My mileage story
ShadowMoses, great thread you posted above! The R32 is an impressive car! I'm sure Silver Bullet will come in here to respond to your thread as he's a bit more "cerebral" about this but he's the one that not only got me to run premium in the Fit but to switch to BP, I used to run Shell. I have not switched back to Shell "just to see" because I've had good luck with BP, surprised it didn't make the list, maybe someone is still mad about the oil spill (another story for another day
) Honestly, if Sunoco was still around here and they had 94, I'd probably be running that in the CR-Z but they don't so as of right now, I'm a BP guy.
SB is a big fan of using dry gas, so like I said, he'll be in here to respond to that additive but something he'll probably touch on is the gas may or may not be different down there because of the temp change from here in the mid-west to the warmer weather you guys generally get.
Now I see your in Knoxville.....are you a Dragon Slayer
) Honestly, if Sunoco was still around here and they had 94, I'd probably be running that in the CR-Z but they don't so as of right now, I'm a BP guy. SB is a big fan of using dry gas, so like I said, he'll be in here to respond to that additive but something he'll probably touch on is the gas may or may not be different down there because of the temp change from here in the mid-west to the warmer weather you guys generally get.
Now I see your in Knoxville.....are you a Dragon Slayer
Member
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 68
From: Knoxville, TN
First, haha, let me apologize for the encyclopedia I unleashed on my last post. Sometimes my fingers just go faster than I realize. The R32 is by a long shot the sweetest car I've had. It's an autobahn car, and it felt like it. Like pretty much all VWs, though, it started to get little squeaks and rattles, and my goodness, the maintenance is not cheap, haha. This year alone I averaged a smidge over $300 per month in maintenance costs, and I still had 20k miles of warranty left. The big killer is the 40k mile service. I had that and a new set of tires this year, and those two items things alone are over $2000. Throw in the usual maintenance, like brakes, oil, rotate/balance, and whatnot, and that car was just hungry for money, haha. I did have one transmission repair that, thankfully, was covered under warranty. Were it not, that would have added about 1400 to the total. But, jeez, I loved it, lol. I have to admit, though, I really love the Fit... equally so, but for different reasons. I always felt like a foreigner in a strange land with the VW; I've had many other Hondas over the years, and it's what I know best.
I have definitely slayed the Dragon many times, haha. My favorite thing to do is to run the Dragon however many times you want, and instead of coming back home to Knoxville through the Foothills Parkway, I'll take a left at the split right there at Deal's Gap, and ride the Cheorhala Skyway home. It's a gorgeous drive any time of year, and a lot of fun. If you're there in winter, though, you have to be aware because it can get icy at the higher elevations. It takes me about 45 minutes to get to the Dragon, give or take. I'm curious to take the Fit up there, but I know that the instant I do I'll want to put on a full suspension, wheels, and tires, haha. I'm trying to avoid that on this car so I can save for a project vehicle.
The CR-Z is one car that has seriously grown on me in a huge way. I love the interior of that car. I wish I could get away with 2 seats, because that's likely where I'd be. It just seems like it would be a great all-around car.
I have definitely slayed the Dragon many times, haha. My favorite thing to do is to run the Dragon however many times you want, and instead of coming back home to Knoxville through the Foothills Parkway, I'll take a left at the split right there at Deal's Gap, and ride the Cheorhala Skyway home. It's a gorgeous drive any time of year, and a lot of fun. If you're there in winter, though, you have to be aware because it can get icy at the higher elevations. It takes me about 45 minutes to get to the Dragon, give or take. I'm curious to take the Fit up there, but I know that the instant I do I'll want to put on a full suspension, wheels, and tires, haha. I'm trying to avoid that on this car so I can save for a project vehicle.
The CR-Z is one car that has seriously grown on me in a huge way. I love the interior of that car. I wish I could get away with 2 seats, because that's likely where I'd be. It just seems like it would be a great all-around car.
I had VWs in the early 70s until the mid 90s but nothing like the R32.. My son has a friend from Germany that owned one but found it way to costly and got rid of it... I got the Fit because of its similarities to the old VW Rabbits and it has exceeded my expectations... It is tweaked a bit now but I have driven it fast even when it was bone stock.. I actually had an increase of 3MPG using 93 octane fuel and even a tad higher by adding octane booster that also increased power and low end torque...I have the KWSC high boost kit now and like you I find the the Hondata reflash is a bit on the rich side but it can seem a bit over the top rich at times... I'm planning to get a larger more comfortable car for driving long distances because my Fit is becoming somewhat too intense to drive more than a couple of hours in... I recently put a new set of tires on it without checking the weight of them and they have done a number on fuel mileage and acceleration, but I don't have to hit 45 mph in 2nd before the front tires hook up and cornering even in the wet is amazing... I was thinking economy when I got my Fit in 2006 but the little car was so much fun that I had to go crazy, spend money and bust my knuckles to create a miniature monster... Living where you do I think you would benefit more from higher octane than someone where there isn't the kind of hills you drive up and down... The ECU will increase the ignition advance and under a load you will need less throttle to go the same speed than you would with 87 octane..
