron octane. Knock control tables
#352
04-20-2011, 09:16 PM
Hi Silver,
I can't follow you, AFAIK (and Octane rating - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia seems to confirm it) euro fuel is 95 RON.
Anyway, thanks for the interesting link on timing!
Stefano
I can't follow you, AFAIK (and Octane rating - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia seems to confirm it) euro fuel is 95 RON.
Anyway, thanks for the interesting link on timing!
Stefano
#353
04-21-2011, 04:10 AM
Ok, I think I got it. Here aviation fuel isn't common at all, so it wasn't an option.
Anyway I learned that my 95RON is equivalent to your 91premium and hope to better understand the tables you linked.
Is there any chance to read knock values through OBD2?
Thanks for clarifying!
Anyway I learned that my 95RON is equivalent to your 91premium and hope to better understand the tables you linked.
Is there any chance to read knock values through OBD2?
Thanks for clarifying!
#354
04-21-2011, 05:17 PM
Interesting reading 
!
Thank you
!Thank you
I was going through my library and found this Compressor Maps. With the links it explains a turbo and tuning.
#355
05-17-2011, 04:48 AM
One of the big issues with the GT25 turbo's is the design of the turbine side.
Two major flaws exist:
1.) Wastegate hole is too small, even on our tiny 1.5L engines the amount of exhaust gas that needs to by-pass is significant, and to do so efficiently the hole needs to be bored. The turbo isn't very efficient at boost levels over 15-16psi so I don't understand why a company like Honeywell-Garrett would over look that.
2.) The wastegate and turbine discharge are not segregated from each other. To make matters worse the 5 bolt downpipe has the turbine discharge centered in front of the exhaust opening making the least path of resistance through the turbine, and there is a ledge between the wastegate and the turbine which creates considerable turbulence for the gasses exiting the wastegate.
These two flaws, and they are significant, encourage boost creep and high backpressure. This in turn means less power can be made per psi, because more energy is wasted trying to evacuate the exhaust through the bottleneck, this also hurts spool which directly effects torque production. It also makes the turbo less pump gas-friendly.
Some pictures to illustrate this:
GT25 wastegate hole:
GT25 downpipe:
14B wastegate hole:
14B downpipe:
The 14B discharge seperates the discharge from the turbine and the wastegate allowing them to join later in the exhaust and gives chance for the flow to smooth out. This decreases backpressure, allowing more exhaust gas flow through the same size pipe. This makes the turbo more efficient on pump gas, makes for better boost control (far less likely to creep) and allows it to spool faster.
One way to enhance this even further is the wastegate dump. This basically lets your existing exhaust act like a bigger pipe. This is because all the exhaust gasses that go through the wastegate now get to leave the system and don't clog up the pipe, allowing the turbine to do its just unhindered, which again results in greater efficiency, less back pressure and quicker spool.
I picked up 500rpm and a good deal of torque at the same boost level on my DSM doing this with the 14B. I was also able to run more timing and boost overall after this mod because it allowed the system to breathe so much more freely.
It is loud though, and at night anyone behind me can see a foot and a half of flame scorching the road under me at full boost when the gate opens! The higher your boost though, the less you are bypassing with the wastegate, so it may not be necessary depending on your setup, but it can be a nice tweak even if you don't absolutely need it.
But again, it is very loud as it is basically letting the exhaust out only ~20" after leaving the engine.
Two major flaws exist:
1.) Wastegate hole is too small, even on our tiny 1.5L engines the amount of exhaust gas that needs to by-pass is significant, and to do so efficiently the hole needs to be bored. The turbo isn't very efficient at boost levels over 15-16psi so I don't understand why a company like Honeywell-Garrett would over look that.
2.) The wastegate and turbine discharge are not segregated from each other. To make matters worse the 5 bolt downpipe has the turbine discharge centered in front of the exhaust opening making the least path of resistance through the turbine, and there is a ledge between the wastegate and the turbine which creates considerable turbulence for the gasses exiting the wastegate.
These two flaws, and they are significant, encourage boost creep and high backpressure. This in turn means less power can be made per psi, because more energy is wasted trying to evacuate the exhaust through the bottleneck, this also hurts spool which directly effects torque production. It also makes the turbo less pump gas-friendly.
