Ohhh that's a fun one.

I'll start looking for some stuff for you. PM SB he has some access to some SAE documents that I do not at the moment.

You should have a PM from me shortly as well.

There's different forms of pre-ignition/detonation that most enthusiasts myself included lump together under the moniker of "knock"

The one most of us are talking about is where you have multiple spontaneous flame fronts form due to heat and pressure instead of spark setting it off from one central spot.

 

And there you go again! That is a myth. You should have just said, "You shouldn't put E85 in a stock Fit" and leave it at that. I can run E85 in a Fit and heck anybody could run a tankful of E85 in a Fit and would be fine but, quite obviously, you shouldn't do it on purpose unless you know what you are doing.

Lol, I'm a troll? I can only take that as a compliment to my argument that you resorted to calling me a troll.

The first study didn't monitor AFRs and in the NOx emissions chart the emissions shot up for Hydrous Ethanol, a clear sign of running lean. Although they blamed ignition timing:
"The increase in NOX emissions when using hydrous ethanol is
due to advanced ignition timing applied to obtain higher power
output"
But the other results didn't show anything as drastic as running lean, they still made barely more power and the efficiency wasn't that much more than the 78/22 blend, weird.

It looks like a fairly straight forward attempt at comparing the two fuel blends commonly used in Brazil. Not very applicable to the pump gas we use in the US.

The second study quoted quite a few studies from the 80's, for a 2001 study. And the results they had were extremely high:
"2. Ethanol addition results in an increase in brake power, brake thermal efficiency, volumetric efficiency and fuel consumption by about 8.3%, 9.0%, 7% and 5.7% mean average values, respectively. In addition, the brake specific fuel consumption and equivalence air–fuel ratio decrease
by about 2.4% and 3.7% mean average value, respectively"
WHAT? That is unbelievably high!

 

You are the first and only person on my ignore list. Cheers.

If you run E85 in a stock Fit you WILL throw CELs and you will be running dangerously lean.

 

As far as fuel consumption it depend on if the car has learned fuel trims. 14.7 lambda is what the ecu looks for but with 10 percent ethanol the fuel lambda is 14.2 which is 3.5 percent more fuel. E15 would be over 5 percent more fuel needed to reach lambda. With loads over 70 percent it would lean out but would not run lambda unless MBT was reached.

They are testing E15 but at a 50 percent fail rate for all cars and light trucks and another 16 percent for 2007 and newer, cars are not made for higher ethanol blends.

 

Lamda at Stoichometric is 1.0 not 14.7(:1) which is Stoich on the Gasoline scale which would be 9.8:1 on the E85 scale. You are right that for every 10% Ethanol you add you need about 3.5% more fuel flow by volume for peak power. The MBT doesn't change the AFRs as much as the fueling.

DiamondStarMonsters is right about a stock non-FFV to a certain point. But I was getting tired of DSM's crap and anything that opposed him would have pissed him off at that point .

People have run E85 in a non-FFV and the CEL comes and goes away as the ECU compensates for the extra fueling over time but it can come back if the fuel pressure drops. The ECU in EFI is designed to compensate for extra fuel, +-25% but it varies, adjusting the Closed Loop is part of the compensating. The biggest problem with running Ethanol blends has always been fueling volume limits and parts not being Ethanol approved. Approved is the key word here. If you graduate the blends from say regular gasoline to E20 then E30 you would be fine and not get a CEL unless the fueling system was clogged or damaged etc eg the fuel filter clogging is a common problem for the initial switch over. E30 is the maximum that you should ever run in an unmodified non-FFV, safely. I don't recommend trying anything above regular gasoline myself unless you've upgraded the injectors and fuel pump and preferable are tuning it aswell.

In other words: kids, don't try this at home!

Fuel Economy is variable in the realworld drive, a straight section of road back to back is the only way to compare 1:1 and that is very difficult to do as you would need to drain and pour in several gallons of fuel for each test and have a tool like a scangauge to measure fuel consumption. In general just assume BTUs=MPG for Ethanol blends and Ethanol has 2/3 of the BTUs. Don't waste a precious resource like Ethanol to save money. The stations tend to market E85 as a premium replacement $ even though most FFVs run regular craptane so it's usually way overpriced per BTU compared to what it cost to grow, distill, and deliver. I know I said that Ethanol is more efficient but when you are talking MPG just assume the worst. I use a .85 factor compared to Premium myself, simply because it's worth it, E85 is 96 Octane and as good as C16 in a built car. The only good reasons to run higher Ethanol blends is to support your local economy idea or for high/safe HP on pump gas. It's not worth it to save money in most cases unless you live in the heart of the cornbelt near a lot of E85 stations where you can get it cheaper per mile than Regular Gasoline. Here it's $3.39 for E85(probably spring blend) and $3.60-$3.70 for Regular, and I'm in KY the edge of the Corn Belt. My next car will be FFV whether it came that way or not. You can quote me on that.

SB, do you have a link handy for the EPA 15% Ethanol testing? It would be interesting to see which vehicles failed. Especially as some US cars have FFV versions in Brazil since the concept of a FFV was really revolutionized in the 90's. I've heard of a few anecdotal cases where something as simple as injector o-rings failed and leaked fuel in the engine bay one case I know was an Integra. I only heard that the 2001-2007 vehicles were going to get approval. So a 16% fail rate was acceptable? :\

I am waiting for the EPA study on E85 compatibility . Just you wait.

 

I'm NA and bored right now (but not willing to boost quite yet despite having all necessary parts) I have the necesary equipment to tune for e85 and injectors. The real question then is what parts need to be swapped so they don't get eaten by the e85 monster. I know there's a rubber hose that feeds the rail, what else?

