TeGGeR® wrote:
> After a long passage of time and much dithering, I've finally finished two
> big updates.
>
> 1) New section on igniter function
> http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ignit.../howworks.html
>
> 2) Coil failure
> http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/start...s.html#badcoil
>
> Any critical advice is welcome. I'm not an electronics engineer, so there
> are surely mistakes somewhere.

Good job, John. Thanks!

 

"Remco" <whybcuz@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:1117278349.305101.146650@g44g2000cwa.googlegr oups.com:

> TeGGeR® wrote:
>> After a long passage of time and much dithering, I've finally
>> finished two big updates.
>>
>> 1) New section on igniter function
>> http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ignit.../howworks.html
>>
>> 2) Coil failure
>> http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/start...s.html#badcoil
>>
>> Any critical advice is welcome. I'm not an electronics engineer, so
>> there are surely mistakes somewhere.
>
> Good job, John. Thanks!
>


Thanks.

Thanks are also owed to all those (including you) who helped by supplying
much valuable information.

--
TeGGeR®

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

 

In article <Xns966440B3E088tegger@207.14.113.17>, "TeGGeR®"
<tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote:

> After a long passage of time and much dithering, I've finally finished two
> big updates.
>
> 1) New section on igniter function
> http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ignit.../howworks.html
>
> 2) Coil failure
> http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/start...s.html#badcoil
>
> Any critical advice is welcome. I'm not an electronics engineer, so there
> are surely mistakes somewhere.

Tegger,
Thanks again for your help. I just wanted to let you know that I received
a letter from Honda and the title of the recall notice was:
Ignition key is removable with the shift lever out of Park

I took my Honda to the local Honda dealership and they installed the
following as per the service report:
1 06351-S84-000 KIT, LEVER (A)

I don't know whether the first number 1 is part of the part number or
means that only one kit was installed. I hope this helps. I have not yet
had a chance to revisit your web site.

--
NEWSGROUP SUBSCRIBERS MOTTO
We respect those subscribers that ask for advice or provide advice.
We do NOT respect the subscribers that enjoy criticizing people.

 

After a long passage of time and much dithering, I've finally finished two
big updates.

1) New section on igniter function
http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ignit.../howworks.html

2) Coil failure
http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/start...s.html#badcoil

Any critical advice is welcome. I'm not an electronics engineer, so there
are surely mistakes somewhere.

--
TeGGeR®

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

 

"TeGGeR®" <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote in message
news:Xns9669D79281ACtegger@207.14.113.17...
> Jim Yanik <jyanik@abuse.gov.> wrote in
> news:Xns9669BF9265BD5jyanikkuanet@129.250.170.83:
> The electrons flow from POSITIVE TO NEGATIVE. The electrons go from where
> they are (-) to where they're not: The "holes" (+).
> http://nobelprize.org/physics/educat...n/forward.html
>
There is a big part of the confusion - electrons flow from [-] to [+].

The entire "hole" thing never helped me, either. I got a lot farther when I
started thinking of where the "positives" flowed, because both vacuum tubes
(which were still common when I was learning electronics) and NPN
transistors (which are the most common now but least common originally, both
for technical reasons) use negative ground. Trying to follow electron flow
distorts the idea of the ground, while thinking of "positives" flowing from
the power supply to ground worked great. (Also the "positives" flow in the
direction of the arrow on the emitter.)

For NPN transistors, here is the simple view. The emitter is grounded and
the collector has positive voltage applied to it. The transistor doesn't
conduct because the collector-base junction is reverse biased. Now positive
voltage is applied to the base. Below about 0.7 volts on the base nothing
much happens. As 0.7 volts is approached the base-emitter junction starts
drawing current, just like any other ordinary silicon diode. The
base-emitter current causes tens to hundreds of times that much current to
flow from the collector to emitter. As the base voltage rises to about 0.8
or 0.9 volts, the base-emitter current is so high that the collector current
can't go any higher - the voltage at the collector has dropped to only
0.1-0.2 volts, and the entire supply voltage (like the 12V battery) is
across whatever load is between the power supply and the collector. In the
ignition circuit, the collector has grounded the primary of the coil. This
condition is called "saturation" because increasing the base current doesn't
do anything to the collector any more.

