Hello all,

Now that summer is here and temperatures are rising above 90 (in this
part of Maryland), I have been noticing a peculiar problem with my '92
Honda Accord. Especially on a hot day (though I am not sure about this
correlation) after the car's been driven around for a bit, the brake
pedals tend to get soft. Rather, at high speeds braking slows the car
down. . . but the application of a persistent pressure causes the pedal
to keep getting depressed without noticeable braking action. Pumping
the brake resumes braking, and then it goes soft again until one
releases and depresses the brake once more. The brake appears to work
better during the initial braking action, and then gets soft after it
has been depressed for a little while. There is no squealing,
clinking, or any kind of noise or vibration.

After reading these (very helpful) forums, I concluded that this may be
due to water/gas contamination in my brake line, or a leaky master
cylinder. I had the brake fluid flushed yesterday, and the entire
brake system was checked out. There was no apparent leaks anywhere. .
..and the brake fluid levels have always been constant. Today, I still
find the same soft brake pedal problem.

It is hard to get advice from car mechanics on this, because the
problem is moody and sometimes difficult to reproduce. The car starts
out fine in the morning. What do you guys suggest I do to fix this
problem?

Sincerely,

Subhamoy.

 

In article <1118426110.548008.230780@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups .com>,
subhamoy@gmail.com wrote:

> Hello all,
>
> Now that summer is here and temperatures are rising above 90 (in this
> part of Maryland), I have been noticing a peculiar problem with my '92
> Honda Accord. Especially on a hot day (though I am not sure about this
> correlation) after the car's been driven around for a bit, the brake
> pedals tend to get soft. Rather, at high speeds braking slows the car
> down. . . but the application of a persistent pressure causes the pedal
> to keep getting depressed without noticeable braking action. Pumping
> the brake resumes braking, and then it goes soft again until one
> releases and depresses the brake once more. The brake appears to work
> better during the initial braking action, and then gets soft after it
> has been depressed for a little while. There is no squealing,
> clinking, or any kind of noise or vibration.
>
> After reading these (very helpful) forums, I concluded that this may be
> due to water/gas contamination in my brake line, or a leaky master
> cylinder. I had the brake fluid flushed yesterday, and the entire
> brake system was checked out. There was no apparent leaks anywhere. .
> .and the brake fluid levels have always been constant. Today, I still
> find the same soft brake pedal problem.
>
> It is hard to get advice from car mechanics on this, because the
> problem is moody and sometimes difficult to reproduce. The car starts
> out fine in the morning. What do you guys suggest I do to fix this
> problem?
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Subhamoy.

Subhamoy,
You may be right. I suspect the fluid is contaminated or has broken down
or there may be air in the lines. Regardless, the best solution would be
to drain out all of the brake fluid and replace it with new fluid. If you
have never done it before--I advise you to take it to a mechanic that you
trust and have them do it. Mechanics have all of the tools and equipment
to make the job much easier and quicker. It's a messy job.
Jason

--
NEWSGROUP SUBSCRIBERS MOTTO
We respect those subscribers that ask for advice or provide advice.
We do NOT respect the subscribers that enjoy criticizing people.

 

Sounds like the problem I had with my 88 accord. Soft brakes when
everything got hot. It got so bad for me that I had to change the
master cylinder, and both wheel cylinders along with flush and bleeding
of the brake system.

But even with all that It didn't help things much. To me all honda's
feel this way. I now have an 2005 odyssey and the first thing I
noticed upon driving it was the soft brakes. Nothing like the old
accord but soft. I drove a number of Nissan's and every one of those
cars had brakes that would bring the car to a halt at the lightest
touch of the pedal.

 

On 10 Jun 2005 10:55:10 -0700, subhamoy@gmail.com wrote:

>
>After reading these (very helpful) forums, I concluded that this may be
>due to water/gas contamination in my brake line, or a leaky master
>cylinder. I had the brake fluid flushed yesterday, and the entire
>brake system was checked out. There was no apparent leaks anywhere. .
>.and the brake fluid levels have always been constant. Today, I still
>find the same soft brake pedal problem.

