Autocross 2/10

[HEMI-Fit]

Originally Posted by Skimmer

LOL! Yeah, and I thought mine were never going to come! But hopefully, you guys won't have to wait too long. My dealer had 3 and it was only the 4th that took a couple weeks to arrive. You might try calling around to other dealers in your area to see if they have any in stock. With any luck, Honda will recognize the demand for these and start stocking more.

Update on the bolts... mine came in after only a week or so of backorder status. Maybe these are getting enough demand that they're stocking up in the warehouses if not the dealers.

Skimmer, you're right, those are SUBSTANTIAL bolts! I had to look closely at them to make sure they were the undercut bolts and not the normal ones. Now to get my alignment equipment back from my Dad's shop and get these bolts installed...

HF

[Polish]

Where is everyone ordering the bolts from? How much should they cost? Anyone got the PN?

[HEMI-Fit]

Your local friendly Honda dealer can get them easy. The PN is 90188-SCC-A00, as printed on the little baggies. Even without the PN, you can just have them look up the pinch bolts that attach the spindle to the strut. They have the typical parts breakdown with PN's right there, just ask for the ones that allow for some adjustment, not the stock ones. Cost was about $4/ea for mine. Get 4 for the max amount of adjustment.

HF

[AllenB]

Well THAT was an absolute waste of new tires. I can't see OEM tires holding up to even ONE event. Why didn't you throw on some autox'ers?

[sl0wp0k3]

Originally Posted by AllenB

Well THAT was an absolute waste of new tires. I can't see OEM tires holding up to even ONE event. Why didn't you throw on some autox'ers?

the OE tires are really really bad, so might as well use them up before getting some better tires. and i don't have another set of wheels to put tires on, so i can't get autox tires. and i don't have any money to buy new tires. and it's a lot of fun driving on really crappy tires. if i can still get first in my class, it's all good...

these tires should last me 'til end of summer...

[gimp]

Originally Posted by AllenB

Well THAT was an absolute waste of new tires. I can't see OEM tires holding up to even ONE event. Why didn't you throw on some autox'ers?

They hold up just fine.

Plus, it's better to learn on a noises at the limit, less than grippy tire. R-comps cover a world of sins when it comes to driving.

[sl0wp0k3]

Originally Posted by gimp

They hold up just fine.

Plus, it's better to learn on a noises at the limit, less than grippy tire. R-comps cover a world of sins when it comes to driving.

not really...

the only reason they're not holding up real well right now is cause of the understeer, which pushes the front end all over the place, even with all the car's weight on it. this is why i'm installing crash bolts, so front tires will grip better and reduce tire wear.

also limit is known by steering feel, and feel through your seat. noises can come or not come depending on the tire and situation...many times if you hear the tire squeal, it's way too much sliding (like i was doing last autox), but also sometimes that's because the car is not set up well and it's unavoidable... there are so many things to consider, so you can't really make any generalizations with driving, there are always exceptions

anyhow I CAN"T HEAR MY CAR WHEN I"M AUTOXING...
any tips on making my car louder w/o taking off the exhaust, or getting a new exhaust?

[gimp]

I somewhat misspoke - I should have said noisy tires.

The reason why I think it's such a positive for someone who is starting out is it keeps them from overdriving the car - typical of those who are just starting out.

Sure, all cars do better with more camber, and the tire is more effective with the increased camber, but we are also talking about the factory Dunlops with a sidewall made out of wet spaghetti.

For a learner, being able to recognize when you are at the limit (the limit of the car, setup, or your ability) is pretty key to being able to make changes for fast times.

Sometimes you can't always adjust your setup (especially for stock class cars), so the ability to learn how to drive a car and deal with it's quirks is pretty important.

Think of how many people complain of too much understeer at corner entry. Nine times out of ten they are just entering the corner too fast.

Sure, you could add more camber in the front, or a stiffer rear bar, but you won't be any faster. You've just reduced rear grip and made the car slower overall. Had you just backed off at corner entry, and left the rest of the car alone, you'd probably be faster.

Street tires scream when they are letting go. Letting go is not gripping. Sliding is not fast, that's why drifting at an autocross can be bad. I'd be willing to say that any time you hear your street tires really really screaming, you should back off. That's how you deal with the setup you have.

[sl0wp0k3]

installing my crash bolts tomorrow...we'll see what kind of alignment settings i can achieve...

[fit73]

how much more negative camber is obtainable with 4 pinch bolts instead of 2???? and how much would you use for the track?? I have only 2 bolts up front and max neg camber was 1 degrees

[sl0wp0k3]

i got my crash bolts installed, and got a little more than 1 degree of camber on each side. we'll see what happens at the next autocross...

you should be able to get like 0.3-0.4 degree more adjustment with each bolt.

[sl0wp0k3]

about those camber bolts for people who have autocrossed:

has anybody measured the camber after the event? if so is there any slipping? how high did you torque the crash bolts?

