arguments against hypermiling

[x98myers7]

has anyone considered the affects of hypermiling on your vehicle? mostly in the context of "hardcore" techiques like FAS and P&G.

i'm not some troll, i'd really like to have a reasonable discussion about this with guys on here getting 50+ average who employ these techniques. i'm always on the fence with trying it but i always find that there are actually no benefits to it, whatsoever.



why bother if in a year/two you have to replace your starter from heatsoak/overuse and it costs double the amount you saved in fuel over that time?

what about the clutch? P&G requires drivers to cycle the clutch a few hundred times more than an average driver. you'd arguably have to replace the clutch 3, 4 even 5 times more often than a "normal" driver?

what about the battery? you're constantly draining it and rarely charging it.... lets say you replace the lead cell OEM battery with a $90+ deep cycle? how long will it take you to make up for that $$?

what about the ignition switch failing from overuse? not only would you have to replace the switch, but all the key cylinder locks as well.


i'd argue that over an average 5 year life of a vehicle, you will spend FAR more in maintenance than hypermiling could ever save you. IMO, you'd be FAR better off simply:

• driving 5 below the speed limit
• accelerating slowly
• use DFCO when stopping

i just don't get it guys.... what's the point. am i missing something

[wdb]

In general you have a reasonable argument. There are discussions of this sort over on cleanmpg.com, just be aware that that is the home of hypermiling and people have, well, a little bit of bias. Even so you should be able to find more information there.

Originally Posted by x98myers7

i'd argue that over an average 5 year life of a vehicle, you will spend FAR more in maintenance than hypermiling could ever save you. IMO, you'd be FAR better off simply:

• driving 5 below the speed limit
• accelerating slowly
• use DFCO when stopping

Add a couple of things to your list:

• coasting on downhill sections
• inflating tires above MFG recommended levels

Then I think you've got it.

I tried P&G and FAS and it's a lot of work. That, plus the possible additional wear and tear on the drivetrain and other parts gnawed at me, so I stopped. I still have the same goal, a consistent 40MPG average on commuting tankfuls, but I'm going about it without P&G or FAS. I have slowed down a bit, and I'm doing aero stuff (Beatrush underpanel so far, maybe something in the rear too if I ever get the time), and I may toy around with grille blocks in the winter. But these days my primary driving technique for maximizing economy is called "CC" (Cruise Control).

[pb and h]

Good points and where/are still some of my concerns. I believe the proof is in the pudding and I am willing to find out if the pudding is any good.

Since attempting/starting Hypermiling 6 months ago I have driven 19073.3 miles used 362.1 gallons and spent $1258.79 with an average MPG of 52.67.

If I maintained my MPG before Hypermiling in the FIT which was about 34mpg then I would of spent $1948.01 which equates to a savings of $689.21!

If I would of kept my civic hatch with a high compression gsr swap averaging around 28mpg I would of spent $2365.44 which equates to a saving of $1106.65!!!

The real number of value is the $689.21 saved in 6 months

What else have I saved on:

Tire wear - I am at 43K+ on the stock tires with 5/32" tread depth
Brake Pads
Oil Life
Oil Filter life
Tranny fluid life
Less wear and tear on the tranny
Less wear and tear on the engine

Possible Damage:

Clutch - from what I have read this is negligible if any, technique is key here
Ignition - these things last a long time but time will tell
Starter - as stated above
Battery - I have heard of several people with dead batteries in the Fit when the cold weather hit but they just recharged it and plan on buying a deep cell or watching the voltage. Again, for this time will tell.

What have I lost on:

Time - all the way up to 30minutes one way

Other problems that have occured:

Safety - driving so slow that people beep, swerve and some(yes even a prius) have almost clipped my front end by simply passing me. I have chosen not to drive that slow any more.

I have been through my max mpg phase and I am trying to simplify things with WAI, FAS switch, I am now trying to find my optimal P&G cycle with speed and time for the commute and my next mod will be the under aero tray for the front and rear.

The sad part is the gearing of the FIT. It is an mpg killer.