I would have guessed:

80% probability: master cylinder
15% probability: contaminated brake fluid
5% probability: something else

You eliminated the easy one. I think you need to do the master
cylinder now.

 

I should have mentioned in the previous post that the leak in the MC
is internal. You won't see any fluid on the garage floor.

On 10 Jun 2005 10:55:10 -0700, subhamoy@gmail.com wrote:

>Hello all,
>
>Now that summer is here and temperatures are rising above 90 (in this
>part of Maryland), I have been noticing a peculiar problem with my '92
>Honda Accord. Especially on a hot day (though I am not sure about this
>correlation) after the car's been driven around for a bit, the brake
>pedals tend to get soft. Rather, at high speeds braking slows the car
>down. . . but the application of a persistent pressure causes the pedal
>to keep getting depressed without noticeable braking action. Pumping
>the brake resumes braking, and then it goes soft again until one
>releases and depresses the brake once more. The brake appears to work
>better during the initial braking action, and then gets soft after it
>has been depressed for a little while. There is no squealing,
>clinking, or any kind of noise or vibration.
>
>After reading these (very helpful) forums, I concluded that this may be
>due to water/gas contamination in my brake line, or a leaky master
>cylinder. I had the brake fluid flushed yesterday, and the entire
>brake system was checked out. There was no apparent leaks anywhere. .
>.and the brake fluid levels have always been constant. Today, I still
>find the same soft brake pedal problem.
>
>It is hard to get advice from car mechanics on this, because the
>problem is moody and sometimes difficult to reproduce. The car starts
>out fine in the morning. What do you guys suggest I do to fix this
>problem?
>
>Sincerely,
>
>Subhamoy.

 

In article <6usja1tbmh21jekut9cb9v5je31l7la393@4ax.com>,
Gordon McGrew <gRmEcMgOrVeEw@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
>
>I should have mentioned in the previous post that the leak in the MC
>is internal. You won't see any fluid on the garage floor.

I agree. My wife's 92 Acura Legend had that problem and new master cylinder
fixed it.


--
Mike Iglesias Email: iglesias@draco.acs.uci.edu
University of California, Irvine phone: 949-824-6926
Network & Academic Computing Services FAX: 949-824-2069

 

The symptoms you describe are of a failing power brake master cylinder.
I know as this has happened to me on my '89 and '93 Accords.

I strongly suggest you have this attended to ASAP, as brake failure
could be imminent. The valve inside the cylinder is deteriorating and
when it goes say goodbye to your brakes!

As for repeatabilty of the symptoms, don't worry, it will definitely be
getting worse and start occuring more frequently. The problem is, you
don't know when it will eventually fail and the results could be
disasterous.

If you don't have a reliable mechanic, I have some suggestions:
1. Honda dealer
2. Independent Honda mechanic (in the phone book)
3. Car Talk.com - MechanXfiles - database of over 16,000 mechanics,
recommended by members - http://www.cartalk.com/content/mechx/
4. Helm service manual if you feel capable of doing it yourself?

Either way, don't wait, your '92 Accord is an accident waiting to
happen!

 

Same thing happening with my Acura Vigor. It gets worse if I run the A/C, as
it probably heats things up much more in the engine bay. I will be changing
the master cylinder and the hoses also (as a precaution).

I would do the master cylinder myself, as it looks simple enough in the
helms book, but it's just too damn messy and I don't want to work in 90F
humid weather.