Member
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,304
From: Illinois
Ok, so, I've been poring over this entire thread from the very beginning. All speculation aside, I do agree that, yes, 87 is the minimum octane rating. That allows some flexibility. My previous car was an '08 Volkswagen R32, which has 11.4 CR and a 91 octane minimum fuel requirement. Where I live we have 93, not 91. There is less flexibility there, obviously, as I can only run 93 or higher, with higher octane being quite rare and more expensive. In an emergency situation, you could put a lower octane, but the car would protest. In theory, then, 100 octane would make the car run better since the octane rating denotes the fuel's resistance to detonation. I did not tune the car to run on 100 octane, which is a $600 reflash charge from APR or REVO or some similar company. Any MPG increase, there, though would be thoroughly offset by the cost of the reflash to take advantage of 100 octane without even considering the cost of the fuel.
With that said, I notice that, on occasion, some of you have used fuel additives such as Dry Gas. How much does this product cost? I'm all about maximizing my fuel mileage, but when trying to squeeze out those last couple MPGs it's easy to run into diminishing returns. For example, here in Knoxville, TN, the average price of 87 this year has been 3.30 per gallon. Today it's 2.95, but this is about as low as it's been all year. Premium, 93 octane, averages about .31 cents per gallon more, annually, than our 87 does here. I could not use 87 in the R32, so this comparison would be useless there. The OBC on my '12 Fit Sport MT shows that I'm getting 34.7 MPG with mixed city/hwy driving. In reality this is probably going to turn out being 33, which is still very good in my eyes coming from 20mpg average in the VW (6-cyl AWD). My drive is nearly identical every single day. Fifteen miles, one-way, with 13 of that being interstate highway with occasional trips around town. We live in the foothills of the Smoky Mountains, and climbing constant hills has an effect. I don't see my mpg changing much from where it is, but I'm tracking it on fuelly.com just like I did with my VW. Let's take those average annual fuel costs I mentioned earlier: $3.30 for 87, $3.61 for 93 octane. For me, anyway, I would have to average, at a bare minimum, 3 mpg better on 93 octane for an entire year in order to break even on the costs. I know it's only a few bucks per tank (3.10 per tank, on an empty tank using the annual fuel price averages), but that adds up quickly over a year. In fact, given a 3mpg increase I would be spending $5 more per year on 93 octane than I would on 87 octane.
I suppose in my case I could argue that t would not actually be wasting money on 93 octane, assuming I can actually average 3mpg higher for an entire year by doing so. If I am wrong, and I see no gain in economy then my annual fuel cost, for my mileage driven, would be $150 higher that year to experiment. (This does not take into account any fuel additives, since that totally destroys any financial benefit of higher MPGs that moving to a higher octane fuel might entail). In order to actually make back that $150 a year, I would have to average, for an entire year, 6.5 mpg better.
Is it possible? Who knows. What I do know, though, is that Honda did engineer the Fit to operate reliably on 87 octane fuel. I'm not pointing fingers and saying anyone is wrong. Clearly Klasse-Act saw a fairly large gain in economy that time in November 2010, but did it hold true all year? If you can financially justify the move to premium fuel, then that's definitely what you should do. Part of the reason I sold my R32 was to get better gas mileage, among several other factors, including trying to start a family. The benefit alone of being able to move to 87 octane over 93 was pretty nice. That alone would save me $50 a year in that particular car. Add in a whopping 13 mpg average increase, and you're talking major bucks - 1500 annually, actually, which is massive when you consider that's just the gains from better fuel economy on cheaper fuel. If premium is, indeed, helping people see a true benefit, then that's what you should do. In my case, though, it would not help me at all. I don't like to think in terms of monthly payments, since I like to focus on limiting debt as much as possible, but consider this: If your annual fuel economy is unchanged, overall, by moving to premium, and your average fuel prices are similarly about .31 per gallon different, then you're actually losing $150 a year, which is 12.50 per month. This is basically adding 12.50 onto your monthly payment for which you get nothing in return.
I mean, look, sometimes being wrong is great, and if I can save actual money (I would need to see 4-6 mpg increases to see any savings) by going to 93, then I will, but can someone else post any sort of annual numbers for their car as far as fuel consumption is concerned? I think if we can see a truthful breakdown of total fillups at a certain cost for a certain grade of fuel, then we can extrapolate what sort of gain you're actually seeing - on a relatively stock vehicle without forced induction.