[x98myers7]

the clutch and ignition seem to be the big points of contention for me

the ignition switch is just not designed for the kind of cycling that is required for P&G.

the clutch springs are a wear item. by simply engaging the clutch, they will wear out. same as with the throwout bearing. i would say those are what are going to take the beating... not the clutch disc.


i didn't even hint at the time, mental and physical stress required to hypermile. IMO, these three things are enough NOT to hypermile. commuting is stressful enough. i can't imagine CHOOSING to deal with the stress and road rage that goes along with driving slowly. i understand that you have to choose your route carefully... and that does go a long way to being a "responsible" hypermiler.

what about the cost of the fuel wasted by the thousands of drivers you force to slow down to not hit you?

[pb and h]

I agree about the clutch and ignition. I will find out. Others have stated over 300,000miles on the same clutch, starter, and ignition. I find that hard to believe.

As far as the driving techniques, I have experienced much less stress with hypermiling. I am not in a hurry, I am not racing to the next light or around some one, I am not speedin(no speeding tickets FTW!) and no one is going slower than me

As far as other drivers are concerned, they should understand(after all they have a license right?) that the speed limit is just that. People are not required to drive the speed limit or above. Most road ways have a speed range typically in my area 45-60mph on the interstate. So, people driving 45mph should be given the ability to drive safely at that speed and not have some jackass swerve around them. From what I have seen and encountered, it is people that are in a hurry(didn't plan well or leave in time) that get upset with a person driving within the posted speed limit range. Then you have those crazy people that think they can exceed the speed limit in the far right lane.

[hotpot]

On one of my trips I drafter for almost 300 miles behind semi-trucks and sometimes I would be behind drivers that get paranoid (probably on speed) and switch lanes trying to shake me off. Sometimes the truckers would drive aggressively and it was quite dangerous trying to follow them. As a result I had a few chips in the paint and only got 40mpg..?..

I have also tried the pulse and glide using DFCO and ended up with 34mpg with mixed city and highway. So now I just coast a lot and drive the speed limit. Every other day I get people who swerve in front of when I’m coasting to a red light.

[Sa211050]

Originally Posted by hotpot

On one of my trips I drafter for almost 300 miles behind semi-trucks and sometimes I would be behind drivers that get paranoid (probably on speed) and switch lanes trying to shake me off. Sometimes the truckers would drive aggressively and it was quite dangerous trying to follow them. As a result I had a few chips in the paint and only got 40mpg..?..

I have also tried the pulse and glide using DFCO and ended up with 34mpg with mixed city and highway. So now I just coast a lot and drive the speed limit. Every other day I get people who swerve in front of when I’m coasting to a red light.

Lol, i get the same thing. Ill never understand why people get in front of you, just to be one space closer to the light. Its not like youre going that slow in normal traffic, if theres a light, why not just coast and save gas.

[pb and h]

Hurry, I must get to the light first! WTF for! I just don't understand people especially with the way the economy is. So what that gas is cheap now, save money while you can and you can have it on a rainy day, gas will not be cheap for ever.

[pcs0snq]

My only addition to this is DON'T do it if your a lazy SOB and know you will not take the time to learn how to do it with skill. It's not easy to learn all the BEST methods that make it work and not hurt the car unless you spend the time READING how and asking when confused and practicing it......

I think most of the terminology coined by Wayne and his Hybrid cronies on CleanMPG, that is blindly used to describe these methods is at BEST a poor choice of English and help lead to some of the confusion. For example:

To call shutting off the ICE Internal Combustion Eng (not a Wayne term) and coasting FAS Forced Auto Stop is 100% stupid use of English.

Forced and Auto are a totally contradiction of terms. There is nothing Automatic at all about it in a Honda FIT engine stop when running.