<subhamoy@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1118426110.548008.230780@g47g2000cwa.googlegr oups.com...
> Hello all,
>
> Now that summer is here and temperatures are rising above 90 (in this
> part of Maryland), I have been noticing a peculiar problem with my '92
> Honda Accord. Especially on a hot day (though I am not sure about this
> correlation) after the car's been driven around for a bit, the brake
> pedals tend to get soft. Rather, at high speeds braking slows the car
> down. . . but the application of a persistent pressure causes the pedal
> to keep getting depressed without noticeable braking action. Pumping
> the brake resumes braking, and then it goes soft again until one
> releases and depresses the brake once more. The brake appears to work
> better during the initial braking action, and then gets soft after it
> has been depressed for a little while. There is no squealing,
> clinking, or any kind of noise or vibration.
>
> After reading these (very helpful) forums, I concluded that this may be
> due to water/gas contamination in my brake line, or a leaky master
> cylinder. I had the brake fluid flushed yesterday, and the entire
> brake system was checked out. There was no apparent leaks anywhere. .
> .and the brake fluid levels have always been constant. Today, I still
> find the same soft brake pedal problem.
>
> It is hard to get advice from car mechanics on this, because the
> problem is moody and sometimes difficult to reproduce. The car starts
> out fine in the morning. What do you guys suggest I do to fix this
> problem?
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Subhamoy.
>

 

On 10 Jun 2005 13:05:03 -0700, "chris24ali" <cali@iso.com> wrote:

>Sounds like the problem I had with my 88 accord. Soft brakes when
>everything got hot. It got so bad for me that I had to change the
>master cylinder, and both wheel cylinders along with flush and bleeding
>of the brake system.

When you say hot, do you mean from heavy braking such as going down
hills? Or do you mean city driving on a hot summer day?

The typical symptom of MC failure (in Hondas at least) is a hot summer
day, sitting at a stop light and suddenly the pedal sinks to the
floor. Pump it once or twice and it may be fine for a while.

Softness after heavy use sounds like the brake fluid is boiling due to
contamination, a mechanical problem or simple over use. It could also
be caused by a frozen caliper or similar problem which causes the
brake to be always applied. This is easy to recognize because one (or
more) wheels will be hot as a branding iron, even though you haven't
been braking much at all.

>But even with all that It didn't help things much. To me all honda's
>feel this way. I now have an 2005 odyssey and the first thing I
>noticed upon driving it was the soft brakes. Nothing like the old
>accord but soft. I drove a number of Nissan's and every one of those
>cars had brakes that would bring the car to a halt at the lightest
>touch of the pedal.

I would consider that to be over-boosted, but you can probably adapt
to anything. If you are used to one, the other is going to feel
wrong.

 

Definately hot summer day driving in the big city. I remember flushing
the system and finding fluid that was water like and dirty as hell.
I'm sure I didn't get out all and probably ended up contaminating the
new fluid.

 

subhamoy@gmail.com wrote:
> Hello all,
>
> Now that summer is here and temperatures are rising above 90 (in this
> part of Maryland), I have been noticing a peculiar problem with my '92
> Honda Accord. Especially on a hot day (though I am not sure about this
> correlation) after the car's been driven around for a bit, the brake
> pedals tend to get soft. Rather, at high speeds braking slows the car
> down. . . but the application of a persistent pressure causes the pedal
> to keep getting depressed without noticeable braking action. Pumping
> the brake resumes braking, and then it goes soft again until one
> releases and depresses the brake once more. The brake appears to work
> better during the initial braking action, and then gets soft after it
> has been depressed for a little while. There is no squealing,
> clinking, or any kind of noise or vibration.
>
> After reading these (very helpful) forums, I concluded that this may be
> due to water/gas contamination in my brake line, or a leaky master
> cylinder. I had the brake fluid flushed yesterday, and the entire
> brake system was checked out. There was no apparent leaks anywhere. .
> .and the brake fluid levels have always been constant. Today, I still
> find the same soft brake pedal problem.
>
> It is hard to get advice from car mechanics on this, because the
> problem is moody and sometimes difficult to reproduce. The car starts
> out fine in the morning. What do you guys suggest I do to fix this
> problem?
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Subhamoy.
>
a common symptom of the internal seals wearing is that they develop
grooves in their side wall that fluid can leak around. they work in
hard braking because the pressure deforms the seal for a close fit, and
when pumped, for the same reason, but under gradual braking,
particularly when hot, the symptoms are exactly as you describe.

if your car is an accord, i believe you can get a set of seals. if it's
a civic, you have to get the complete cylinder. either way, need to
take the master cylinder off and do the repair. doesn't take long.