As a side note, before the R32 I had a 2003 Civic Si, which I supercharged with a high-boost kit. It was a night and day difference. The Hondata computer ran a little rich, but not overly so. The funny thing is, I was shocked to hear that Klasse-Act was getting better results from the BP fuel. I have a BP station about 1/4 mile from my house, so it was always convenient. For a while I got misfires constantly in the Civic. They weren't audible, but they don't have to be. Around the time I was looking at tuning my fuel, I literally stumbled upon some information I had never seen before. Several automotive manufacturers came together and discussed which fuel detergent work best in their vehicles. At the time, the list was much shorter, but what they created is called Top Tier Gas (toptiergas.com). Those MFGs are BMW, General Motors, Honda, Toyota, Volkswagen, and Audi. On the list of fuel providers, BP was nowhere to be found - they are still missing from the list. Conoco and Shell did and still do use Top Tier detergent. Both of which are also quite close to my house. I made the switch to gas from those providers and my misfire problem disappeared for good. I made no tuning changes, only a change in the brand of fuel I used. I only mention this out of curiosity, since, in the MPG arena, Klasse-Act saw better economy with BP, whereas I saw worse performance and detonation resistance with that same brand of gas. I put BP in the Fit since it's so close to my house, and this car is unmodified. Because of my experience, though, I do still prefer to hit the Conoco or the Shell by my place, and I will seek them out on road trips, even if it is out of habit due to years of bad temperament my Civic showed toward BP gas.
With that said, I notice that, on occasion, some of you have used fuel additives such as Dry Gas. How much does this product cost? I'm all about maximizing my fuel mileage, but when trying to squeeze out those last couple MPGs it's easy to run into diminishing returns. For example, here in Knoxville, TN, the average price of 87 this year has been 3.30 per gallon. Today it's 2.95, but this is about as low as it's been all year. Premium, 93 octane, averages about .31 cents per gallon more, annually, than our 87 does here. I could not use 87 in the R32, so this comparison would be useless there. The OBC on my '12 Fit Sport MT shows that I'm getting 34.7 MPG with mixed city/hwy driving. In reality this is probably going to turn out being 33, which is still very good in my eyes coming from 20mpg average in the VW (6-cyl AWD). My drive is nearly identical every single day. Fifteen miles, one-way, with 13 of that being interstate highway with occasional trips around town. We live in the foothills of the Smoky Mountains, and climbing constant hills has an effect. I don't see my mpg changing much from where it is, but I'm tracking it on fuelly.com just like I did with my VW. Let's take those average annual fuel costs I mentioned earlier: $3.30 for 87, $3.61 for 93 octane. For me, anyway, I would have to average, at a bare minimum, 3 mpg better on 93 octane for an entire year in order to break even on the costs. I know it's only a few bucks per tank (3.10 per tank, on an empty tank using the annual fuel price averages), but that adds up quickly over a year. In fact, given a 3mpg increase I would be spending $5 more per year on 93 octane than I would on 87 octane.
I suppose in my case I could argue that t would not actually be wasting money on 93 octane, assuming I can actually average 3mpg higher for an entire year by doing so. If I am wrong, and I see no gain in economy then my annual fuel cost, for my mileage driven, would be $150 higher that year to experiment. (This does not take into account any fuel additives, since that totally destroys any financial benefit of higher MPGs that moving to a higher octane fuel might entail). In order to actually make back that $150 a year, I would have to average, for an entire year, 6.5 mpg better.
Is it possible? Who knows. What I do know, though, is that Honda did engineer the Fit to operate reliably on 87 octane fuel. I'm not pointing fingers and saying anyone is wrong. Clearly Klasse-Act saw a fairly large gain in economy that time in November 2010, but did it hold true all year? If you can financially justify the move to premium fuel, then that's definitely what you should do. Part of the reason I sold my R32 was to get better gas mileage, among several other factors, including trying to start a family. The benefit alone of being able to move to 87 octane over 93 was pretty nice. That alone would save me $50 a year in that particular car. Add in a whopping 13 mpg average increase, and you're talking major bucks - 1500 annually, actually, which is massive when you consider that's just the gains from better fuel economy on cheaper fuel. If premium is, indeed, helping people see a true benefit, then that's what you should do. In my case, though, it would not help me at all. I don't like to think in terms of monthly payments, since I like to focus on limiting debt as much as possible, but consider this: If your annual fuel economy is unchanged, overall, by moving to premium, and your average fuel prices are similarly about .31 per gallon different, then you're actually losing $150 a year, which is 12.50 per month. This is basically adding 12.50 onto your monthly payment for which you get nothing in return.
I mean, look, sometimes being wrong is great, and if I can save actual money (I would need to see 4-6 mpg increases to see any savings) by going to 93, then I will, but can someone else post any sort of annual numbers for their car as far as fuel consumption is concerned? I think if we can see a truthful breakdown of total fillups at a certain cost for a certain grade of fuel, then we can extrapolate what sort of gain you're actually seeing - on a relatively stock vehicle without forced induction.