I stoped posting over there after it was clear there MO (hiddend most of the time) was to promote Hybrids and that's it. Anytime a discussion was started that showed good results with other ICE cars relative to a Perius or Insight or other developing technolgy, it noramally ended in a pile on declaring it not worthy or as good as what they do. Most don't challange the click but I did. Before you get your shorts all knotted up, I'm talking about the core original users and not the many Fit users and regular users that I helped with stuff, like the switch used to kill the fuel pump and engine...... and Shawns tire pressure adventures.

Never been one to follow the leader.

[TaffetaWhite]

Originally Posted by pb and h

As far as other drivers are concerned, they should understand(after all they have a license right?) that the speed limit is just that. People are not required to drive the speed limit or above. Most road ways have a speed range typically in my area 45-60mph on the interstate. So, people driving 45mph should be given the ability to drive safely at that speed and not have some jackass swerve around them. From what I have seen and encountered, it is people that are in a hurry(didn't plan well or leave in time) that get upset with a person driving within the posted speed limit range. Then you have those crazy people that think they can exceed the speed limit in the far right lane.

Exactly! People that did not plan well or leave on time. A half hour drive is a half hour drive, even if you are running fifteen minutes late. And that is NOT my fault, other people's poor planning is not my fault. Or your fault.

The highway is NOT a race track. We all do NOT have sponsors and a pit crew. And we don't a prize for lasting 24 hours or making 500 laps.

I want to get from point A to point B as safely and as efficiently as possible. Slower means I have a lot more time to react.

The maximum speed limit is not the maximum speed limit. The maximum speed limit is whatever is SAFE for the conditions. And a perfect example was a few years back, on my way from somewhere, in the fog.

Most people were slowing down a bit, but some weren't. They were charging through the fog as if it was a clear day. And, up ahead, there it was...lined up cars. There had been an accident farther down and the cars had to stop for the accident to be cleared.

Couldn't see the accident from where the cars stopped. And it was totally Twilight Zone because I pulled off toward the center of the road, out of the lane, and walked to the front...and there were just cars stopped in a line.

No visible accident or police or flashing lights. Just cars stopped in the middle of the road.

And, like I said about people going too fast? As I was walking towards the front of the line and on my way back to my car, you could hear....

SCREEEEEECH

CRASH

SCREEEEEECH

CRASH

As car after car after car ran into the last car of the line. Only to be hit themselves by the next car going too fast.

Was I hit? Nope. I pulled over enough towards the center so as not to be hit. And was lucky that no one drove along there and hit me.

Driving slowly in that case saved my car. The car(s) in front me too. And all of us people who were in the cars could have been hurt, with all that banging around.

If these other people think being 15 minutes late is a problem, imagine how cranky they'll be when they cause a pile up from driving too fast, wrecking their car, injuring themselves, injuring someone else, being sued, and having insurance rates that are crazy high.

[Nabisco]

Speed limits are set for many reasons. However driving with the flow of traffic, keeping a gap in-front of you, helps to alleviate the grid lock. In traffic you will find that during the busy hours traffic isn't moving at the speed of the limit posted.

Those driving habits of hypermiling are extreme to say the least and will definitely cause premature wear of the parts you have mentioned.

I can understand driving conservatively and coasting wherever necessary however, this is a Honda and it is designed for reliability AND fuel economy.
When you alter your driving to the extremes such as those, don't expect the parts to last.

I drive conservatively most of the time and sometimes spirited. Why invest your money into a car if you are not going to enjoy it? This is just my .02

[x98myers7]

Originally Posted by TaffetaWhite

<fog crash rant>

this thread wasn't intended to be an argument of driving slow or running people off the road who aren't driving the speed limit or determining what is "safe" driving. i'd rather avoid that debate.

the bottom line purpose of hypermiling is to SAVE MONEY. so, that's what i want to discuss. i simply believe all the "hardcore" guys fail to consider the strain severe hypermiling techniques put on their vehicles.

[blythe]

Originally Posted by x98myers7

this thread wasn't intended to be an argument of driving slow or running people off the road who aren't driving the speed limit or determining what is "safe" driving. i'd rather avoid that debate.

the bottom line purpose of hypermiling is to SAVE MONEY. so, that's what i want to discuss. i simply believe all the "hardcore" guys fail to consider the strain severe hypermiling techniques put on their vehicles.

