Dealer's Invoice
 

I couldn't find the original thread I began about the VTC actuator problem, so I'm posting this here.

We picked up the car yesterday and paid the bill: $2541.78. Ridiculous - especially for a common, known problem on several Honda engines, something that Honda should have covered.

The dealer charged me $21.51 for Hondabond HT (silicone sealant). I can buy a tube for $12. Honda says one tube will do ten cars. So, the dealer charged me $21.51 rather than $1.20. When I get the chance, I'm going to look up the actual prices of the other eleven parts they said they used. I get too worked up just thinking about this, so I'm not going to rush into it. I'll also post a copy of the invoice. Honda's Service Bulletin says there are four parts required. The dealer charged me for eleven. He ordered the parts before he saw that more parts were required, so it's not like he discovered bad parts during the job.

Labor cost $1,370.59. The dealer said it was a six-hour job. That works out to $228.43/hour. I know it didn't take six hours, based on what the internet says: 4.5 - 5 hours. The parts arrived on Saturday, and the job was done by 2:30. There are not six hours between parts delivery and 2:30. There is no mention of the time it took to do the job, only what the service guy said when I left the car.

Basically, the dealer is a lying thief. Although I emailed Honda Customer Service, I'm not expecting a reply, certainly not a favorable one. I feel like someone broke into my house and stole a bunch of stuff. When the police caught the guy, they said they couldn't do anything because he had a license to steal.

I've always done all the work on all my cars, and bringing this one to the dealer was definitely a mistake. I'll never make that mistake again.

Here is a comparison of what the dealer changed for parts vs what I could have bought online, from Honda Parts Now, for example.

Actuator 14310 395.73 109.88
Chain 159.70 250.25
Tensioner 180.29 113.09
Arm 68.10 40.18
Guide 94.52 55.70
Guide 69.18 40.82
Gasket 29.85 15.09
Oil Seal 20.97 9.90
Oil Ring 4.66 0.97
Filter 32.73 16.56
O-Ring 3.40 0.48
HondaBond HT 21.51 10.15 Honda says this tube will do ten cars.

1,171.19 572.53 That's $598.66 over the regular dealer profit for those parts.

You only need to change the spring inside the actuator to fix the issue. This is what I did myself and I did a valve top cleaning at the same time. Despite Honda telling you that you need to changing out the the whole assembly.

Most larger mechanic operations, and almost certainly all dealership service departments, have set time estimates for any given job, from an oil change to a complete engine replacement and everything in between. Undoubtedly, those times have a bit of wiggle room built in. A 20-year veteran mechanic can probably do the job quicker than the book value, whereas the "new guy" might not be able to. I assume you want the most experienced tech working on your car. Also note that if a job takes longer than the "book" time (e.g., in a salt state, hardware removal is a chore), they will typically eat that extra time/cost.

From the dealership perspective, this makes sense. The dealership doesn't want techs wasting time documenting how long each step of an often complicated process takes (e.g., 8 minutes to remove airbox and battery, 6 minutes to remove intake manifold, and so on). From your perspective, this also makes sense assuming you would prefer that the tech is focused on the repair rather than on how long each individual step takes or how quickly they can rush through each step. I don't think there's anything nefarious here, it's just how the process goes.

That repair was expensive, both in terms of parts and labor. If you're not a DIY person, and if you don't have a trusted independent mechanic (as an aside, some independent mechanics will let you provide parts), what other option would you propose?

Thanks. I'll never have that dealer do anything, not even a recall. If the guy began work at noon and finished at 3:00, that's three hours, not the "book time" of six hours.

It shouldn't be hard to find; you've started five of the last eight threads in this section alone. I'm sure it's one of them.

Just curious, where you looking over his/her shoulder to document the time? How do you know when they started the work? Are you positive there was only one mechanic working on your car for the entire time?

It's a small car, small engine, and tight work area. Room for just one person. It's not a clown car. 😂 There was only one mechanic listed on the invoice.

The service writer said it takes six hours. If the car was finished at 2:30, he would have had to begin work at 8:30. That doesn't allow much time for delivery, sorting packages, getting that parts to the mechanic, and opening all of them. Any way you look at it, I was severely overcharged.

"Replacing a Honda Fit VTC actuator typically takes around 4.8 to 5 hours, as it requires removing the camshaft and timing chain, according to one source. However, the exact time can vary depending on the mechanic's experience and the specific model of the Honda Fit. "

Note: It DOES NOT require removing the camshaft.

I again will ask, were you staking out the dealership to monitor parts delivery? Did you have an NSA drone monitoring the movements of the mechanics to know when they clock in and when they began working on your car?