As a side note, before the R32 I had a 2003 Civic Si, which I supercharged with a high-boost kit. It was a night and day difference. The Hondata computer ran a little rich, but not overly so. The funny thing is, I was shocked to hear that Klasse-Act was getting better results from the BP fuel. I have a BP station about 1/4 mile from my house, so it was always convenient. For a while I got misfires constantly in the Civic. They weren't audible, but they don't have to be. Around the time I was looking at tuning my fuel, I literally stumbled upon some information I had never seen before. Several automotive manufacturers came together and discussed which fuel detergent work best in their vehicles. At the time, the list was much shorter, but what they created is called Top Tier Gas (toptiergas.com). Those MFGs are BMW, General Motors, Honda, Toyota, Volkswagen, and Audi. On the list of fuel providers, BP was nowhere to be found - they are still missing from the list. Conoco and Shell did and still do use Top Tier detergent. Both of which are also quite close to my house. I made the switch to gas from those providers and my misfire problem disappeared for good. I made no tuning changes, only a change in the brand of fuel I used. I only mention this out of curiosity, since, in the MPG arena, Klasse-Act saw better economy with BP, whereas I saw worse performance and detonation resistance with that same brand of gas. I put BP in the Fit since it's so close to my house, and this car is unmodified. Because of my experience, though, I do still prefer to hit the Conoco or the Shell by my place, and I will seek them out on road trips, even if it is out of habit due to years of bad temperament my Civic showed toward BP gas.
Top teir means they sent samples to BMW and it passed the minimum 50000 mile requirement. The one that they use cant be changed. Bp surpasses the minimum requirement. They wont pay to have it tested and have to use the same ingredients and they also dont use ethanol in their premium which is a automatic fail. They have teamed up with Dupont to use Butanol which is better than ethanol.
100 octane race fuel vaporizes completely at 280 degrees which gasoline is 437 degrees final boiling point. It means that all the fuel is vaporized before the spark is initiated and has a less chance of knocking with racing fuel. Honda left 2 degrees on the table for premium and is about 4-5 degrees for regular which premium timing advance means more torque in the mid range for better acceleration and mpg due to higher efficiency's. Knock control tables
The Fit runs rich at loads over 70 percent which is from off idle to cursing speed, Its not 3/4 pressing down on the gas pedal. More timing leans that out. Keep in mind that on average there is 600 firing of the spark plugs per minute, that is alot of cycles. Premium helps make sure that all those cycles are knock free.
I throw in a half a bottle of Iso-Heet into a full tank to remove any water from condensation. Ethanol has Phase separation problems and toluene holds water too and when the temperature changes it squeezes the water out of the fuel and that's phase seperation resulting in lower octane gas than what you put in and if that water enters the motor it could stall and hydro lock. I personally dont like ethanol in the gasoline but understand some of the performance benefits.
If I missed something just ask. I dont care if you use premium or not but want you to learn about the differences and how it works. Its up to you on weather its for you. You have to use more than a tank full to make that decision too. I would do 3 or more tanks but if the weather or traffic is worse than normal keep that in mind about the results. Winter gas up here has 6 percent less BTU's and I am using the lights both ways to work and seeing about 35mpg from 42 in the summer. Lights use about 20 percent more fuel according to my ultra gauge. Then there is temp correction, because not all the fuel vaporizes more fuel is injected to assure a complete combustion.
Last edited by SilverBullet; Dec 22, 2011 at 11:02 PM.
Member
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,304
From: Illinois
I... Living where you do I think you would benefit more from higher octane than someone where there isn't the kind of hills you drive up and down... The ECU will increase the ignition advance and under a load you will need less throttle to go the same speed than you would with 87 octane..
So the 2 degrees adds more cylinder pressure resulting in more power if it hits the crank at 15-20 degrees after top dead canter. Knock is a un-controlled burn resulting in lost of power and damage to the crank and pistons at least. I dont why they say a little knock is OK. No knock is what you want.
Tuning allow you to tune 13.5 which is max torque and the added fuel cools the chamber so more timing can be added to produce more torque in the mid range. 12.5 is max HP but a loss in mpg. This is a NA motor and DSM could explain a turbo better but this is close too. Premium is a faster burning fuel and that is why a F1 (18 to 1 compression running 18000 rpms) motor uses 96 octane. There is less time to burn so 96 is all you need.
Last edited by SilverBullet; Dec 22, 2011 at 10:59 PM.
