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  #161  
Old 12-06-2010, 09:40 PM
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Now that is ridiculously cool. I knew they tailored their own fuels, but I never knew just how many. I am scared to inquire how much a 55gal drum of anything on that list would cost

Everyone forgets how involved fueling is and just focus on things like octane. Imagine if we had tried to explain whys and hows of the implication of adding things like Isoheptane, Benzene, Tetraethyl Lead etc. in some of the performance/economy threads that pop up all the time.

Like why, Shells WRC Fuel for Turbo cars can be as low as 95 octane on cars running hot for hours under full load, ridiculously high boost pressure and anti-lagging every single shift (retarding/richening combustion so it continues/occurs into the manifold and turbine volute to spool and maintain boost when the clutch is disengaged)

As you pointed out though, the Toluene I get at paint stores/home depot/lowes is not pure toluene but it certainly does the trick! Mixing with pump 93 helps spread the cost out too. And when I get some tuning bugs sorted out with my new VE table, the Alky kit goes back on, and I begin tuning my Aux Fuel tables all over again

With a dyno any thing is possible but its a lot of work making volumetric tables and then fuel/timing for every fuel. The main reason they dont recommend mixing your own fuel is of consistency but every once in a while you can get it right. Just give me triptane,toluene and maybe ETBE.

Toluene in the store is not filtered that great and has an octane of 106 r/m which is still better than pump gas. Pure toluene has and octane of 118 r/m. Triptane pure is 112 for both r/m and I believe BP uses some fuel grade triptane in there ultimate with an octane of 106 r/m but need citations. I read it some where about 2-3 years ago. That would explain the smell of there gas.

Last edited by SilverBullet; 12-06-2010 at 10:10 PM..
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  #162  
Old 12-07-2010, 03:02 PM
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Well as we both know it is not just about octane, though it certainly helps.. My blend usually comes to about 100.5 octane but outperforms 100oct unleaded's because of of all the toluene!

With methanol on top of that it's comparable to C16...

And wow.. this thread has ~3400 views now, with 250 views in the last 24 hours

With only 5-6 main contributors in here that makes for a lot of spectators!

If anyone reading through this has questions/ideas or just cool stuff to share please do!

There are no stupid questions guys.. Well there might be, but none so far
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  #163  
Old 12-09-2010, 02:47 AM
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Great thread.
it appears that you all have so much information flinging about, how to decipher and apply it to a certain application gets a bit murky. So here it goes; I have a t1r turbo kit purchased from yee-fit quit a while ago. The beauty of his kit was; he had amassed many upgrades for the original kit. I added Fic, boomslang, intake manifold. egt, fuel pump, watermeth and upgraded injectors next on the hit list. My goal is around 200 hp/tq running 10 psi. so my questions are: would RDX injectors be the best choice for replacing the 310 cc units that come with the kit? What watermeth kit should I go with; AEM, devils own, snow.....somthing? I plan on leaving the internals of the motor stock and I will modify this post to include the upgraded parts that came with the kit tomorrow. Any info, suggestions/ part numbers/ suppliers/ price points, constructive criticism is welcome. Thanks in advance and also for the wealth of knowledge em parted in this thread to date. Cheers Cam
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  #164  
Old 12-09-2010, 03:37 AM
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Great thread.
it appears that you all have so much information flinging about, how to decipher and apply it to a certain application gets a bit murky. So here it goes; I have a t1r turbo kit purchased from yee-fit quit a while ago. The beauty of his kit was; he had amassed many upgrades for the original kit. I added Fic, boomslang, intake manifold. egt, fuel pump, watermeth and upgraded injectors next on the hit list. My goal is around 200 hp/tq running 10 psi. so my questions are: would RDX injectors be the best choice for replacing the 310 cc units that come with the kit? What watermeth kit should I go with; AEM, devils own, snow.....somthing? I plan on leaving the internals of the motor stock and I will modify this post to include the upgraded parts that came with the kit tomorrow. Any info, suggestions/ part numbers/ suppliers/ price points, constructive criticism is welcome. Thanks in advance and also for the wealth of knowledge em parted in this thread to date. Cheers Cam
Sounds like you are all set, really. You will still need a wide band oxygen sensor and gauge as well as a boost controller to keep it where you want it, the wastegate could come as low as 3psi without a boost controller.