 

Hello all,

Thank you for all the wonderful advice. Here is a follow up on how
this brake problem was solved.

As before, the problem would not replicate at the mechanics shop. The
consensus on this google-group seemed to be a defective master
cylinder, so I asked the mechanic to replace it. The mechanic told me
that since they hadn't replicated/diagnosed the problem, if the
replacement of the cylinder doesn't fix it, they can't be held liable.
And I agreed.

After replacing the master cylinder, they realized that the pressure in
the hydraulics was not what it should be. . .and an inspection revealed
that one of my front wheel calipers was broken. We fixed that. And
now the car seems to be running perfectly. . .without any issues with
the brakes.

I am still not sure how a defective caliper was undetected for so long.
There was no apparent lowering of my brake fluid levels. And I had my
brake system inspected by this mechanic once during an oil change, once
for a brake fluid flush, and finally for this master cylinder change. .
..every time I had described the problem and asked them to check the
system out. Should I be upset about this? Or is it natural for a
mechanic to miss a defective caliper while doing a brake fluid flush?

Anyway. I landed up paying for both the master cylinder and the
calipers. . .and labor to fix both. I am happy that the car is working
good now and the problem has been solved. Thanks to all of you who
responded to my query. And to others who may be having a soft brake
pedal. . .that tends to give in especially in hot weather. . .my advice
is: check the calipers too.

Sincerely,

Subhamoy.




jim beam wrote:
> subhamoy@gmail.com wrote:
> > Hello all,
> >
> > Now that summer is here and temperatures are rising above 90 (in this
> > part of Maryland), I have been noticing a peculiar problem with my '92
> > Honda Accord. Especially on a hot day (though I am not sure about this
> > correlation) after the car's been driven around for a bit, the brake
> > pedals tend to get soft. Rather, at high speeds braking slows the car
> > down. . . but the application of a persistent pressure causes the pedal
> > to keep getting depressed without noticeable braking action. Pumping
> > the brake resumes braking, and then it goes soft again until one
> > releases and depresses the brake once more. The brake appears to work
> > better during the initial braking action, and then gets soft after it
> > has been depressed for a little while. There is no squealing,
> > clinking, or any kind of noise or vibration.
> >
> > After reading these (very helpful) forums, I concluded that this may be
> > due to water/gas contamination in my brake line, or a leaky master
> > cylinder. I had the brake fluid flushed yesterday, and the entire
> > brake system was checked out. There was no apparent leaks anywhere. .
> > .and the brake fluid levels have always been constant. Today, I still
> > find the same soft brake pedal problem.
> >
> > It is hard to get advice from car mechanics on this, because the
> > problem is moody and sometimes difficult to reproduce. The car starts
> > out fine in the morning. What do you guys suggest I do to fix this
> > problem?
> >
> > Sincerely,
> >
> > Subhamoy.
> >
> a common symptom of the internal seals wearing is that they develop
> grooves in their side wall that fluid can leak around. they work in
> hard braking because the pressure deforms the seal for a close fit, and
> when pumped, for the same reason, but under gradual braking,
> particularly when hot, the symptoms are exactly as you describe.
>
> if your car is an accord, i believe you can get a set of seals. if it's
> a civic, you have to get the complete cylinder. either way, need to
> take the master cylinder off and do the repair. doesn't take long.

