General Discussion on the Honda Fit/Jazz.
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The manager at Discount tire tells me to not rotate my tires... really?
Some of you may know I just bought my fit a week ago. Traveled from Minneapolis to Duluth to find a grey sport manual no nav, with a salvage title. 28k miles. Got it for 9k.
Love the car but it needed a few things. Oil change and tire rotation. The fronts were at 6/32 and the rears were at 9/32. Its still been snowing here so i wanted to put the good tires on the front. That would be the smart thing to do right???????
The manager tells me that he won't rotate them because of the danger of oversteer. If anything he would have me purchase 2 new tires for the rear and put the rears on the front. I couldn't help but laugh, tell him it was ok, and then go somewhere else.
Anyone else ever been told such sillyness? Or have I been wrong about tires my entire life? Someone please clue me in.
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The tire dealer is right. I would probably not rotate them, and when the front (worst) tires need to be replaced replace them all and then rotate them on a schedule.
Your Fit's maintenance minder will tell you to rotate them on every oil change. I use the old Ford schedule of rotate after the first 5,000 miles on the tires (important) and every 10,000 miles thereafter. I have been doing this on all my cars since the 70s, works for me.
Last edited by spreadhead; 03-10-2011 at 08:15 AM.
The good tires always go on the back. That's the reason for regular rotations - you want to keep tire wear as even as possible, because having sinificantly more grip on the fronts than the rear puts you at risk of catastrophic oversteer, especially in winter weather. Without being able to use the throttle to steer the rear in a FWD car, you'd have very limited control once you've started to slide. Understeer isn't fun, but in FWD cars, typically corrects itself when you lift-off the accelerator.
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fmrly: 2010 Fit Sport 5AT - terrific car, but couldn't get comfortable in it after 17,000 miles, so bit the bullet on a trade.
they're all right, if the difference in tread is too great, you're supposed to put the better tires in the back, especially when you're dealing with rain or snow.
it's safer for most drivers to understeer, than to oversteer and let the rear hang loose
I ran into this with my last car. I figured front wheel drive put the best ones up there. The tire shop said no and actually had a posted sign explaining it.
Old dog learned a new trick that day.
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they're all right, if the difference in tread is too great, you're supposed to put the better tires in the back, especially when you're dealing with rain or snow.
it's safer for most drivers to understeer, than to oversteer and let the rear hang loose
If your front wheel drive car begins to oversteer on the slush, you can try to steer into the skid, but you can't use the throttle to any advantage except possibly inducing a 4 wheel skid.
Of course, with stability control on all but the cheapest of late model cars, and standard on all cars now (I think), hopefully there will be less of that four-wheel-skid-into-oblivion stuff.
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2011 Scion tC 6MT
2008 Kawi Ninja 650R
fmrly: 2010 Fit Sport 5AT - terrific car, but couldn't get comfortable in it after 17,000 miles, so bit the bullet on a trade.
I work at Tires Plus, and we say the same thing. best tires on the rear no matter what drivetrain. We wouldn't of refused to rotate your tires all together though =S. Its just a suggestion, we can't really make any decisions for you. Of course if its too much of a liability for us and a danger for you and anyone on the road we obviously just refuse the work. if you ever need tires swing on by. minneapolis is right next door.
Y'all are nuts. FWD cars wear out the fronts first, so you should proactively rotate per the manufacturer's instructions, unless you have unsafe tread depth and need to replace. Just rotate on-time/mileage and forget about it.
While good tires in the rear prevent oversteer, good tires in front prevent you from instant death having a head-on with a big rig. Seriously, would you rather have a blowout in front or back? Would you rather you lose the ability to steer and go off a cliff?
Often I'll delay my rotation and get noticeably lower tread depth in front. I rotate to the back until the rears put in front are evenly worn, then I go back to the usual schedule. That's just me
Y'all are nuts. FWD cars wear out the fronts first, so you should proactively rotate per the manufacturer's instructions, unless you have unsafe tread depth and need to replace. Just rotate on-time/mileage and forget about it.
While good tires in the rear prevent oversteer, good tires in front prevent you from instant death having a head-on with a big rig. Seriously, would you rather have a blowout in front or back? Would you rather you lose the ability to steer and go off a cliff?