10-11psi boost on top of 52psi base fuel pressure brings us to ~63psi overall fuel pressure. On the 310s @ 63psi overall we get 406cc/min @ 100%, and 325cc/min @ 80%.

To make 200whp, you're going to need about 230HP at the crank on a manual trans. This will require about 24lbs/min airflow. If we assume worst case scenario of a Brake Specific Fuel Consumption of .65 to feed that would take 1800cc/min gas., the Fit will need four 450cc/min injectors to keep IDCs at 80% or below.



Injectors are usually rated at only 43.5 psi, so 450s @ 43.5psi and 100% IDCs can become 390cc/min @ 52psi base fuel pressure and 80% IDC's.

But they flow 430cc/min under 11psi boost (63psi overall) @ 80% IDCs, so they will do the trick and leave you enough head room in case you get some nice cold air, things won't lean out and detonate.


So 1920cc/min from all 4 injectors @ 80% is more than enough to safely run 1800cc/min worth of fuel for about 24-25lbs/min of air. Every car is different and I was using 2000cc/min to run 33lbs/min on a bigger more efficient compressor.

Your tune will determine how much fuel you actually need based on what timing and AFRs you can get away with.

Since our BFP is 52psi, and you are looking to run 11psi on a T1R turbo (GT2554R right?) as long as you have enough fuel pump you are going to be making about the max power you can in a remotely efficient manner on a turbo this size.

Click the image to open in full size.

24-25lbs/min @ 11psi boost (0.75bar) puts you in the center right approaching the bleeding edge of the lowest acceptable efficiency islands (60-65%)

If you follow the vertical line from 25lb/min up to where it would intersect a horizontal line from a pressure ratio of 1.75 you will see what I am talking about.

I get a pressure ratio of 1.75bar because of atmospheric pressure at sealevel is 1bar (14.7psi) plus .75bar boost (11psi)

Because it is only 60-65% efficient at that boost and airflow the air temps coming out will be hot, and even a good intercooler will only help so much here, without getting ridiculously large.

This is where water/methanol comes in. Not only does it cool the charge, and provide knock resistance, but the 50% methanol is combustible and further drops IDCs taking stress of your fuel system and allowing for as much fuel as is needed in the even of a super cold day so you don't run lean and go boom, or on a hot day so you don't go boom...

I would look into Devil's Own, AEM, Aquamist or Snow Performance for your meth kit. A 325cc/min @150psi meth nozzle up by the throttle body would be a good place to start, this would be both insurance for your engine and a significant power adder! Call a couple of them up and see who you find most helpful and affordable. AEM and Snow Performance are the ones I am more familiar with but have heard good things from all of them.
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Last edited by DiamondStarMonsters; 12-09-2010 at 12:03 PM..
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  #165  
Old 12-09-2010, 09:58 PM
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SI just wish I could afford to run the Honda/ELF Racing blended fuel (84% Toluene, 15% n-Heptane w/ 1%) water in my Laser when I go to Loring and the Maxton Mile next year.

Whats up with water? I know F1 racing allows 1 percent additive but I though it would be acetone,isoheptane, etc.
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  #166  
Old 12-10-2010, 02:17 AM
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Whats up with water? I know F1 racing allows 1 percent additive but I though it would be acetone,isoheptane, etc.
The water, while not combustable requires a lot of energy to vaporize, and is basically there for absorbing heat and since it is incompressible till it atomizes it helps increase cylinder pressure, if only briefly. Same reason some eccentric people and several race teams inject it pre-compressor!