Member
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 68
From: Knoxville, TN
I had VWs in the early 70s until the mid 90s but nothing like the R32.. My son has a friend from Germany that owned one but found it way to costly and got rid of it... I got the Fit because of its similarities to the old VW Rabbits and it has exceeded my expectations... It is tweaked a bit now but I have driven it fast even when it was bone stock.. I actually had an increase of 3MPG using 93 octane fuel and even a tad higher by adding octane booster that also increased power and low end torque...I have the KWSC high boost kit now and like you I find the the Hondata reflash is a bit on the rich side but it can seem a bit over the top rich at times... I'm planning to get a larger more comfortable car for driving long distances because my Fit is becoming somewhat too intense to drive more than a couple of hours in... I recently put a new set of tires on it without checking the weight of them and they have done a number on fuel mileage and acceleration, but I don't have to hit 45 mph in 2nd before the front tires hook up and cornering even in the wet is amazing... I was thinking economy when I got my Fit in 2006 but the little car was so much fun that I had to go crazy, spend money and bust my knuckles to create a miniature monster... Living where you do I think you would benefit more from higher octane than someone where there isn't the kind of hills you drive up and down... The ECU will increase the ignition advance and under a load you will need less throttle to go the same speed than you would with 87 octane..
Member
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 68
From: Knoxville, TN
I dont get your math, 31 cents more for premium is high but if you get 3 mpg your saving. I pay 20-24 cents more for premium and see at least 4 mpg. When I bought this car I got 36 the first tank and used regular the next 2 and my mpg fell to 34 even though the weather was warming up. I then used mid grade and got 37 and premium 40 plus. That told me the first tank had premium from the factory and mixed with regular. I have seen 2 more degrees timing on the scan gauge and even though Honda left about 2 degrees more there is a benefit of more acceleration which mean the engine is running more efficient which mean its less stressful on the engine and other parts.
Top teir means they sent samples to BMW and it passed the minimum 50000 mile requirement. The one that they use cant be changed. Bp surpasses the minimum requirement. They wont pay to have it tested and have to use the same ingredients and they also dont use ethanol in their premium which is a automatic fail. They have teamed up with Dupont to use Butanol which is better than ethanol.
100 octane race fuel vaporizes completely at 280 degrees which gasoline is 437 degrees final boiling point. It means that all the fuel is vaporized before the spark is initiated and has a less chance of knocking with racing fuel. Honda left 2 degrees on the table for premium and is about 4-5 degrees for regular which premium timing advance means more torque in the mid range for better acceleration and mpg due to higher efficiency's. Knock control tables
The Fit runs rich at loads over 70 percent which is from off idle to cursing speed, Its not 3/4 pressing down on the gas pedal. More timing leans that out. Keep in mind that on average there is 600 firing of the spark plugs per minute, that is alot of cycles. Premium helps make sure that all those cycles are knock free.
I throw in a half a bottle of Iso-Heet into a full tank to remove any water from condensation. Ethanol has Phase separation problems and toluene holds water too and when the temperature changes it squeezes the water out of the fuel and that's phase seperation resulting in lower octane gas than what you put in and if that water enters the motor it could stall and hydro lock. I personally dont like ethanol in the gasoline but understand some of the performance benefits.
If I missed something just ask. I dont care if you use premium or not but want you to learn about the differences and how it works. Its up to you on weather its for you. You have to use more than a tank full to make that decision too. I would do 3 or more tanks but if the weather or traffic is worse than normal keep that in mind about the results. Winter gas up here has 6 percent less BTU's and I am using the lights both ways to work and seeing about 35mpg from 42 in the summer. Lights use about 20 percent more fuel according to my ultra gauge. Then there is temp correction, because not all the fuel vaporizes more fuel is injected to assure a complete combustion.
Top teir means they sent samples to BMW and it passed the minimum 50000 mile requirement. The one that they use cant be changed. Bp surpasses the minimum requirement. They wont pay to have it tested and have to use the same ingredients and they also dont use ethanol in their premium which is a automatic fail. They have teamed up with Dupont to use Butanol which is better than ethanol.
100 octane race fuel vaporizes completely at 280 degrees which gasoline is 437 degrees final boiling point. It means that all the fuel is vaporized before the spark is initiated and has a less chance of knocking with racing fuel. Honda left 2 degrees on the table for premium and is about 4-5 degrees for regular which premium timing advance means more torque in the mid range for better acceleration and mpg due to higher efficiency's. Knock control tables
The Fit runs rich at loads over 70 percent which is from off idle to cursing speed, Its not 3/4 pressing down on the gas pedal. More timing leans that out. Keep in mind that on average there is 600 firing of the spark plugs per minute, that is alot of cycles. Premium helps make sure that all those cycles are knock free.
I throw in a half a bottle of Iso-Heet into a full tank to remove any water from condensation. Ethanol has Phase separation problems and toluene holds water too and when the temperature changes it squeezes the water out of the fuel and that's phase seperation resulting in lower octane gas than what you put in and if that water enters the motor it could stall and hydro lock. I personally dont like ethanol in the gasoline but understand some of the performance benefits.
If I missed something just ask. I dont care if you use premium or not but want you to learn about the differences and how it works. Its up to you on weather its for you. You have to use more than a tank full to make that decision too. I would do 3 or more tanks but if the weather or traffic is worse than normal keep that in mind about the results. Winter gas up here has 6 percent less BTU's and I am using the lights both ways to work and seeing about 35mpg from 42 in the summer. Lights use about 20 percent more fuel according to my ultra gauge. Then there is temp correction, because not all the fuel vaporizes more fuel is injected to assure a complete combustion.
