Oh man nooooo! Oh, i looked up and found a used head on ebay for you a while back, 200 bucks... not bad.. jesus im so sorry to hear all that. We need to start bothering honda to make this a f*ckin recall. I'll go talk to my friends at the local dealer and see whats up.
Thats such a bummer man. Now I'm starting to wonder about this car. And seriously hoping that copper spray a gasket can be promising for the future. I'll make sure to report back. Paul, if you need any help hit me up.
​​​​​

damn that sucks. hopefully after the head replacement you will be set. im sure it goes without saying, but id use new plugs and consider practicing my "single use" idea. denso ik22 (4) packs are usually cheaper on ebay around $20 vs buying singles.

i definitely appreciate the pictures. thanks for taking the time. its great to be able to see the internals. if you are able to, pics of all angles of the old head would be awesome...as we dont really have any of our gen on the site. that way maybe we can get a better understanding of what might be going on internally with both the spark plugs and also the valves (residue, blow-by, pcv seepage effects). pcv wise, so far with my catch can i think im primarily catching fuel. im not sure if its a normal amount, but perhaps the valves are not getting as gunked up from oil as i assumed. also see if you notice any cracks on the head that may cause the plug loosening syndrome.

this type of thing sucks, but realistically pretty much every car make and model has its quirks i guess. i just wish with our cars it was something easier and cheaper to take care of, like idk..the glove box door breaks or something.. not the heart of the car.

That alternator looks so easy to change like that. You might consider that, not that you want to spend any more money.

I have the head in my trunk. When I get the car back this weekend, I will inspect it and take as many photos as I can. I'll make a separate thread and take requests.

I'm not sure yet. My uncle is the mechanic that is working on it, so I will be getting a family rate, but I'll try to find out what the normal rate for something like this is. I'll also have a complete list of what was done, which I'll share. My goal is gather as much knowledge as possible on these issues and share them to help anyone who wants to fix this on their own.

To avoid this issues, we are going to tackle the sparkplugs in 2011 Fit Sport Auto with 64k miles next week. Looking for longest-lasting, no maintenance solution.

I think we will use the Denso 3401 (Iridium Long life = skj20dr-m13) which is on the recommended list at densoautoparts.com. Considered the Iridium TT but those just seem to be lower quantity of exotic metal and I only saw one person here using the TT. Not looking for "power." Use in northern environments so frigid winter and hot summers.

We will clean the threads, consider a drop of blue threadlocker, tighten to around 15ft lbs. Before starting, we will buy the three clip types for the top panel recommended here.

The blue threadlocker requires a day to set. Is there a problem running the engine during that period?

EDIT- Or maybe 20ft lbs with a small amount of anti-seize per Pyts' photo below. Note: some spark plug makers mandate no anti-seize on shiny threads as they are already treated.

If it says to wait a day to set, you goooottttaaa. Much like silicone (high temp rtv could substitute thread locker if you make sure not to glob on too much n get it in the cylinder) if you dont wait the *full* 24 hours, you're wasting your time. man, fuck. Noticed oil on one of your cylinders... This probably means i need an oil catch too. Such bs. Oh that i had type R money.. still, drives nice n its not full of styrofoam like a vw.

*and whats this about clips?

haha. see first page of this thread SiXiam

https://www.fitfreak.net/forums/2nd-...ml#post1420387

I'll check out the clippy thing a little later. In the mean time I got news, gents. Spent 45 minutes at the dealer talkin to a honda service manager about our spark plugs specifically. Honda, of course, aint gonna help us, but me n him are gonna become well aquainted. ​​​​​For everyone whose had plugs come loose, please let me know what plugs you had that did. I'm cross referencing the the PNs and comparing the specifications and materials used to that of the OEM plugs based on my own vin. If you send me yours I can head to honda with a list to see if the plugs vary based on year, month, and manufacturing plant. My service manual says theyre the same HOWEVER it also specifies the torque at 13 footpounds. The print out I was JUST handed from honda specifies 20 footpounds and instructs use of anti seize!!!


https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.fit...1dfe91d2dc.jpg
when i finish my word document logging characteristics of plugs I'll.. post it up on here somehow
​​​​​​

​​​​​​*EDIT: 1, ohh those clips! Definitely. Theyre dirt cheap on rockauto.. i rep that site a lot cuz brand name parts for cheap.. Theyre crazy expensive through dealers. I'm actually going to try and, with a sh*t eating grin, heat weld some more plastic onto those and see if I can make em more substancial since that cowl comes off so much. Stupid but fun.