There are other uses but it is too late at the moment and my brain is not working.. Ill try and follow up tomorrow after work

Just got in from playing in the snow in the GD and teaching the girlfriends sister how handle a stick when things get slick. Time for bed, final exam tomorrow morning @ 10
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  #167  
Old 12-10-2010, 11:15 PM
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I was looking around and found this tert-Butanol - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia BP ultimate is ethanol free but not alcohol free. Thats the weird smell BP has.
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  #168  
Old 12-11-2010, 06:56 PM
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I found this a wondered where to post it. Its a fuel injection write up for a turbo Mitsubishi 3000GT VR4 and I figured this was the right spot. Stealth 316 - 3S Fuel Injection Control and Fuel Cut
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  #169  
Old 12-12-2010, 07:15 PM
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I found this a wondered where to post it. Its a fuel injection write up for a turbo Mitsubishi 3000GT VR4 and I figured this was the right spot. Stealth 316 - 3S Fuel Injection Control and Fuel Cut

That and the ECMTuning wiki should be mandatory for car owners who consider modifying their vehicles. There are also a bunch of Garret and MHI compressor maps available through that website!

Sorry I have been slow to respond lately school and work are taking their toll as we get closer to christmas and the end of the semester.

I did get a chance to find some nice cheap center caps for my Rotas instead of the $17 or $30 I am being quoted everywhere else! 2" Dia electrical knockouts. Will require a 5mm spacer on the hub to clear in the back, so right now I only have the fronts capped which was my only real concern and motivation to find caps in the first place.



Also ran into another black GD fit while at Home Depot.



Also wanted to add, I switched the GD3 to BP Ultimate (93oct) from the shell station I regulary use and while I haven't noticed any gains in mileage I feel like it has picked up a few degrees of timing right off idle and through VTEC activation.

I out of habit went to Shell for gas to put in the Laser unfortunately so no conclusive results on that till my next tank, which at 4.x mpg @ WOT might not be far off
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Last edited by DiamondStarMonsters; 12-12-2010 at 07:21 PM..
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  #170  
Old 12-14-2010, 02:24 AM
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This is so exciting! I WAS able to modify the r18 turbo manifold to bolt right up with little more than a drill, some C clamps, and an angle grinder. I test fit the t25and IT CLEARS! I just got the aem fic in the mail today. I already have used rsx-s injectors. All thats left is to order the oil line kit, weld oil pan bung on, weld a downpipe onto 5bolt flange and tune tune tune. I will be done by the end of January! Total cost is going to be under $1200. Thanks for the inspiration, I can't believe I was actually going to wait for a $3000 kit once upon a time. Even though the t25 is much too small to go above 10psi I'm hoping this turbo will spool at 2200 rpms and allow me to launch in boost and correct the ATs fatal weakness - slow launches (my best stock 60' is 2.9 seconds O.o).
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Last edited by Lyon[Nightroad]; 12-14-2010 at 02:28 AM..
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  #171  
Old 12-14-2010, 02:36 AM
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I have a turbo on an old Volvo that I ought to do something with... I keep looking at my 97 GMC Safari cargo van and my wife's 95 Sierra, Both V6s... I'm really to old and stove up to try and my brain isn't capable of all of the mathematics necessary.
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  #172  
Old 12-14-2010, 02:41 AM
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Click the image to open in full size.

still need to clock the compressor side by about 120 degrees.
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Old 12-14-2010, 02:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Lyon[Nightroad] View Post
This is so exciting! I WAS able to modify the r18 turbo manifold to bolt right up with little more than a drill, some C clamps, and an angle grinder. I test fit the t25and IT CLEARS! I just got the aem fic in the mail today. I already have used rsx-s injectors. All thats left is to order the oil line kit, weld oil pan bung on, weld a downpipe onto 5bolt flange and tune tune tune. I will be done by the end of January! Total cost is going to be under $1200. Thanks for the inspiration, I can't believe I was actually going to wait for a $3000 kit once upon a time. Even though the t25 is much too small to go above 10psi I'm hoping this turbo will spool at 2200 rpms and allow me to launch in boost and correct the ATs fatal weakness - slow launches (my best stock 60' is 2.9 seconds O.o).