 

subhamoy@gmail.com wrote:
> Hello all,
>
> Thank you for all the wonderful advice. Here is a follow up on how
> this brake problem was solved.
>
> As before, the problem would not replicate at the mechanics shop. The
> consensus on this google-group seemed to be a defective master
> cylinder, so I asked the mechanic to replace it. The mechanic told me
> that since they hadn't replicated/diagnosed the problem, if the
> replacement of the cylinder doesn't fix it, they can't be held liable.
> And I agreed.
>
> After replacing the master cylinder, they realized that the pressure in
> the hydraulics was not what it should be. . .and an inspection revealed
> that one of my front wheel calipers was broken. We fixed that. And
> now the car seems to be running perfectly. . .without any issues with
> the brakes.

well, if you could gently push the pedal to the floor, the master
cylinder seal /was/ starting to leak. if you had a broken caliper as
well, it's shocking your shop did not detect the problem earlier, but
there's no reason you can't have both problems together. in terms of
costs, you're now set for about 10 years of utterly reliable service, so
i wouldn't sweat it. if you're using dot3 fluid like it says in the
honda manual, make sure it gets flushed annually - fresh fluid contains
rubber preservatives that keep the seals in good condition.

>
> I am still not sure how a defective caliper was undetected for so long.
> There was no apparent lowering of my brake fluid levels. And I had my
> brake system inspected by this mechanic once during an oil change, once
> for a brake fluid flush, and finally for this master cylinder change. .
> .every time I had described the problem and asked them to check the
> system out. Should I be upset about this? Or is it natural for a
> mechanic to miss a defective caliper while doing a brake fluid flush?
>
> Anyway. I landed up paying for both the master cylinder and the
> calipers. . .and labor to fix both. I am happy that the car is working
> good now and the problem has been solved. Thanks to all of you who
> responded to my query. And to others who may be having a soft brake
> pedal. . .that tends to give in especially in hot weather. . .my advice
> is: check the calipers too.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Subhamoy.
>
>
>
>
> jim beam wrote:
>
>>subhamoy@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>>>Hello all,
>>>
>>>Now that summer is here and temperatures are rising above 90 (in this
>>>part of Maryland), I have been noticing a peculiar problem with my '92
>>>Honda Accord. Especially on a hot day (though I am not sure about this
>>>correlation) after the car's been driven around for a bit, the brake
>>>pedals tend to get soft. Rather, at high speeds braking slows the car
>>>down. . . but the application of a persistent pressure causes the pedal
>>>to keep getting depressed without noticeable braking action. Pumping
>>>the brake resumes braking, and then it goes soft again until one
>>>releases and depresses the brake once more. The brake appears to work
>>>better during the initial braking action, and then gets soft after it
>>>has been depressed for a little while. There is no squealing,
>>>clinking, or any kind of noise or vibration.
>>>
>>>After reading these (very helpful) forums, I concluded that this may be
>>>due to water/gas contamination in my brake line, or a leaky master
>>>cylinder. I had the brake fluid flushed yesterday, and the entire
>>>brake system was checked out. There was no apparent leaks anywhere. .
>>>.and the brake fluid levels have always been constant. Today, I still
>>>find the same soft brake pedal problem.
>>>
>>>It is hard to get advice from car mechanics on this, because the
>>>problem is moody and sometimes difficult to reproduce. The car starts
>>>out fine in the morning. What do you guys suggest I do to fix this
>>>problem?
>>>
>>>Sincerely,
>>>
>>>Subhamoy.
>>>
>>
>>a common symptom of the internal seals wearing is that they develop
>>grooves in their side wall that fluid can leak around. they work in
>>hard braking because the pressure deforms the seal for a close fit, and
>>when pumped, for the same reason, but under gradual braking,
>>particularly when hot, the symptoms are exactly as you describe.
>>
>>if your car is an accord, i believe you can get a set of seals. if it's
>> a civic, you have to get the complete cylinder. either way, need to
>>take the master cylinder off and do the repair. doesn't take long.
>
>