2, as for the anti-seize, I checked the ik22 plugs ive been running, same materials as the stock plugs, just a different plug head/gap. They loosened with anti seize, hopefully thats the reason.
you can find a wealth of information on plugs Here

Somewhat frustrating that a decade on, the loose spark plug issues have not been resolved. . .

I can't find these clips on rockauto. I tried the part numbers referenced on page 1 and a few keywords (e.g. clip). If you have easy access to the part numbers on rockauto that would be helpful as we could get everything shipped in one box. If numbers are not handy, don't worry. Thanks.

I coulda swore they had other clippies, but they do stock the dorman clones of the grill and splash shield push ins https://www.rockauto.com/en/catalog/honda,2012,fit,1.5l+l4,1502550,body,bumper+cover+r etainer,690
My apologies..
i'll take a look around to see if i can actually help

When I changed the plugs on my 09 I saw no signs that the plugs were ever loose. Coil packs looked more wore than the plugs.
That said I'm glad I changed mine and torqued it to what I felt comfortable. This forum made me sweat bricks :ohnoes:
16 days of owning the car then I changed them. Sounds funny now.

At 7years and 107K my #4 plug was loose enough to have blowby on the coil. Here's the vin:
JHMGE88219C004685

I replaced with NGK IZFRK13 and tightened to 13 lbft with no anti-seize. 2 years later and 37K no issues, but I think changing every 50K might be in order here...

I'll try 20lbft with anti-seize at that point. (ETA: or not, depends on how these come out, but I don't think I'll wait for it to be 214K...)

Head replacement costs
 

I got my car back today, and it drives a little better and sounds a lot better. Here is a list of everything that was done:

Engine Head replaced with a used head
4x new Spark Plugs
Valve Adjustment
New belt
New Lost motion Springs
New Head Gasket

The total cost was $1,725.00 for all of this work. The shop attempted to rebuild my head at a machine shop, but the threaded insert wouldn't seat properly. My uncle told me it took the shop half a day to take apart the engine and over a full work day reassembling it. (This shop mainly works on higher end vehicles, so there may have been unfamiliarity with the Honda Fit, but I know it would've taken me a lot longer to do this work in my carport.) I'm hoping this fixes all of my engine issues so I can work on more fun projects on my car.

Did a bit more "research" on this. Nothing is very clear or easy or conclusive.

** Maybe we will NOT use locktite for the sparkplugs (see below). Probably trying the revised torque spec of 20 lbf with very small amount of anti-seize as noted by @Pyts above. Indeed that does seems rather high, maybe analogous to roughly 25 lbf dry.

** Bridge engineer who works with lots of bolts said ultra-important to clean threads in head before installation to get valid torque specs.

CLUES FROM DENSO
The Denso site indicates the 3401 (SKJ20DR-M13)
"seat type - flat"
"hex size - 16.0
I think the KJ indicates thread diameter / hex size (14x16.0)

Denso seems to indicate in this page Spark Plug Installation | DENSO Auto Parts

1. Plug size (14mm FLAT SEAT) Aluminum Head (15-22 lb-ft)

2 ."Note: The installation torque values shown above apply to new spark plugs without lubricating the threads. If threads are lubricated, the torque value should be reduced by approximate 1/3 to avoid overtightening."

I suppose that "plug size" refers to thread diameter but not sure. Also "lubricating" might mean adding anti-seize. Not quite sure.
Spark Plug Part Numbering | DENSO Auto Parts

LOCKTITE UNRESOLVED QUESTIONS
- Can't reliably recalculate torque?
- Performance falls significantly in "hot strength" and "heat ageing" per old data sheet below?
- Potential problem removing spark plugs in the future?
- Potential increase in electrical resistance to ground?
- Galvanic corrosion impact unknown?
- Thermal insulation runs plugs hotter?