Often I'll delay my rotation and get noticeably lower tread depth in front. I rotate to the back until the rears put in front are evenly worn, then I go back to the usual schedule. That's just me
Lot's of nuts out there. Maybe you should be working for Michelin, Goodyear, or Tire Rack, since you obviously know more about tires than they do.
Good links!
Quote:
Originally Posted by jondotcom
Y'all are nuts. FWD cars wear out the fronts first, so you should proactively rotate per the manufacturer's instructions, unless you have unsafe tread depth and need to replace. Just rotate on-time/mileage and forget about it.
While good tires in the rear prevent oversteer, good tires in front prevent you from instant death having a head-on with a big rig. Seriously, would you rather have a blowout in front or back? Would you rather you lose the ability to steer and go off a cliff?
Often I'll delay my rotation and get noticeably lower tread depth in front. I rotate to the back until the rears put in front are evenly worn, then I go back to the usual schedule. That's just me
No. Just... no.
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Good tires should go on the front. On dry pavement, more tread does not mean more traction. In rainy conditions having more tread on the front wheels will provide better traction to the wheels that steer. On a FWD car, front wheels do a lot more than rear wheels.
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Ya know... this is one of those threads like the is 93 octane good for you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by john21031
Good tires should go on the front. On dry pavement, more tread does not mean more traction. In rainy conditions having more tread on the front wheels will provide better traction to the wheels that steer. On a FWD car, front wheels do a lot more than rear wheels.
Are you actually steering... if you're fishtailing all over the place? If you lose traction on the front wheels... what happens when you brake? your car straightens out and slows down. if you lose traction on the rear, and you brake... you get a 180. That because of something I learned of not too long ago... weight transfer. The same thing Lyon brought up in a thread where he induced oversteer on a ramp. Its not an actual movement of weight, but the forces of that weight. When you brake... more force is automatically applied to the front, and less on the rear. This is why we have a stronger front brake "bias." However, when there's not enough on the rear, they lose traction. If the front has traction and the rear doesn't... it makes the front wheels a pivot point... regardless of where you are steering.
If you want to imagine this... pick up a pen/pencil/stick/whatever straight. Hold it up vertically... now, if you hold it lightly by the top, nothing happens.. but if you hold it lightly by the bottom, it always wants to turn over.
These are the same forces on the pen as on the car, gavity/momentum... grip on pen/traction on road (while braking). Sure, you can grip the pen harder to prevent it from turning over... but there's nothing in our world right now, that can do that with a car... it's gonna spin.
If you're not braking... well, that's another story (that someone else can probably better deal with).
Quote:
Originally Posted by popular mechanics link
Some tire stores insist on installing two new tires on the rear wheels of vehicles when the fronts are worn, and moving the old rear tires to the front--much to the dismay of many customers who want the new tires on the front. So, who's right?
Actually, I agree with the stores, as do the tire companies. Here's why: In dry, clear weather it really doesn't make much difference. But if the road is wet, the new, full-treaded tires are less likely to lose traction than the partly worn ones. If you're hauling ants down the road and come to a wet curve, the full-treaded tires on the rear will stay behind you, where they belong.
If the rear tires have less tread, there's a greater chance that they will slip, putting your rear bumper into the ditch. Okay, if the front tires skid, there's the chance you might go off the road, too--but at least it'll be headfirst, where your seatbelts and airbags offer more protection.
Anyone else ever been told such sillyness? Or have I been wrong about tires my entire life? Someone please clue me in.
Yes, many tires places have that policy (Costco for one), and it's infuriating.
1. Yes, there are many sources that give evidence to put the better tires on the rear. Almost all of them are tire manufacturers. Obviously, it is in their best interest to have you buy more tires. "Sorry, we cannot rotate your tires due to safety concerns. You'll have to buy 4 new tires." Where in the Honda manual does it say to leave the better tires on the rear?
2. If you follow the policy that the better tires should always go in the back, then you can never rotate your tires with a FWD. If you start with brand new tires, the front tires will wear faster than the rear. So you can't rotate the better rear ones to the front.
3. Look, I understand that understeer is easier to correct than oversteer. But follow me on this example. The OP said that he has tires that are 6/32 and 9/32. I'm going to make up some theoretical numbers and say that the 6/32 tires can grip 0.6G, and the 9/32 can grip 0.9G. But FWD are designed to favor understeer, so the front tires get a -0.1G penalty. Here's how the numbers would work out with the 2 options:
a. better tires in the back: The back tires will have 0.9G of traction. The front tires will have 0.5G of traction. That means the car will lose traction at 0.5G
b. better tires in the front: The back tires will have 0.6G traction. Front tires will have 0.8G. The car will lose traction at 0.6G. Guess what, better tires in the front will allow more overall traction.