Now that is exactly what I have been talking about since I started this thread! Well done, if you can find the time care to get a couple pics up?

Where did you source your R18 manifold and what all did you have to remove from the engine bay to get the turbo mounted up? Did you have to clock the turbo at all?

FWIW, the DSM style T25s, (if not because of the comparably large 6cm2 turbine inlet and segregated wastegate recirc they come attached to on our 2.0Ls), finally start to blow hot air around 15psi!

If I mailed you my 14B, or just drove down there, would you mind helping me check if it fits?

You said it has the 5 bolt downpipe flange though, so that may complicate things depending on exactly which turbine housing is on your garrett unit.
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Old 12-14-2010, 02:49 AM
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I have a turbo on an old Volvo that I ought to do something with... I keep looking at my 97 GMC Safari cargo van and my wife's 95 Sierra, Both V6s... I'm really to old and stove up to try and my brain isn't capable of all of the mathematics necessary.
As long as you can turn a wrench I'll do the math for ya! What displacement is the volvo versus the v6's.. you may be onto somethin there
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Old 12-14-2010, 02:51 AM
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Click the image to open in full size.

still need to clock the compressor side by about 120 degrees.

Bravo! Looks like they were made to go there! Have you decided the compressor inlet has to face the passenger side in order to clear? Or will that change when you rotate the housing on the CHRA?
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  #176  
Old 12-14-2010, 02:52 AM
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In all honesty a t4 would probably fit back there. The r18 flange sits the turbo so low that firewall clearance stops being an issue.
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  #177  
Old 12-14-2010, 02:55 AM
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Aye, the compressor side has to go on passenger side or else the turbine side will hit the block. I plan to change the washer fluid bottle to something smaller and fabricate something into the passenger fender for cold air. Plus it makes the downpipe 9000 times easier to fab up with one of these:

Click the image to open in full size.

or (more likely since im lazy and cheap)

Click the image to open in full size.
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Last edited by Lyon[Nightroad]; 12-22-2010 at 05:16 AM..
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  #178  
Old 12-14-2010, 02:56 AM
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In all honesty a t4 would probably fit back there. The r18 flange sits the turbo so low that firewall clearance stops being an issue.
That is encouraging, the GD seems to have room back there towards the tunnel as well. I have a couple turbos laying around if you get bored or stumble across a beefier fuel system.

Have you considered a shield, blanket or wrap for the hot side?
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  #179  
Old 12-14-2010, 03:03 AM
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If I told you that I made the ultimate leap of faith and bought an r18 turbo kit just to see if the r18 flange worked, would you think me mad? I'm probably going to just buy some cheap wrap at winners circle in downtown joliet once I'm happy with the positioning. Ambient temps are going to be so low for a while that I'm going to run it at 7psi with no intercooler just to get the base tune down. Once spring comes around or I start bleeding off the actuator, in goes the fmic and some heat wrap.
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Last edited by Lyon[Nightroad]; 12-14-2010 at 03:06 AM..
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Old 12-14-2010, 03:13 AM
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If I told you that I made the ultimate leap of faith and bought an r18 turbo kit just to see if the r18 flange worked, would you think me mad?
Based on your previous work that you've shared here, I would call it an educated guess at worst. I am sure you realize the implications for all GE owners of succesfully pulling off this project. Everyone that has been blue balled when manufacturers/vendors start a thread and then flake.

My work and plans on the GD are only to make more power more efficiently and reliably. Most of the pioneering has been done there, aside from testing limits.

You have just opened up a whole world for some of these guys if this can be put to use and DIY tuned! From previous discussions you seem very well versed from the bits of theory we've thrown back and forth over time, I'm curious though, have you had the chance to tune your own car via laptop app like the FIC? Or will this be another leap of faith? So far you seem to be doing quite well with this approach
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