My math is coming from the miles that I drive per year, generally about 18900 annually. Gas prices have fluctuated a lot this year, but I know from research that 87 averaged 3.30 a gallon, with January and December being the lowest-priced months. Given the price of premium, it averages about .31 cents per gallon higher, which is a lot, I realize. It used to be about .20 cents, but in 2008 the prices got really out of whack and haven't been the same since. Most stations totally ran out of gas many times during a several-month span, and people were going a little nuts. If I drive 18900 a year that breaks down to 57 fill-ups per year at 33 MPG annual average. At an average price of 3.30 for 87 that would cost me $1890. If I average the same mpg on 93 the annual cost is $2068 for a difference of $178. If I average 3mpg better on 93 octane, that would bring the cost of premium, annually, to 1895, a difference of only $5, which, honestly, is a wash. I just want you to see the math I'm using, based on tracking my mileage over the course of several vehicles; I always seem to average about the same mileage per year as I've been working at the same place for 8 years.
I did not know that fuel companies paid to have their fuels tested with Top Tier. That's good to know. At our BP stations, though, we have the sticker that says "all fuels contain 10% ethanol." It sucks, and it's been that way since I had my Civic. It really reduced my MPG in that car noticeably, and for some reason after going supercharged it was a guarantee that BP gas would give me misfires (according to my scanner), unless I used an octane booster with it. Odd, but it held true each time I tested that. The Fit is more tolerant and less sensitive to fuel changes since it can flexibly run on fuels as low as 87, reliably.
I would love to get 37 or more MPG in the Fit, which is where I'd have to be to come out ahead at all. I certainly value any discussion like this, because I always want to get the most out of my vehicles. I'll run some 93 on my next tank as a start and see where it takes me. As it is now, driving very conservatively, never going above 3k rpm (yeah, it's slow, haha), my display seems unwilling to show above 34.8 MPG, which I'm guessing will translate to about 33 MPG in real world numbers. If the computer makes its changes as slowly as indicated in the Hondata link, then it may be a bit before I'm able to reply with tangible results, but I'm looking forward to seeing what unfolds. At worst, I'm spending $12 bucks over 4 tanks to try it out.
Again, thanks for the replies - everyone. I checked this sub-forum purely out of curiosity, and I came out with a ton more information that I expected.
Member
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,304
From: Illinois
There are benefits to premium but its not a magical product. In order to get the HP and mpg they have to raise compression. Actually 93 octane is not high enough under some conditions but the timing retard keeps the motor safe. I have never had a problem with BP running lean except it operates it close loop through out the rpm. I would fill up a few times with regular and see what your average is and then step it up to mid grade. It takes time for the ecu to advance the timing, It usually goes up .5 degrees at a time but there is a lot of different cells and conditions that the ecu is re adjusting.
The wife and I have the same cars and I use mine for work and hers for everything else. She uses regular but because all the short trips and idling she does I didn't care. The car eventually ran bad and I would throw in premium and it would run better. Mid grade seems to be the best alternative for her car. Her mpg is up and the car runs better. I drive interstate and city which is about 50/50 time wise and got 42 in the summer and last winter the mpg was bad and brought the average down to 37.5. Cold air and the drag of lights and longer warm ups hurt mpg.
The wife and I have the same cars and I use mine for work and hers for everything else. She uses regular but because all the short trips and idling she does I didn't care. The car eventually ran bad and I would throw in premium and it would run better. Mid grade seems to be the best alternative for her car. Her mpg is up and the car runs better. I drive interstate and city which is about 50/50 time wise and got 42 in the summer and last winter the mpg was bad and brought the average down to 37.5. Cold air and the drag of lights and longer warm ups hurt mpg.
ShadowMoses, welcome to FF BTW
Even though its many monthes away, I'd like to personally invite you to our 10th annual Fall Dragon run this October, there will be a thread here. Last year, over the weekend, we had a total of 7 Fits show up from this site and next year should be about the same if not more. Since your a local and know the road, you'd be a perfect addition to our run. EVERY FF member who showed up last year was great with nice cars and even better attitudes about the road, very respectful too
We're all about the Skyway as we stay in Tellico Plains here Caney Creek Village in Tellico Plains, Tennessee and we also explore route 28, right next to Deal's Gap. This invite also goes out to everyone here, especially those who contribute to this thread, smart people are always welcome on this run, can't have enough brains out there!!!