http://www.chiptronics.com.my/brands...age/242-EN.pdf
https://web.archive.org/web/20131104...1antisieze.pdf

this is exactly the kind of information im working to provide through comparing the specifications of plugs used by individuals who experienced plug looseness/ejection to that of stock spark plugs.
if enough accounts of this issue are provided to me I may be able to make a better case when talking to honda about the seriousness of this issue. The document I've been writing up has proven to be quite the undertaking as between manufacturers NGK and DENSO there are differences regarding information provided in regards to plug composition (NGK doesnt disclose as much). I'm also attempting to explain each specification EX: reach, heat range, electrode shape ect... so that everyone can be on the same page here and have better comprehension of plugs to potentially yield their own information pertaining to this issue.
for a dumb guy who technically didnt graduate highschool, this is an undertaking and, well, this may take a little bit and not be perfect (despite my efforts). So please sit tight and be patient.
the vins are just one part of the arguement against us that I was given. Making each stock plug a variable while assuming that our aftermarket replacements are flawed makes it a lot harder for us to say they screwed up.. even if we cant win here, hopefully we can resolve the issue for ourselves.

as a show of good faith heres my vin: JHMGE8G32CC031721

​​​​​the porcelain does run through the plug to the tip so I wouldnt worry about electrical resistance from thread locker, however I would worry about heat transfer between the plug and head, which is why I leaned toward the copper head gasket spray. It also claims that it serves to prevent seizing. I still dont know if its a good idea.
i certainly take no issue with the idea of cleaning out threading on the cylinder side. Its easy enough to make a chaser by taking an angle grinder to an old plug (although the ceramic innards do make me nervous). There would still be the issue of rigging something to get the junk outta the cylinders. A proper compressor with a blower tip may do the job, but lacking a compressor I may try to use the exhaust port from a clean strong shop vac... for thread tapping some old timers just leave the one plug out and run the car for a minute to pop out the shavings, but since we're talking goo...
anyways. Solid contribution man, and I appreciate it. I'll check out your links in a bit

Edit: as a fun little add on here, one of the young mechanics gave me a bit of a hard time about using thread locker under the premise of getting debris in the cyls. I asked him if the dirt was worse than an ejection. He then decided to leave the conversation to the grown-ups. It made me laugh at least.

Thanks @Pyts .

Below is a live video from a bridge engineer who works with high-rated bolts frequently. Video is focused on engine head bolts and is a bit stream-of consciousness so not too formal. Lots of the same issues for spark plugs.

This guy is good at taking tough technical info and making practical sense. A few super helpful links. It is getting me to a "decent" level of awareness on torque, clamping force, failure, lubrication, etc. quickly.

This is all very interesting. I have a 2011 and I had a plug blown out at 56k miles and luckliy got a brand new head under warranty. Im now at 184K and have not had a problem since but I am wondering now if I should check my plugs.

​​​​​​those sobs :mad: i actually read somewhere while digging (it can be a headache) that there was a tsb for certain second gen fits for the spark plugs. It claimed that the factory didnt torque them properly. The given solution, as I recall, was for the owner to torque them. Did you buy the car new?

Yes. Brand New in Jan 2011. After I crashed my 07. And I was following the maintenance schedule. It was suspicious to me at the time that it happened right after i took it in for an oil change and inspection where they dumped injector cleaner in it also I think. Wasn't too relevant because it got taken care of regardless and they were pretty good about it. But it adds a lot of interesting context to the situation.

Yeah i bought it new in January of 2011 after i totaled my 07, and I was following the maintenance schedule. It happened right after i had taken it in for service in fact, and I was always suspicious if maybe they touched something that made it happen. But this gives a lot more context to the situation. Seems like Im just lucky it happened under warranty. They were really good about it and it was all covered and I had a loaner for like 2 weeks. I haven't had the plugs touched since then so I have been thinking maybe I need to since they said they were supposed to get changed at 100k according to Honda. Now I know Im gonna try and be super careful about how it gets done.

Yeah, they need changing. About 30K ago. Also the valves need adjusting. Your maintenance minder probably flagged these at 100K which would have been too soon with the new head (and new plugs I assume). It won't flag them again until 200K.

You're marginal on the plugs failing. Normal failure is misfire. They probably were torqued to the new spec, correctly, when the head was replaced so ejecting a plug is less likely.

Valve adjustment is necessary on these cars even if they aren't excessively noisy. Burned exhaust valves could result from waiting too long.

Just replaced spark plugs 2011 Fit Sport auto. Details at our maintenance log

Why does it always seem to be plug 3?

No idea. I have seen a few posts speculating the 2 & 3 cylinders might run a bit hotter as they are in center of block and the nearby exhaust manifold.

Im still workin on that doc on and off, mostly off cuz ive been busy, but it aint forgotten.
retorqued the plugs with the copper head sealant. So far so good, she purrs. :D

Mine made it to 94k miles when I started to notice some rough idle and then it threw a light for a misfire. Got some plugs and dove in. #2 and #3 came out just sticking a socket and extension on them. 1 and 4 were still tight.