For context, for several summers my brother delivered parts to auto and heavy equipment dealerships in the Midwest. He would sometimes be sent on an hour+ drive to deliver a handful of parts. There was no sorting packages involved - someone handed him the parts and told him where to go, he handed the parts to the person at the front desk at the service department, and they handed the parts to the mechanic. I'm not saying that delivery method makes sense, but that's how it sometimes happens. My point being, you can't just assume that your car couldn't possibly have been touched by the mechanic for hours after the service department opened.

Note that I'm not saying you weren't overcharged in the general sense or relative to costs from an independent mechanic. You definitely paid more than it would have cost as a DIY repair. You chose to go to a dealership and you paid dealership service prices.

I had my first colonoscopy a few months ago. I knew what I was getting into so there was no point complaining, right?

According to Service Bulletin 16-088 (defective VTC actuator), the "book time" for warranty claim purposes (how long Honda corporate says it will take) is 3 hours. It looks like they did timing chain service on top of that, but adding the flat-rate time for the chain on top of the VTC time doesn't make any sense. There's something like 95% overlap between the jobs - replacing the VTC actuator during timing chain service should add maybe 10 minutes to unbolt and swap out the actuators.

Go back and ask for the "bad" parts. They're required to return them to you if you ask (accepting maybe warranty work) as you still own the parts they removed. They may have disposed of them already, but it's good to get proof that they actually replaced the parts they claim they replaced, not just padding out the bill.

Here's your original thread:

https://www.fitfreak.net/forums/3rd-...r-dealers.html

In that thread, I posted a link to the $24 spring for the VTC actuator.

I'm baffled that you went ahead with the costly repair without getting a second opinion first.

We still don't know whether the chain was stretched and needed replacement since you didn't request parts back.

If the chain was OK and just the VTC actuator spring making noise, you could have gotten by with replacing the spring and paying labor only.

Then the question would be someone willing to do this work other than your no longer trusted Honda dealer.

I went to the dealer because I had no choice.

Then why are you complaining?

I have to get up every day, walk the dog twice per day, work, pay bills, pay taxes, mow the grass, go to boring and time-consuming meetings, etc. I have no choice, so complaining about it isn't going to help me or anyone else.

If you don't want to pay dealership prices, invest your time in finding a different mechanic that you trust, or learning DIY repair skills, or sell the problematic car and buy a different one, or use public transportation, or ride a bicycle. Any of those options will provide tangible relief from paying Honda dealership prices.

You really have a bug up you a$$, don't you?

I paid four times what I should have paid for this job.

Only if you had the choice or option to pay less.

Conversely, if you:
1) had to have the repair and
2) could only get it done at the dealership as you claim, then you paid exactly what you had to pay for the repair.

In your own words, there was no other option for you. That's just logic, or life, or reality. Whatever you want to call it.

This guy must work for a stealership. :wavey:

Are they hiring?

I don't work for a dealership. I have visited a (Toyota) dealership exactly once in 30 years of driving for the Takata airbag recall on a prior car I owned. I cannot imagine ever shopping at a dealership or having service performed at a dealership for the very reasons that the OP is complaining about. In other words, I choose not to give business to dealerships because they overcharge.

What I am is someone who believes in logic, rationality, and reality. If the OP states that he had no option except service at the dealership, then the dealership service price is what he had to pay. If someone can come up with a different solution to that equation I would love to see it.

I used to work for a casino, I feel like they screw people less than Honda Service these days.

The best I can suggest is to go in well-informed and then call them on their BS. In SiverEX's case, there's no excuse for anything over 4 hours of labor. The timing chain service is questionable - unlike a timing belt, there's no specified replacement interval. That knocks off $660 of parts ($250 of which was dealer mark-up). So there's $1100 of fluff in that work order. More if you address the dealer's 260% mark-up on the VTC actuator.

Good point, but recall that in a different post the OP reported that the repair was estimated at $2700. He then agreed to proceed with the repair based on that estimate. The time to have a discussion with the service department about the cost of parts, or which parts did or did not need to be replaced, or the estimated labor charge/hours was before getting the repair done. Once you agree to the dealership repair, you're going to pay the dealership price. Complaining afterwards about the cost you agreed to pay does nothing.

Indeed, and legally speaking it's a done deal once the work has been completed. However he paid for diagnostics prior to the estimate, and if the technician incorrectly identified the timing chain as being faulty, that's on the technician (service center employee) IMO. Checking for chain stretch is trivially easy - you lay the chain down on a clean bench such that the chain's bendy-ness is supported by the bench. Then flatten out a section (the longer the better) and try stretching or compressing it (the chain's weight should keep it flat on the bench). A good chain should have very little change in length. With no service interval, there's no reason to replace a good chain. Again, getting the "bad" parts back to inspect could be the necessary foot-in-the-door for a partial refund, at least for the $660 of chain and guides.