4. If you look at the long term effects (which none of those tire manufacturer sources do), it's even more evident. Let's say you've been driving for a while on FWD, and it wears 2/32 tread off the front tires, and 1/32 off the back. Now here's your situation:
a. better tires in the back: now you've got 4/32 tread in front (0.3G traction), 8/32 tread in back (0.8G). That means you lose traction at 0.3G
b. better tires in front: now you've got 7/32 tread in front (0.6G traction), 5/32 tread in back (0.5G). That means you lose traction at 0.5G. And now your tires are more evenly matched. Which means you won't be buying tires anytime soon, which is a loss for tire manufacturers, they wouldn't want this.
Physics should be mandatory two semester course before they give you people licenses.
I took 4 semesters of physics in college. I understand that putting better tires in the back will result in understeer, which is easier to correct. However, if you put the better tires in the front and drive at a safe speed according to the conditions, you will have better overall traction, and you'll be better off in the long term (when the front tires wear faster than the rear tires).
Quote:
Originally Posted by DiamondStarMonsters
Some people just need a conspiracy to make them feel better about their confirmation biases. This isnt about making money, its about keeping your ass alive.
I asked a simple question. If this is such an important safety issue, where in the Honda Fit owner's manual does it say to put the better tires in the rear?
Quote:
Originally Posted by DiamondStarMonsters
If you are rotating your tires enough to keep the treads even it doesnt matter then.
I rotate my tires religiously according to the owner's manual. But when I get a unpatchable nail, it throws off the tread life between front and rear. The best way to catch up is to the put the new ones in the front. Unless you believe the tire manufacturers and buy 4 new tires for one blowout (which is fine, but not everyone is willing to do that).
The amount of available friction doesnt mean dick if you cant use it and by your own admission understeer is easier to reel in for the population at large.
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Yes, many tires places have that policy (Costco for one), and it's infuriating.
1. Yes, there are many sources that give evidence to put the better tires on the rear. Almost all of them are tire manufacturers. Obviously, it is in their best interest to have you buy more tires. "Sorry, we cannot rotate your tires due to safety concerns. You'll have to buy 4 new tires." Where in the Honda manual does it say to leave the better tires on the rear?
2. If you follow the policy that the better tires should always go in the back, then you can never rotate your tires with a FWD. If you start with brand new tires, the front tires will wear faster than the rear. So you can't rotate the better rear ones to the front.
3. Look, I understand that understeer is easier to correct than oversteer. But follow me on this example. The OP said that he has tires that are 6/32 and 9/32. I'm going to make up some theoretical numbers and say that the 6/32 tires can grip 0.6G, and the 9/32 can grip 0.9G. But FWD are designed to favor understeer, so the front tires get a -0.1G penalty. Here's how the numbers would work out with the 2 options:
a. better tires in the back: The back tires will have 0.9G of traction. The front tires will have 0.5G of traction. That means the car will lose traction at 0.5G
b. better tires in the front: The back tires will have 0.6G traction. Front tires will have 0.8G. The car will lose traction at 0.6G. Guess what, better tires in the front will allow more overall traction.
4. If you look at the long term effects (which none of those tire manufacturer sources do), it's even more evident. Let's say you've been driving for a while on FWD, and it wears 2/32 tread off the front tires, and 1/32 off the back. Now here's your situation:
a. better tires in the back: now you've got 4/32 tread in front (0.3G traction), 8/32 tread in back (0.8G). That means you lose traction at 0.3G
b. better tires in front: now you've got 7/32 tread in front (0.6G traction), 5/32 tread in back (0.5G). That means you lose traction at 0.5G. And now your tires are more evenly matched. Which means you won't be buying tires anytime soon, which is a loss for tire manufacturers, they wouldn't want this.
Very well put! The lawyers demanded that stupid a$$ policy. I hate that lawters dictate our world...
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If your tires are fairly evenly worn do rotate your tires. If they are not evenly worn or you replace two tires only then put the better tires on the back, otherwise you may find your rear end passing your front end and there is nothing you can do about it. This is explained and illustrated in these videos:
Really sorry I confused you
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