Even though its many monthes away, I'd like to personally invite you to our 10th annual Fall Dragon run this October, there will be a thread here. Last year, over the weekend, we had a total of 7 Fits show up from this site and next year should be about the same if not more. Since your a local and know the road, you'd be a perfect addition to our run. EVERY FF member who showed up last year was great with nice cars and even better attitudes about the road, very respectful too
We're all about the Skyway as we stay in Tellico Plains here Caney Creek Village in Tellico Plains, Tennessee and we also explore route 28, right next to Deal's Gap. This invite also goes out to everyone here, especially those who contribute to this thread, smart people are always welcome on this run, can't have enough brains out there!!!
Member
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 68
From: Knoxville, TN
ShadowMoses, welcome to FF BTW
Even though its many monthes away, I'd like to personally invite you to our 10th annual Fall Dragon run this October, there will be a thread here. Last year, over the weekend, we had a total of 7 Fits show up from this site and next year should be about the same if not more. Since your a local and know the road, you'd be a perfect addition to our run. EVERY FF member who showed up last year was great with nice cars and even better attitudes about the road, very respectful too We're all about the Skyway as we stay in Tellico Plains here Caney Creek Village in Tellico Plains, Tennessee and we also explore route 28, right next to Deal's Gap. This invite also goes out to everyone here, especially those who contribute to this thread, smart people are always welcome on this run, can't have enough brains out there!!!
Even though its many monthes away, I'd like to personally invite you to our 10th annual Fall Dragon run this October, there will be a thread here. Last year, over the weekend, we had a total of 7 Fits show up from this site and next year should be about the same if not more. Since your a local and know the road, you'd be a perfect addition to our run. EVERY FF member who showed up last year was great with nice cars and even better attitudes about the road, very respectful too
We're all about the Skyway as we stay in Tellico Plains here Caney Creek Village in Tellico Plains, Tennessee and we also explore route 28, right next to Deal's Gap. This invite also goes out to everyone here, especially those who contribute to this thread, smart people are always welcome on this run, can't have enough brains out there!!!Sounds like a good time! Last meet I went to was probably 3 years ago, but I hit the dragon just a few months ago. I always love it.
Member
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,304
From: Illinois
I found this and is a good explanation of active timing and octane. I realize this is a turbo motor but the tech is the same. EcuTek Active Ignition Timing
http://www.mrtrally.com.au/performan...ver3-FINAL.pdf
http://www.mrtrally.com.au/performan...ver3-FINAL.pdf
Oh yeah, who cars about MPG with this run but FWIW, the OBC showed me an amount of 22 mpg at one point out there, there's something MPG related to the thread, can't believe how long this thread has gotten
Member
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,304
From: Illinois
I filled up today, the first time in two weeks for my car and got 34.5 which my ultra gauge said 38 and I noticed the correction was 13 percent. The speed correction was 5 percent so the fuel has 6-8 percent less btus compared to summer and a total of 23 percent less mpg than summer highest mpg. Usually the correction with summer fuel is about 2-3 percent total from what the 42 average mpg. I take it that the engine ecu is not registering the extra fuel used due to lower btu content and fuel enrichment due to the cold. As advanced as the ecu's are there is room for improvement.
34.5 mpg is lower than I want but there was more local driving with longer idle due to I was on vacation and driving my son to school.
I drove my car to work and it still runs like new compared to the wife car with less mpg. I have to take it to the dealer because of a miss off idle with no CEL. I will be mad if its the coils and will have a opinion of why they are failing. The mpg is up on her car and might try a cleaner first to see if its a carbon issue but 3 days of toll way driving did not fix the problem.
34.5 mpg is lower than I want but there was more local driving with longer idle due to I was on vacation and driving my son to school.
I drove my car to work and it still runs like new compared to the wife car with less mpg. I have to take it to the dealer because of a miss off idle with no CEL. I will be mad if its the coils and will have a opinion of why they are failing. The mpg is up on her car and might try a cleaner first to see if its a carbon issue but 3 days of toll way driving did not fix the problem.
My mileage went up 2 mpg from the last tank (40.6 vs. 38.7) and I still stayed in NORMAL mode but its kinda funny how this thing is, no reason for the drop and now, no reason for the gain....IT IS WHAT IT IS!
SB, I know your not a fan of the K&N typhoon intake for winter mileage but since it didn't really affect the Fit last winter, I wish I had it now because I feel that with the increase in torque, it would help the mileage. There's another new intake on the market for the CR-Z from Takada and its completely enclosed and made 10 hp and 10 ft/lbs over stock, its about $100 more than the K&N, thinking about waiting it out for that one.
SB, I know your not a fan of the K&N typhoon intake for winter mileage but since it didn't really affect the Fit last winter, I wish I had it now because I feel that with the increase in torque, it would help the mileage. There's another new intake on the market for the CR-Z from Takada and its completely enclosed and made 10 hp and 10 ft/lbs over stock, its about $100 more than the K&N, thinking about waiting it out for that one.
Member
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,304
From: Illinois
My mileage went up 2 mpg from the last tank (40.6 vs. 38.7) and I still stayed in NORMAL mode but its kinda funny how this thing is, no reason for the drop and now, no reason for the gain....IT IS WHAT IT IS!