Some pictures to illustrate this:
GT25 wastegate hole:
GT25 downpipe:
14B wastegate hole:
14B downpipe:
The 14B discharge seperates the discharge from the turbine and the wastegate allowing them to join later in the exhaust and gives chance for the flow to smooth out. This decreases backpressure, allowing more exhaust gas flow through the same size pipe. This makes the turbo more efficient on pump gas, makes for better boost control (far less likely to creep) and allows it to spool faster.
One way to enhance this even further is the wastegate dump. This basically lets your existing exhaust act like a bigger pipe. This is because all the exhaust gasses that go through the wastegate now get to leave the system and don't clog up the pipe, allowing the turbine to do its just unhindered, which again results in greater efficiency, less back pressure and quicker spool.
I picked up 500rpm and a good deal of torque at the same boost level on my DSM doing this with the 14B. I was also able to run more timing and boost overall after this mod because it allowed the system to breathe so much more freely.
It is loud though, and at night anyone behind me can see a foot and a half of flame scorching the road under me at full boost when the gate opens! The higher your boost though, the less you are bypassing with the wastegate, so it may not be necessary depending on your setup, but it can be a nice tweak even if you don't absolutely need it.
But again, it is very loud as it is basically letting the exhaust out only ~20" after leaving the engine.
Lol, how did I not notice this? You bought the exact same disposable t25 I did. That t25 wishes it had a 42mm inducer on the cold side. It's only 38.74. I didn't realize when I first started that the ebay t25 is tiny! Tiny even for a t25. You can tell it is the ebay emusa one due to unique 5 bolt pattern. You even bought the same downpipe flange... Awesome... Had you decided to stick with it I used a metal file to cut out a significant notch into flange to give the wastegate a little more room. I'm glad you're sticking to your guns on the larger turbo. But now I'm at a dillema. Do I save some money and buy your t25 or order the t28. I love destroying these so much, I don't care becuase I know the next one will just get eaten too.
These two flaws, and they are significant, encourage boost creep and high backpressure
Last edited by Lyon[Nightroad]; 05-17-2011 at 05:05 AM.
#356
06-23-2011, 05:28 AM
Now after a couple days using Panson's Race version ETC I am thoroughly impressed!
In town on SP7 it makes for smoother starts because it eliminates the dip or S-curve the stock throttle map calls for and on the highway it makes a big difference in overtaking and merging.
Being able to toggle between Eco1, Normal and SP7 at the push of a button has been pretty nice.
And even though Eco1 by its self is not going to increase mileage and a couple days is too early to tell, the sluggish response it creates has encouraged me to drive slower when using that setting.
Of the 9 Sport settings SP7 has been my favorite. It is far more aggressive than Normal and SP1-6, but not as touchy as SP8 or 9
SP8 or 9 on the street are a blast when already rolling or on the highway for 4th gear passing, but from a standstill even the lightest breeze on the gas pedal has the engine turning 4000rpm+
For a full bore start on some sticky tires at a track or strip this might be a good thing, but on the street without looking like a teenager it just makes a lot of noise and an excessive amount of clutch slip to keep from pulling through first and second gear.
On the highway or in town, bumping up to SP8 or 9 makes for a crazy change in passing acceleration, a lot like having a lightened flywheel.
To really take advantage of this I am using 93 E0 gas and 6 range IK22's. Combined with the sticky rubber and 10.x lb/each 15x7 wheels, the Fit has now become a nuisance for a surprising array of presumably faster cars.
Cannot wait to start playing with the tune via FIC and ultimately start boosting on some Toluene blends!
Boost and being able to manipulate the throttle and VTEC should make for some absurd torque figures across the board!
In town on SP7 it makes for smoother starts because it eliminates the dip or S-curve the stock throttle map calls for and on the highway it makes a big difference in overtaking and merging.
Being able to toggle between Eco1, Normal and SP7 at the push of a button has been pretty nice.
And even though Eco1 by its self is not going to increase mileage and a couple days is too early to tell, the sluggish response it creates has encouraged me to drive slower when using that setting.