X25,
what plugs did u use and anything on the threads.
also did u torque them down.
thanks

Whatever the stock replacement NGK irridiums are. Nothing on the threads. I torqurd them with my calibrated mechanics arm (I have done a lot of spark plugs over the years. I ran these a bit tighter than I usually would).

106k miles now and no issues so far.

Hey guys, not trying to thread jack, but this seems like a pretty active are on the site. I have an 09 sport. Car went into limp mode a few days ago. Have misfire in 3 cylinders as well as lean code. I've been reading about all kinds of problems. I replaced the plugs (3 of the 4 were not as snug as they should be) and now the car wont even idle for more than 20-30 seconds before it shuts off. I did a compression test, that came back good. Before I pull the VC and tackle valve adjustment, I would like to test fuel pressure. Have any of you done this? Is there an inline spot I can use or do I need to disconnect from fuel rail? I also knoe coil packs are big problems with these cars, but I am wondering how often injectors go bad.

Any info and input appreciated, as I am desperately trying to get this thing back to "normal" so I can trade it in and be rid of it forever.

-Garrett

Limp mode..

first: Drain the oil and go through it. Look for shavings, plastic chunks, whatever.

I wouldnt do *anything* until thats done.

once thats squared away we can move on to quick tricks for testing electronic components.

EDIT: to make it easier you might want to pick up a 99 cent strainer, like for pasta..

I already did a compression test, and it came back nearly perfect. I have ZERO weird noises...

Cant have zero knock with a 3 cyl misfire im sure, but what im really drivin at here is the plastic. The last two times, which were the only times i've dealt with multi cil misfires that result in no starts, it was a snapped timing chain. Now, it wasnt on our car so I cant say with complete certainty that it has plastic formed onto a metal tensioner for the chain.. but im pretty darned confident.

if you really do want to skip that and shoot for computer failure/multi injector/coil failure.. then a 5 buck spark plug test light will do for checking the coils. Just pop em off and insert the test light, its just a short plug wire with a light.

for the injectors, you could rig these with quick disconnects, ring terminals, and (I'd recommend) 14g awg wire.. all available from the local auto parts place.
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.fit...6d8d44ba74.jpg

I've got a mini female quick disconnect on there for testing pins and such, you'd want a regular size. Just stick the tip of a pocket knife or nail file, whatever into the female to loosen it a bit. That way they wont get stuck on the male terminals on the injectors. (For the fit you might need to adapt this, dont know, so check the injectors first to match the terminal size)
the ring sides will go to the cars battery terminals or surrounding hardware, whatevers easier.

Battery already has your proper voltage and whatnot, so just like testing a relay, once powered it will click. You can also put a little fuel/seafoam ect. Into the top of the injector prior to energizing. That way you could even see atomization.. or just use longer wire and power them in place and youll likely still here the click.

as for fuel pressure, pump failure is more common than pressure regulator failure. When you turn the key in the ignition to the on position, where all the uh-oh lights come on, you will, unquestionably, hear the pump kick on for a few seconds if its working. Think its 3 seconds. Then itll shut off which is also super easy to hear, and thats verified for the fit. If you dont hear it, then you know

to my knowledge theres no inline fuel filter, just the ol screen in the tank affixed to the base of the pump, and unless you're in the boonies or buying downright sketchy gas/had the car sitting for 6 months, i wouldnt worry about fuel clogs. If its a concern, any fuel cleaner should allow the algea-like goo to go through the injectors. They essentially all function as lubes, I've tried manually scrubbing out carbon using seafoam.. no dice, so i dont see a need to be choosey about the brand.

Might be oxy-sensor.

So you are saying that the chain may have broken and the car lost timing? I am confused here.

Wouldn't I see a code on the scanner for o2 sensor though?

Thats.. exactly what I'm hoping isnt the case. The chain as you likely know, connects the crankshaft that holds up and controls the motion of your pistons to camshaft that similarly controls the opening and closing of your intake and exhaust valves.. now you may still get a tinsy bit of run time on a cylinder due to one of them having the valves in a position close enough for one cyl to still work.. momentarily.

The engine would still get spark and fuel, the pistons would still have healthy rings, and so I could imagine it possible to get decent compression, at least on the cylinders that are close to the top of their travel/close to the valves.