SB, I know your not a fan of the K&N typhoon intake for winter mileage but since it didn't really affect the Fit last winter, I wish I had it now because I feel that with the increase in torque, it would help the mileage. There's another new intake on the market for the CR-Z from Takada and its completely enclosed and made 10 hp and 10 ft/lbs over stock, its about $100 more than the K&N, thinking about waiting it out for that one.
SB, I know your not a fan of the K&N typhoon intake for winter mileage but since it didn't really affect the Fit last winter, I wish I had it now because I feel that with the increase in torque, it would help the mileage. There's another new intake on the market for the CR-Z from Takada and its completely enclosed and made 10 hp and 10 ft/lbs over stock, its about $100 more than the K&N, thinking about waiting it out for that one.
I am not against a cold intake. The air is so cold right now with the intake it just uses more fuel. Granted more power can also equal better mpg. 10 Hp/10 torque is not making sense to me. Torque is related to compression which adding a intake does not raise except the add fuel adds a little but not enough for 10 pounds. Maybe the cam was tuned to come in sooner and together they added that but I am not sure. Hp is related to torque and flame speed. I could see 10 Hp if more fuel and timing added.
Your back to BP right? My mpg is a little lower but not as bad as last year winter. I noticed the barometric pressure was extremely high this morning and it was very cold 12 degrees both of which hurts mpg.
I am not against a cold intake. The air is so cold right now with the intake it just uses more fuel. Granted more power can also equal better mpg. 10 Hp/10 torque is not making sense to me. Torque is related to compression which adding a intake does not raise except the add fuel adds a little but not enough for 10 pounds. Maybe the cam was tuned to come in sooner and together they added that but I am not sure. Hp is related to torque and flame speed. I could see 10 Hp if more fuel and timing added.
I am not against a cold intake. The air is so cold right now with the intake it just uses more fuel. Granted more power can also equal better mpg. 10 Hp/10 torque is not making sense to me. Torque is related to compression which adding a intake does not raise except the add fuel adds a little but not enough for 10 pounds. Maybe the cam was tuned to come in sooner and together they added that but I am not sure. Hp is related to torque and flame speed. I could see 10 Hp if more fuel and timing added.
As far as being back on BP, I never ever left it really, just a couple times in the fall I was at Speedway getting a carwash and REALLY needed gas right then and there, not to mention once or twice at Mobil but I'm a BP guy and damn those gas prices again today
Member
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,304
From: Illinois
Check out the Takada thread on the CR-Z forum, there's dyno proof of this from the dyno at Greddy.
As far as being back on BP, I never ever left it really, just a couple times in the fall I was at Speedway getting a carwash and REALLY needed gas right then and there, not to mention once or twice at Mobil but I'm a BP guy and damn those gas prices again today
As far as being back on BP, I never ever left it really, just a couple times in the fall I was at Speedway getting a carwash and REALLY needed gas right then and there, not to mention once or twice at Mobil but I'm a BP guy and damn those gas prices again today
I do like that idea of the IMA and people are getting excited but they dont understand where the HP and torque are coming from. That's why I am just watching.
I hate the raise in fuel prices when the fuel is easier to make in the winter. I also hate the tollway raising the tolls 90 percent.
Member
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,304
From: Illinois
I had VWs in the early 70s until the mid 90s but nothing like the R32.. My son has a friend from Germany that owned one but found it way to costly and got rid of it... I got the Fit because of its similarities to the old VW Rabbits and it has exceeded my expectations... It is tweaked a bit now but I have driven it fast even when it was bone stock.. I actually had an increase of 3MPG using 93 octane fuel and even a tad higher by adding octane booster that also increased power and low end torque...I have the KWSC high boost kit now and like you I find the the Hondata reflash is a bit on the rich side but it can seem a bit over the top rich at times... I'm planning to get a larger more comfortable car for driving long distances because my Fit is becoming somewhat too intense to drive more than a couple of hours in... I recently put a new set of tires on it without checking the weight of them and they have done a number on fuel mileage and acceleration, but I don't have to hit 45 mph in 2nd before the front tires hook up and cornering even in the wet is amazing... I was thinking economy when I got my Fit in 2006 but the little car was so much fun that I had to go crazy, spend money and bust my knuckles to create a miniature monster... Living where you do I think you would benefit more from higher octane than someone where there isn't the kind of hills you drive up and down... The ECU will increase the ignition advance and under a load you will need less throttle to go the same speed than you would with 87 octane..
Raised tolls, raised sales tax and upped gas taxes, two words for you SB, well, let's make it 3 words SB........
- Pat Quinn and DEMOCRAT
I'm liking the raise in temps, my average is nearing 41 mpg
- Pat Quinn and DEMOCRAT
I'm liking the raise in temps, my average is nearing 41 mpg