Of the 9 Sport settings SP7 has been my favorite. It is far more aggressive than Normal and SP1-6, but not as touchy as SP8 or 9
SP8 or 9 on the street are a blast when already rolling or on the highway for 4th gear passing, but from a standstill even the lightest breeze on the gas pedal has the engine turning 4000rpm+
For a full bore start on some sticky tires at a track or strip this might be a good thing, but on the street without looking like a teenager it just makes a lot of noise and an excessive amount of clutch slip to keep from pulling through first and second gear.
On the highway or in town, bumping up to SP8 or 9 makes for a crazy change in passing acceleration, a lot like having a lightened flywheel.
To really take advantage of this I am using 93 E0 gas and 6 range IK22's. Combined with the sticky rubber and 10.x lb/each 15x7 wheels, the Fit has now become a nuisance for a surprising array of presumably faster cars.
Cannot wait to start playing with the tune via FIC and ultimately start boosting on some Toluene blends!
Boost and being able to manipulate the throttle and VTEC should make for some absurd torque figures across the board!
13.9 seems to be a sweet spot on my engine. Full timing, (24-26 dbtdc) better mpgs, and a perceptable increase in pickup. All the sae papers seem to verify that optimum power is made just north of 0.9 lambda. But I was curious what you've found.
Also where do you get E0 93.
Also, I really want to believe you about the ETC but my FIC is showing 100% throttle from a dead start in all of my logs (or is it... It's hard to read since I can only compare rpm to tps% and I am brake torquing in my logs)
I think I might by an ETC just to see. I could easily resell it for 80% of what I pay if I dont like it.
Last edited by Lyon[Nightroad]; 06-23-2011 at 05:34 AM.
#357
06-23-2011, 07:48 AM
BP ultimate is Ethanol free. I put the ultra gauge on the wife's car and the fuel trims are 0 and mine are usually -3.1 but lately -7 to -10.6 for both so there is a lot of fuel being pulled out. My mpg is really high this tank 44 mpg and that with 75-80 mph highway.
#358
06-23-2011, 02:21 PM
.
Also, I really want to believe you about the ETC but my FIC is showing 100% throttle from a dead start in all of my logs (or is it... It's hard to read since I c
I think I might by an ETC just to see. I could easily resell it for 80% of what I pay if I dont like it.
Also, I really want to believe you about the ETC but my FIC is showing 100% throttle from a dead start in all of my logs (or is it... It's hard to read since I c
I think I might by an ETC just to see. I could easily resell it for 80% of what I pay if I dont like it.
#359
06-23-2011, 09:32 PM
Found this and need to post it but dont know where so its about engine and fuel and this seem to be a good spot. http://cafefoundation.org/v2/pdf_caf.../ignition1.pdf
#360
06-27-2011, 12:29 AM
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Chicago, Illinois
Posts: 4,424
So during my 4 days without power I managed to figure out what was causing my headaches with the Laser..
My lift pump, the one in the tank, had failed or become damaged.. pics to come tomorrow..
So my big primary pump, the one mounted in-line was pulling through a big obstruction and everything tune related was basically FUBAR'd
I threw the stock pump back in tank and I'm back up and boosting.
But now for better streetability I am re-calibrating everything with a MAF sensor from an Evo 8 and the stock injectors!
Meanwhile my big injectors (1000cc/min) are being put on a flow bench for when I drop them back in! I uncorked the exhaust and even at the whiffy 5psi I was running tonight (because of the stock injectors) the car moves out and part throttle behaviour is much improved!
Who around here has a decent camcorder with good sound pickup that wants to go for a ride in the next couple weeks?
Lyon? SB? Goobers? any takers?
My lift pump, the one in the tank, had failed or become damaged.. pics to come tomorrow..
So my big primary pump, the one mounted in-line was pulling through a big obstruction and everything tune related was basically FUBAR'd
I threw the stock pump back in tank and I'm back up and boosting.
But now for better streetability I am re-calibrating everything with a MAF sensor from an Evo 8 and the stock injectors!
Meanwhile my big injectors (1000cc/min) are being put on a flow bench for when I drop them back in! I uncorked the exhaust and even at the whiffy 5psi I was running tonight (because of the stock injectors) the car moves out and part throttle behaviour is much improved!
Who around here has a decent camcorder with good sound pickup that wants to go for a ride in the next couple weeks?
Lyon? SB? Goobers? any takers?