It is important in switching circuits like the ignition to saturate the
transistor. If the collector voltage doesn't go very near ground, the
transistor has to dissipate the current times whatever voltage is left. If
the voltage is only twice the saturation voltage (say, 0.3 instead of 0.15)
the transistor has to dissipate twice the power.

Mike

 

"TeGGeR®" <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote in
news:Xns9669D79281ACtegger@207.14.113.17:


> Ah, but wait. I just thought of something: alt.electronics. Back
> soon...
>


Just checked message counts.
sci.electronics.misc
sci.electronics.repair
and
alt.home.repair
seem better choices, in case anyone wants to follow along...

I'm hoping to elicit responses from somebody like Sam Goldwasser.

--
TeGGeR®

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

 

Jim Yanik <jyanik@abuse.gov.> wrote in
news:Xns9669BF9265BD5jyanikkuanet@129.250.170.83:


>>
>
> The electrons are what's doing the moving,and they flow from neg to pos.
>


The electrons flow from POSITIVE TO NEGATIVE. The electrons go from where
they are (-) to where they're not: The "holes" (+).
http://nobelprize.org/physics/educat...n/forward.html

It's the actual everyday signal that's commonly perceived to go from
negative to positive.

But we have THREE paths in a transistor ("transfer resistor"). For a non-
techie, this is non-intuitive. I do not get how TWO terminals can have
THREE paths.

Please try to understand that I am not trying to be difficult, but that
this is not at all making sense to me.

I am hoping that someone, somewhere, will post with an explanation that
makes sense to my mind. In my professional life I have taught and trained
many, many individuals, and most have had certain things that just would
not "click" until the information was presented a certain way. I am seeking
that way, and I will persist until I find it. This is driving me crazy.

This graphic:
http://nobelprize.org/physics/educat.../amplification
..html
(all on one line; copy-and-paste as necessary)
shows the signal path from base electrode to collector.

This one:
http://nobelprize.org/physics/educat.../pointsymbol.h
tml
(again, all on one line)
appears to show the path from emitter to collector.

I do not get this and I am trying madly to understand. Graham W would be
able to correct me in an instant. He has been the most persnicketly
critical observer and the most productive from my point of view. Graham,
where aaaaaare you?...

Graham was the ONLY one to suggest alterations to the Main Relay function
graphics. Graham was the ONLY one to inform me of certain HTML errors, the
correction of which make it easier for browsers to display the intended
information.

Ah, but wait. I just thought of something: alt.electronics. Back soon...

--
TeGGeR®

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

 

"TeGGeR®" <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote in
news:Xns96699C7F9EAA2tegger@207.14.113.17:

> Jim Yanik <jyanik@abuse.gov.> wrote in
> news:Xns966963506AD29jyanikkuanet@129.250.170.86:
>
>> "TeGGeR®" <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote in
>> news:Xns9668EF412B3E6tegger@207.14.113.17:
>>
>>> Randolph <trash@junkmail.com> wrote in
>>> news:429D4577.2B7930FB@junkmail.com:
>>>
>>>> The
>>>> data sheet shows the diode between emitter and collector.
>>>
>>>
>>> So then it wouldn't make much sense to try and show it.
>>>
>>> Randolph, I'm having trouble understanding the current path through
>>> the transistor. I found this page:
>>> http://nobelprize.org/physics/educat...nction/thegame
>>> . h tml
>>>
>>> It helps me understand more, but I don't get which way the current
>>> goes through the base electrode. I have a suspicion that my diagrams
>>> show the current going the wrong way through the transistor.
>>> http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ignit...ion/index.html
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> There's two current paths;the B-E path and the C-E path(main path).
>> Current flows the opposite direction of the emitter arrow,for both
>> base and collector currents.
>>
>
>
> I'm having trouble getting my mind around this.
>
> I am aware that "flow" is _commonly_ considered to be from the
> positive to negative terminals of the battery, but the electrons
> themselves go in the OTHER direction.
>
> http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ignit...ion/index.html
> http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ignit...adigniter.html
> On these two pages, is the current flow through the transistors
> correctly depicted? Nobody has answered that question yet.
>

The electrons are what's doing the moving,and they flow from neg to pos.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

 

Jim Yanik <jyanik@abuse.gov.> wrote in
news:Xns966963506AD29jyanikkuanet@129.250.170.86:

> "TeGGeR®" <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote in
> news:Xns9668EF412B3E6tegger@207.14.113.17:
>
>> Randolph <trash@junkmail.com> wrote in
>> news:429D4577.2B7930FB@junkmail.com:
>>
>>> The
>>> data sheet shows the diode between emitter and collector.
>>
>>
>> So then it wouldn't make much sense to try and show it.
>>
>> Randolph, I'm having trouble understanding the current path through
>> the transistor. I found this page:
>> http://nobelprize.org/physics/educat...nction/thegame.
>> h tml
>>
>> It helps me understand more, but I don't get which way the current
>> goes through the base electrode. I have a suspicion that my diagrams
>> show the current going the wrong way through the transistor.
>> http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ignit...ion/index.html
>>
>>
>>
>
> There's two current paths;the B-E path and the C-E path(main path).
> Current flows the opposite direction of the emitter arrow,for both
> base and collector currents.
>


I'm having trouble getting my mind around this.

I am aware that "flow" is _commonly_ considered to be from the positive to
negative terminals of the battery, but the electrons themselves go in the
OTHER direction.

http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ignit...ion/index.html
http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ignit...adigniter.html
On these two pages, is the current flow through the transistors correctly
depicted? Nobody has answered that question yet.

--
TeGGeR®

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

 

"TeGGeR®" <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote in
news:Xns9668EF412B3E6tegger@207.14.113.17:

> Randolph <trash@junkmail.com> wrote in
> news:429D4577.2B7930FB@junkmail.com:
>
>> The
>> data sheet shows the diode between emitter and collector.
>
>
> So then it wouldn't make much sense to try and show it.
>
> Randolph, I'm having trouble understanding the current path through
> the transistor. I found this page:
> http://nobelprize.org/physics/educat...tion/thegame.h
> tml
>
> It helps me understand more, but I don't get which way the current
> goes through the base electrode. I have a suspicion that my diagrams
> show the current going the wrong way through the transistor.
> http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ignit...ion/index.html
>
>
>

There's two current paths;the B-E path and the C-E path(main path).
Current flows the opposite direction of the emitter arrow,for both base and
collector currents.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

 

dold@XReXXIgnit.usenet.us.com wrote in news:d7kice$pvn$2@blue.rahul.net:

> In rec.autos.makers.honda jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote:
>> Kevin McMurtrie wrote:
>>> Here are oscilloscope traces of an ignition coil with and without a
>>> capacitor:
>>>
>>> http://www.pixelmemory.us/Photos/Nerd/flyback/
>
>> awesome! that one without capacitor is /real/ ugly...
>
> It reminds me of my Mazda rotary with points.



I had a '74 RX-4 Coupe!


> I could see the dwell
> begin to take up too much time as the RPM got higher.
>


You guys...I swear...

If the subject gets any more high-flown, it's gonna head for outer space.

This is excellent info. Now I've got to make another page: More detail for
the Electronics Whiz.

--
TeGGeR®

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

 

Randolph <trash@junkmail.com> wrote in news:429D4577.2B7930FB@junkmail.com:

> The
> data sheet shows the diode between emitter and collector.


So then it wouldn't make much sense to try and show it.

Randolph, I'm having trouble understanding the current path through the
transistor. I found this page:
http://nobelprize.org/physics/educat...n/thegame.html

It helps me understand more, but I don't get which way the current goes
through the base electrode. I have a suspicion that my diagrams show the
current going the wrong way through the transistor.
http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ignit...ion/index.html



--
TeGGeR®

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

 

Randolph <trash@junkmail.com> wrote in news:429D4577.2B7930FB@junkmail.com:

>
> "TeGGeR®" wrote:
>>
>> Got a URL or a pic? I'd like to add that diode.
>>
>> The pics I found showed resistors, but no diodes.
>
> I have looked long and hard at the photos of the ignitor. The darlington
> device is definitely from STM (http:/www.stm.com). The part number is
> hard to decipher, but I am quite certain the first line of the part
> number is BUxy41. I can't for the life of me see if "x" is actually a
> character or just picture noise. The "y" looks like an "8" or a "9". The
> second line of the part number almost certainly is "ZT". This is
> consistent with "BU941ZT", which is an actual STM part number with a
> package type like the one in the ignitor photo. The description is "HIGH
> VOLTAGE IGNITION COIL DRIVER NPN POWER TRANSISTOR". See
> http://www.st.com/stonline/books/ascii/docs/5288.htm for details. The
> data sheet is at http://www.st.com/stonline/books/pdf/docs/5288.pdf. The
> data sheet shows the diode between emitter and collector.