I'd say there's another bottom line purpose of hypermiling to save the environment. But frankly, having to replace major components of a car more frequently will generate as much pollution as your original gas usage since those parts have to be manufactured. Driving conservatively is a better bet.

[x98myers7]

well, being green is certainly a factor... but it's definitely not THE bottom line driving factor.

think about it: why has hypermiling seen such a huge surge in popularity in the past 2 years? the cost of fuel.

[Nabisco]

Driving at and below the speed limit is part of driving conservatively and can include coasting which contributes to saving fuel.

Keeping a gap in front of you helps alleviate traffic congestion.
When speed limits are determined traffic is taken into consideration along with safety.

Less traffic, less acceleration, and thus; less fuel consumed.

Hypermiling and the forms of the extreme techniques previously referred to might not be as cost effective in the long run.

A few things to consider:

*Gas prices and their stability, or lack thereof? Is gas always going to be $4.00 a gallon?

*How well can the resale value of your car be predicted?

*What about the costs of parts and their fluctuation?

I think driving conservatively and staying within the norm of operating the vehicle is ideal for the long run.

The Honda Fit, operated within its intended use, is an LEV vehicle and is very fuel efficient.

[wdb]

Originally Posted by x98myers7

well, being green is certainly a factor... but it's definitely not THE bottom line driving factor.

For the hypermiling ubergeeks and originators, THE bottom line is not sending one penny more of their money into Arab countries than absolutely necessary, because they feel that some of that money will find its way into funding terrorist activities. (I happen to agree with them.)

think about it: why has hypermiling seen such a huge surge in popularity in the past 2 years? the cost of fuel.

Absolutely correct. Funny thing is that most of the folks I know who were going gung-ho over hypermiling a few months ago have since stopped doing most of the really hardcore stuff such as P&G. I suspect they would not start using those techniques again even if the price of gas went back up to mid-2008 levels.

[pcs0snq]

I was thinking about starting a x hypermiler "backslider" thread...lol
Just week and before reading Shawn and Rich's true confessions, I started doing CC at 55 on the freeway and have even sat at a light for > 60sec with eng on. lol
Still get 45mpg
Hey at least we learned how and pushed the envelope!

[pb and h]

I tell you, I would keep going at it if I only had like at 15mile commute but unfortunately I have a 60mile commute and that damn clutch and the hills are a PITA not to mention the time.........

[wdb]

Originally Posted by pcs0snq

I was thinking about starting a x hypermiler "backslider" thread...lol

Hahaha, send me the link.

Still get 45mpg
Hey at least we learned how and pushed the envelope!

You all did a lot more than I ever did, that's for sure.

Originally Posted by pb and h

I tell you, I would keep going at it if I only had like at 15mile commute but unfortunately I have a 60mile commute and that damn clutch and the hills are a PITA not to mention the time.........

That's really what did me in, right at the beginning too. I was having fun coasting with the engine off during little excursions near home, but on my commute -- 70+ miles each way -- all the clutching and speed changes, plus the added time, was too much for me. Still, I'm getting better mileage now than I would be getting without having gone through the entire exercise, and as you both have said, that's a good thing. And I really do wonder what a little bit of creativity regarding the combination of CC and very short-cycle P&G in an automatic transmission car, all under computer control, would do for CC mileage.

[Sugarphreak]

Originally Posted by x98myers7

i just don't get it guys.... what's the point. am i missing something

Yes you are missing it, the point of hypermiling is to get the lowest fuel consumption number irregardless of safety, increased mainentance or any form of common sense.

This isn't about saving money or the environment for a lot of people. It is about having a little ticker in your signature that says you have mad hypermiling skillz.

For the rest of us who are interested in saving a couple of bucks on gas simply ensuring you have the reccomended air pressure in your tires and using controlled acceleration, cruise control on the highway and deceleration well before stop lights will provide you a very nice return of high MPG numbers.