If it should fail, the valves no longer move, but before dying the crank is still spinning and the pistons still going up and down. That old four-stroke cycle of the pistons no longer has air when its supposed to, exhaust when its supposed to, and depending on how far those valves open up into the cylinder, they can even be hit by a piston before the car stalls.
Now, I'm really hoping this isnt the case for you (a problem that can be caused by bad luck, or overheating, potentially from low oil or coolant) but if it is, you can wind up running through all sorts of other stuff to find your problem is still unresolved. Still has unobstructed airflow up until the valves, still has spark and fuel and possibly no check engine light codes since the surrounding sensors.. should still be healthy.

I dont want to discourage you from checking other routes but would be more surprised to hear that 3 cylinders all failed despite having separate ignition coils. Do check at your discretion, but if things seem fine.. then the chain is a likely culprit. Its silly, since most vehicles with timing chains instead of timing belts are designated by the car's manufacturer as parts that dont need service, ever.

If this is the case, you'd need a new/used/remanufactured cylinder head, courtesy of ebay (found one there a while back for 2 or 300.)

the labor is.. a bit intensive, but its possible that it can be done by a first timer.

before that though, the verification would come from inspecting the engine oil. A relatively painless way to rule out or confirm a terrible thing, and always a good idea when something wild as your situation occurs.
Going back to the cause for such a failure and how heat plays in, it is important to mention that timing chains have a guide/tensioner to keep them from having slack which would allow for a whipping motion (leading to breakage) and also screw up matching the valves with the motion of the pistons. In regular ol production cars something like this happens over time as our engines just dont have the power to snap a chain with an aggressive press on the gas pedal.
Now, these guides, to deal with having a chain rubbing up against them (metal on metal just ain't okay unless the surfaces are perfectly smooth, properly sized, polished, and lubricated) will have plastic molded onto them to handle said rubbing. If the engine gets too hot for too long/too often, the plastic can become brittle and crumbly. Eventually it does crumble and fall away, allowing for that nasty slack and whipping motion that will eventually cause the failure.

whew, that was long-winded, apologies.

Pyts, I appreciate you taking the time to explain things in detail.

So yesterday I bought two new coils. I cleared the codes from the car and installed two new ones on the first two cylinders (from right to left, facing the engine. I don't know what numbers they actually are). I fired the car up, it went back into limp mode at idle, and it ran for about 30 seconds before if sputtered out. I removed the new pack from cylinder one and replaced it with the original one and then swapped the new one into cylinder 3, basically leapfrogging cylinder 2. I reinstalled, cleared the codes, and the car started up and ran perfect at idle for a few minutes. No limp mode, no CEL, no weird noises (other than a bit of valve chatter since its cold here in MD), no weird smells or smoke or anything. I was thrilled! So I drove it around the neighborhood for about 10 minutes. Everything worked perfect. No hesitating or sputtering, it shifted perfect. I parked it and let it sit for a few hours because I had other stuff to do. I went back out to button up the cowl and everything, and started it again, and the damn thing went right back into limp mode with flashing CEL, idling really rough, but still not sounding terrible.

I don't get it. How could it have run perfect for 20+ minutes and driven perfect, and then a few hours later its crap again? At least I now know the timing chain is fine and all that, but WTF??? Do I need to be looking at electrical connections? I have already visually inspected everything I can think of, but I'm not real savvy with a multi meter, not to mention I would have no idea what kind of numbers I am looking for.

This damn car is really bringing me down, and I desperately want to be rid of this car. Might even make me steer away from Honda from here on out to be honest. The fact that they refuse to issue recalls on these obvious issues makes me no want to ever give them a dime again.

Sounds like an electrical issue.

How many miles on the car? What was the condition of original coils and original spark plugs?

If the plugs were worn, then the coils have to work very hard to produce spark. If the plugs leaked and the coils look wet or smoky, then they may have suffered from heat. Either way can kill coils.

Also get your battery load tested at a local store as low voltage can cause wonky performance.

You should buy a DMM and do a voltage drop test under load to see if a bad connection or ground is bad; it is very cheap and easy to do and you can find a beginner tutorial in my posts to get you started.

You might clean out major electrical connections and refit (e.g. from battery to alternator to grounds to computers to ignition system to grounds). Then redo the voltage drop test.

Good thread on Fit coil packs

https://www.fitfreak.net/forums/fit-...e-answers.html