[Skimmer]

I've had my camber bolts in for about two months and ~1,500 miles now and I've run two autocrosses with them. Have not remeasured camber to check but will try to do so. But my eyeball test (and I did my own wheel alignment, so I know what I'm looking at) shows no change at all. And that doesn't surprise me. The crash bolts are very stout, so I'd be surprised if they loosened and moved around. I torqued mine to 80 ft. lbs.

It's true that each bolt is supposed to be good for .40 camber, so two would be .80. I guess those who are getting more than -1 degree camber out of these bolts are starting out with some negative camber in front. That means there's probably quite a range in what we get from showroom floor, both in terms of alignment settings and probably in how the frame is welded together. I wish my car hard started with a little more slop! Just about -1 degree camber on each side was the best I could get with four bolts.

BTW, I found that it's important to simulate the driver's weight in the car when setting camber. You'll find that the camber changes quite a bit when you do this and you might have to go back and readjust your camber.

[mrFroge]

Originally Posted by Skimmer

I guess I'm a bit more optimistic. I think the Fit can be competitive, and win, regional events even against even Minis and Mazdas where the driving skill is more varied. In other words, a well-driven and well-prepped Fit ought to be able to hold its own. But I agree at Nationals it will probably be outgunned by other cars/drivers. It doesn't help at the moment that we don't yet have the aftermarket support that the Mini enjoys. Can you say adjustable shocks and swaybar? Sub-10-pound wheels?

Well, we did place two Fits on the podium at the opening Sacramento Region event. Granted the competition isn't as strong as the San Fransisco Region but it still was fun. As many experienced drivers (Soloist) will tell you.. The cars are usually the better part of the driver/automobile combo in autoX.

I can't wait until the region has it's solo driving school. I know that I can get faster with additional instruction and seat time..

BTY, if you go to a Regional or National event, and win, you can expect a protest coming your way for not having a stock grill on your car. That is just part of the game. live or die by the rules. Of course if you loose.. no one cares.

[0.o slow 1.6]

Just wanna know why you guys are going with the factory camber bolts. Is it because you guys are trying to stay in H-stock or cus its for a good price?
Why not go with the ingalls kit that can give you more adjustment? Just wanna know.

[HEMI-Fit]

It's the H-Stock rules that require ONLY factory-stock parts. The price for the 4 bolts is only a little less than the Ingall's kit, and either setup is less than $25, so it's not a real budget-buster for either one. The rules are the driving force here, though. H-Stock is the easiest place for the Fit to be competitive. You could throw more money at the car in different classes, but the Fit starts to drop off in appeal pretty quickly there.

HF

[mrFroge]

Originally Posted by HEMI-Fit

It's the H-Stock rules that require ONLY factory-stock parts. The price for the 4 bolts is only a little less than the Ingall's kit, and either setup is less than $25, so it's not a real budget-buster for either one. The rules are the driving force here, though. H-Stock is the easiest place for the Fit to be competitive. You could throw more money at the car in different classes, but the Fit starts to drop off in appeal pretty quickly there.

HF

That's easy.. I want to stay in H-Stock. Otherwise, if I wanted my alignment guy would quickly turn down my stock bolts and give us any amount of camber desired.

[Skimmer]

Originally Posted by mrFroge

Well, we did place two Fits on the podium at the opening Sacramento Region event. Granted the competition isn't as strong as the San Fransisco Region but it still was fun. As many experienced drivers (Soloist) will tell you.. The cars are usually the better part of the driver/automobile combo in autoX.

I can't wait until the region has it's solo driving school. I know that I can get faster with additional instruction and seat time..

BTY, if you go to a Regional or National event, and win, you can expect a protest coming your way for not having a stock grill on your car. That is just part of the game. live or die by the rules. Of course if you loose.. no one cares.

I realize that -- the same way I could protest the decorative trim rings on your dash and armrests. Both, I believe, would be frivolous protests as all of the items we're talking about are "decorative" in nature and weigh next to nothing. That's why I think that removing the grille is within the framework of the rules and is not a protest that event officials would even entertain. How could removal of a 6-ounce plastic grille reasonably be viewed as a performance advantage?

[gimp]

Originally Posted by Skimmer

I realize that -- the same way I could protest the decorative trim rings on your dash and armrests. Both, I believe, would be frivolous protests as all of the items we're talking about are "decorative" in nature and weigh next to nothing. That's why I think that removing the grille is within the framework of the rules and is not a protest that event officials would even entertain. How could removal of a 6-ounce plastic grille reasonably be viewed as a performance advantage?

It's an advantage to the car that has a 30lb chrome grill. Or has a restrictive grill with less than optimal cooling under race conditions. Removing the grill is NOT within the framework of the rules. That's cut and dry. You are justifying it, and I'm sure you'll never get a protest