The diode is INTERNAL to the transistor package.
Probably on the same substrate as the xstr.
>
> The IC in the photo looks like it has part number U2226B, and a good
> guess is that the TFK in the first line stand for Telefunken, a German
> semiconductor manufacturer later renamed TEMIC and eventually bought by
> Vishay. I have not found any data sheet for the U2226B, but I believe it
> is an opto-coupler.
>

I found ICs that were specifically designed for ignition control and
driving the Darlingtons,but none with the same pin count of the IC
pictured,nor any similarity to its part number.
I do not believe it's an optocoupler,but a full control IC.Probably with
circuitry to square up(shape) the drive pulse,and provide enough drive
current,and IIRC,the ICs monitored and regulated coil current.(that would
enable faster switching)

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

 

In rec.autos.makers.honda jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote:
> Kevin McMurtrie wrote:
>> Here are oscilloscope traces of an ignition coil with and without a
>> capacitor:
>>
>> http://www.pixelmemory.us/Photos/Nerd/flyback/

> awesome! that one without capacitor is /real/ ugly...

It reminds me of my Mazda rotary with points. I could see the dwell begin
to take up too much time as the RPM got higher.

--
---
Clarence A Dold - Hidden Valley (Lake County) CA USA 38.8,-122.5

 

Kevin McMurtrie wrote:
> Here are oscilloscope traces of an ignition coil with and without a
> capacitor:
>
> http://www.pixelmemory.us/Photos/Nerd/flyback/

awesome! that one without capacitor is /real/ ugly...

 

Here are oscilloscope traces of an ignition coil with and without a
capacitor:

http://www.pixelmemory.us/Photos/Nerd/flyback/

 

"TeGGeR®" wrote:
>
> Got a URL or a pic? I'd like to add that diode.
>
> The pics I found showed resistors, but no diodes.

I have looked long and hard at the photos of the ignitor. The darlington
device is definitely from STM (http:/www.stm.com). The part number is
hard to decipher, but I am quite certain the first line of the part
number is BUxy41. I can't for the life of me see if "x" is actually a
character or just picture noise. The "y" looks like an "8" or a "9". The
second line of the part number almost certainly is "ZT". This is
consistent with "BU941ZT", which is an actual STM part number with a
package type like the one in the ignitor photo. The description is "HIGH
VOLTAGE IGNITION COIL DRIVER NPN POWER TRANSISTOR". See
http://www.st.com/stonline/books/ascii/docs/5288.htm for details. The
data sheet is at http://www.st.com/stonline/books/pdf/docs/5288.pdf. The
data sheet shows the diode between emitter and collector.

The IC in the photo looks like it has part number U2226B, and a good
guess is that the TFK in the first line stand for Telefunken, a German
semiconductor manufacturer later renamed TEMIC and eventually bought by
Vishay. I have not found any data sheet for the U2226B, but I believe it
is an opto-coupler.

 

Kevin McMurtrie <mcmurtri@dslextreme.com> wrote in
news:mcmurtri-579156.17160130052005@corp-radius.supernews.com:

> In article <Xns966440B3E088tegger@207.14.113.17>,
> "TeGGeR®" <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote:
>
>> After a long passage of time and much dithering, I've finally
>> finished two big updates.
>>
>> 1) New section on igniter function
>> http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ignit.../howworks.html
>>
>> 2) Coil failure
>> http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/start...s.html#badcoil
>>
>> Any critical advice is welcome. I'm not an electronics engineer, so
>> there are surely mistakes somewhere.
>
> A little adjustment to the graphics:
>
> The darlington pair is the switch. Pin 3 would be the pulses from the
> ECU or magnetic pickup. The tach connects either to the primary
> winding (which makes radio interference) or to whatever drives the
> transistors.


Take a look at this, from Graham W.
http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/misc/rov-ign.jpg


>
> And yes, the ignitor gets flyback voltage too. Some electronic
> ignition systems still need the condenser because the flyback voltage
> on the primary side otherwise rises extremely rapidly. It can rise
> faster than some high voltage transistors can turn off and it can even
> rise before the spark plug discharges the energy.


So how would I show that in the graphic? If there's a cap somewhere to
blunt the flyback, I'd like to have that shown.