 

When I get to the point where I have the need or convenience to switch to E85 to reach my goals I will be changing from a returnless feed system to a return style system to allow for an adjustable fuel pressure regulator and a larger pump to accomodate the volume of fuel at the boost pressures you'll now be able to get away with. So this will require you to buy a few fittings, some line and to modify the stock fuel pump hanger assembly.

The bandaid interim fix to run your T28 on E85 would be to simply use a boost-a-pump to up the voltage at the pump to help support your new flow needs.

Also, bear in mind that ethanol and gasoline have different flow properties and the fluid used to test injectors more closely resembles gasoline.

There have been wide discrepancies, as much as 300cc/min in the larger 2150cc FIC low-impedance injectors, so I would make sure you have at least 15% more capacity than you would ever need to get around this.

This is why I was using 1450cc/min injectors (rated at 43.5psi) at higher than stock base fuel pressure with two re-wired pumps seeing 14.5v at the terminals. A walbro 255lph HP (gss341) and a bosch 044 plumbed in parallel to provide the volume I needed at the combined fuel pressures I was seeing. 38psi boost + 50psi base pressure is just shy of 90psi fuel pressure.

I was planning on PTFE lines, an aeromotive AFPR, 850cc/min injectors and something like a Bosch 044 for the Fit which as I mention is very similiar to what I have been using in the race car to much success.

 

The Senate just passed to end the .45 cents subsidy Senate vote marks start of end for ethanol subsidies | Reuters

So that ends that.

 

Not really. Most of the tax credit was for blenders which are usually refineries anyway. It won't eliminate E85 if that's what you're thinking but oil refineries might lose some profit margin on it. Eg if they have a standard gas pump converted for E85 they need to premix the ethanol w/ gasoline before they put it into the tank. There are blender pumps that can get gasoline from the regular gasoline tank and a separate tank for the Ethanol. Those ones can get their ethanol cheaper from the plant instead of paying margins to a refinery. Not personal info, just something I heard from a retailer.

And the tariff removal means we can get Brazilian Sugar Cane Ethanol at market price.

Honestly I wouldn't mind the removal of the tax credit and the tariff at all if they would still fund next gen biofuel research and continue to provide grants for blender pumps. There was an alternate plan proposed that was quite acceptable given the situation.

 

Will using e85 just once cause engine failure? I did not pay attention yesterday at the pump and I used e85 as opposed to the 93oct that I always use.

Im a little scared, The car seems to be functioning just fine.. I just want to make sure.

 

Probably not. I would keep the tank near full (refill repeatedly at about 3/4 tank) for a while to dilute the alcohol until it's gone. Or, find a friend with an e85 car and siphon it out (need a LONG hose) and give most of it to him, then refill.

 

it would benefit the US economy because we would not be depending on other nations, since we would produce the ethanol here in the US.

 

Except it takes more energy to produce the same energy. Only government contributions to the conversion make it economic.

 

corn prices will go up cause of one thing the fed they want a cut of all action cause thats how they make there money tell your politician to make 50 to 75 thousand a year with no kick backs and watch how all these prices drop and e85 hey if it works great but tell the fed to not raise the tax unless it benefits farmers and there land, and not there pockets.( the feds are greedy little spoiled children who want it all and could care less how they get it)

this is my opinion

btw
when we were a new nation these guys had to work like the rest of us,would love to see those days again

 

Just to throw a wrench in the works:

Al Gore Mea Culpa: Support for Corn-Based Ethanol Was a Mistake


Personally, I hate ethanol. It hurts gas mileage greatly on the Fit in stock configuration.

In Arkansas, we have 10% Ethanol at most gas stations. When I was in high school, I could break 45 MPG mixed with no ethanol Regular octane (there was a gas station next to the high school that had 0 Ethanol...was always a tad more expensive.). But with 10% Ethanol gas (Regardless of octane, whether it be Regular, Plus, or Premium) I am lucky if I can break 32 MPG with total highway driving. I don't have anything other than my mileage figures to back that up, but...still says something.

EDIT: Sorry, that was non-E85 gas but just throwing those figures out there.

 

Chemistry backs up the losds in mpg when gas is diluted with ethanol: the heat of combustion for ethanol laced gasoline is about 5% less than straight gasoline. Less energy in the fuel, the less powser and mpg.
We see this all the time traveling thru VA, which mandates EthOl laced gas comoared to NC which doesn't.

 

NC finally dcreed up to 10% ethanol in gasoline and we have many years of 'pure' gasoline mpg to compare mpg. So far results are showing about 5% less mpg and gas costs ore. ,./

 

What do you know about theese E85 converters? do they works would the car get more power ? or is this really just a waste
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iXaj...ature=youtu.be

 

things made out of something called aluminum

 

I have two curiosities:
1. just what are those 'converters' converting the ethanol content to ? Ethane and water ? As long as the water stays in the fuel there's no gain - and likely a loss due to loss in combustion temp from heating the water.
2. what does injector pressure have to do with ethanol conversion? injectors ae designed to operate near or at the maximum pressure drop of the injector to increase spray properties.increasing injector pressure has al most nothing to do with increased power as the pressure drop across the injector increases with increasing inlet pressure.
BTW gasoline laced with 10 % ethanol will have the same flow properties as gasoline. the flow properties of pure ethanol are not much different than gasoline and at a 9:1 ratio the difference is practically indifferent.
the solution to havivg ethanol free gas is not putting the ethanol there to begin with.