--
TeGGeR®

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

 

Kevin McMurtrie wrote:
> In article <k6GdnTKjuPj7LQbfRVn-hw@speakeasy.net>,
> jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote:
>
>
>>Kevin McMurtrie wrote:
>>
>>>In article <Xns966440B3E088tegger@207.14.113.17>,
>>> "TeGGeR®" <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>After a long passage of time and much dithering, I've finally finished two
>>>>big updates.
>>>>
>>>>1) New section on igniter function
>>>>http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ignit.../howworks.html
>>>>
>>>>2) Coil failure
>>>>http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/start...s.html#badcoil
>>>>
>>>>Any critical advice is welcome. I'm not an electronics engineer, so there
>>>>are surely mistakes somewhere.
>>>
>>>
>>>A little adjustment to the graphics:
>>>
>>>The darlington pair is the switch. Pin 3 would be the pulses from the
>>>ECU or magnetic pickup. The tach connects either to the primary winding
>>>(which makes radio interference) or to whatever drives the transistors.
>>>
>>>And yes, the ignitor gets flyback voltage too. Some electronic ignition
>>>systems still need the condenser because the flyback voltage on the
>>>primary side otherwise rises extremely rapidly. It can rise faster than
>>>some high voltage transistors can turn off and it can even rise before
>>>the spark plug discharges the energy.
>>
>>interesting. i had 2 igniters fail inside a year on my 89 civic &
>>subsequently discovered that the condenser had failed. presumably,
>>excess flyback was responsible. but, my 91 crx has no condenser at all,
>>from factory. what's up with that? works fine, no r.f problems. both
>>have the same igniter. any thoughts?
>
>
> The coil might have an internal condenser or a small shorted winding.
> An oscilloscope on the primary coil would show you what's going on.
>
> I'm doing this from memory so the shape might be a little off:
>
>
> v- Spark plug discharge
>
> |
> |
> |#
> |##
> | |
> | |
> | |
> --- | --------------------------
> -----------
>
> ^ ^ ^ flyback
> | charge
> open circuit
>
>
> Without a condenser, the initial spike is much higher and it rises so
> steeply that it might not produce a visible trace on the oscilloscope.
>
>
>
> |
>
>
> .
>
>
> .#
> ##
> |
> |
> |
> --- --------------------------
> -----------

makes sense. i have an old scope so i can check between the two. thanks!

 

In article <k6GdnTKjuPj7LQbfRVn-hw@speakeasy.net>,
jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote:

> Kevin McMurtrie wrote:
> > In article <Xns966440B3E088tegger@207.14.113.17>,
> > "TeGGeR®" <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote:
> >
> >
> >>After a long passage of time and much dithering, I've finally finished two
> >>big updates.
> >>
> >>1) New section on igniter function
> >>http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ignit.../howworks.html
> >>
> >>2) Coil failure
> >>http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/start...s.html#badcoil
> >>
> >>Any critical advice is welcome. I'm not an electronics engineer, so there
> >>are surely mistakes somewhere.
> >
> >
> > A little adjustment to the graphics:
> >
> > The darlington pair is the switch. Pin 3 would be the pulses from the
> > ECU or magnetic pickup. The tach connects either to the primary winding
> > (which makes radio interference) or to whatever drives the transistors.
> >
> > And yes, the ignitor gets flyback voltage too. Some electronic ignition
> > systems still need the condenser because the flyback voltage on the
> > primary side otherwise rises extremely rapidly. It can rise faster than
> > some high voltage transistors can turn off and it can even rise before
> > the spark plug discharges the energy.
>
> interesting. i had 2 igniters fail inside a year on my 89 civic &
> subsequently discovered that the condenser had failed. presumably,
> excess flyback was responsible. but, my 91 crx has no condenser at all,
> from factory. what's up with that? works fine, no r.f problems. both
> have the same igniter. any thoughts?

The coil might have an internal condenser or a small shorted winding.
An oscilloscope on the primary coil would show you what's going on.

I'm doing this from memory so the shape might be a little off:


v- Spark plug discharge

|
|
|#
|##
| |
| |
| |
--- | --------------------------
-----------

^ ^ ^ flyback
| charge
open circuit


Without a condenser, the initial spike is much higher and it rises so
steeply that it might not produce a visible trace on the oscilloscope.



|