In article <k6GdnTKjuPj7LQbfRVn-hw@speakeasy.net>,
jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote:

> Kevin McMurtrie wrote:
> > In article <Xns966440B3E088tegger@207.14.113.17>,
> > "TeGGeR®" <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote:
> >
> >
> >>After a long passage of time and much dithering, I've finally finished two
> >>big updates.
> >>
> >>1) New section on igniter function
> >>http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ignit.../howworks.html
> >>
> >>2) Coil failure
> >>http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/start...s.html#badcoil
> >>
> >>Any critical advice is welcome. I'm not an electronics engineer, so there
> >>are surely mistakes somewhere.
> >
> >
> > A little adjustment to the graphics:
> >
> > The darlington pair is the switch. Pin 3 would be the pulses from the
> > ECU or magnetic pickup. The tach connects either to the primary winding
> > (which makes radio interference) or to whatever drives the transistors.
> >
> > And yes, the ignitor gets flyback voltage too. Some electronic ignition
> > systems still need the condenser because the flyback voltage on the
> > primary side otherwise rises extremely rapidly. It can rise faster than
> > some high voltage transistors can turn off and it can even rise before
> > the spark plug discharges the energy.
>
> interesting. i had 2 igniters fail inside a year on my 89 civic &
> subsequently discovered that the condenser had failed. presumably,
> excess flyback was responsible. but, my 91 crx has no condenser at all,
> from factory. what's up with that? works fine, no r.f problems. both
> have the same igniter. any thoughts?

The coil might have an internal condenser or a small shorted winding.
An oscilloscope on the primary coil would show you what's going on.

I'm doing this from memory so the shape might be a little off:


v- Spark plug discharge

|
|
|#
|##
| |
| |
| |
--- | --------------------------
-----------

^ ^ ^ flyback
| charge
open circuit


Without a condenser, the initial spike is much higher and it rises so
steeply that it might not produce a visible trace on the oscilloscope.



|

 

Jim Yanik <jyanik@abuse.gov.> wrote in
news:Xns96677D9AC821Bjyanikkuanet@129.250.170.84:


> I looked up the Darlington transistor that is depicted on the Honda
> igniter,and it has an internal diode to shunt the flyback voltage around
> it,to protect the Darlington.
>


Got a URL or a pic? I'd like to add that diode.

The pics I found showed resistors, but no diodes.

--
TeGGeR®

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

 

Kevin McMurtrie <mcmurtri@dslextreme.com> wrote in
news:mcmurtri-579156.17160130052005@corp-radius.supernews.com:

> In article <Xns966440B3E088tegger@207.14.113.17>,
> "TeGGeR®" <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote:
>
>> After a long passage of time and much dithering, I've finally
>> finished two big updates.
>>
>> 1) New section on igniter function
>> http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ignit.../howworks.html
>>
>> 2) Coil failure
>> http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/start...s.html#badcoil
>>
>> Any critical advice is welcome. I'm not an electronics engineer, so
>> there are surely mistakes somewhere.
>
> A little adjustment to the graphics:
>
> The darlington pair is the switch. Pin 3 would be the pulses from the
> ECU or magnetic pickup. The tach connects either to the primary
> winding (which makes radio interference) or to whatever drives the
> transistors.
>
> And yes, the ignitor gets flyback voltage too. Some electronic
> ignition systems still need the condenser because the flyback voltage
> on the primary side otherwise rises extremely rapidly. It can rise
> faster than some high voltage transistors can turn off and it can even
> rise before the spark plug discharges the energy.
>

I looked up the Darlington transistor that is depicted on the Honda
igniter,and it has an internal diode to shunt the flyback voltage around
it,to protect the Darlington.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

 

TeGGeR® wrote:
> Kevin McMurtrie <mcmurtri@dslextreme.com> wrote in news:mcmurtri-
> 8690B7.21204230052005@corp-radius.supernews.com:
>
>
>
>>There's a lot more in the Ignition Control Module than a darlington
>>pair.
>
>
>
> True. And I see that in these photos.
> http://www.gcw.org.uk/rover/igniter.htm
>
> Here's another page to critique:
> http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ignit...adigniter.html

looks like a good summary. obviously, as graham's pics show, there's
more to the igiter than the darlington, but what you show is a good
interpretation of the result. it's also worth mentioning that in both
my igniter failures, there's been no code. terminal 4 is behaving as
per normal, [hence no ecu] but the igniter output is failed hard "on"
and switching the input makes no difference to output.

i think it's also worth showing the condenser & mentioning its role too.
it's a $25 part & a pita to replace, but mine failed with a near dead
short so even before the igniter failed, my car had been chronically
weak & the exhaust way sooty because there was no strenght to the spark.

>
>
>
>>As I see it:
>>
>>1: Tach output
>
>
>
> It's there.
>
>
>
>>2: Coil output
>
>
>
> It's there
>
>
>
>>3: +12V
>
>
>
> It's there
>
>
>
>>4: TDC pickup
>
>
> According to the diagrams I'm seeing, such as
> http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/misc/rov-ign.jpg
> #4 goes directly to the ECU. I think the TDC pickup goes directly to the
> ECU as well.
>
>
>
>>Case: GND
>
>
>
> Yes, but not really nesessary to show in this context.
>
>
>
>
>>The TDC sensor produces a curved waveform. Integrating the form
>>(high-pass) can produce the advanced timing needed for dwell.
>>
>>
>>
>>>>And yes, the ignitor gets flyback voltage too. Some electronic
>>>>ignition systems still need the condenser because the flyback voltage
>>>>on the primary side otherwise rises extremely rapidly. It can rise
>>>>faster than some high voltage transistors can turn off and it can even
>>>>rise before the spark plug discharges the energy.
>>>
>>>
>>>So how would I show that in the graphic? If there's a cap somewhere to
>>>blunt the flyback, I'd like to have that shown.
>>
>>Maybe Jim Beam can take a photo of his o-scope. My new Honda has a coil
>>on top of each spark plug so I'm not sure I can tap into the primary
>>coil. I have a circuit that drives coils but it's not quite the same as
>>a car ignition. Want a picture of that trace?
>>
>
>
>
> Sure! Thanks.
>
>
>

 

jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote in
news:qtOdnaMXMZGfdwbfRVn-3w@speakeasy.net:


>
> i too was under the impression that the igniter handled dwell because
> i know that happens with some other ignitions, but it seems that with
> the honda, all that's taken care of by the ecu. #4 is the for the
> ecu's output signal. the igniter just switches as soon as it gets
> signal.
>
> but that said, i do have the gear to test that properly this time...
> i have a spare working igniter - i'll do some more homework.


That would really be appreciated, thanks.


--
TeGGeR®

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

 

Kevin McMurtrie <mcmurtri@dslextreme.com> wrote in news:mcmurtri-
8690B7.21204230052005@corp-radius.supernews.com:


> There's a lot more in the Ignition Control Module than a darlington
> pair.


True. And I see that in these photos.
http://www.gcw.org.uk/rover/igniter.htm

Here's another page to critique:
http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ignit...adigniter.html


> As I see it:
>
> 1: Tach output


It's there.


> 2: Coil output


It's there


> 3: +12V


It's there


> 4: TDC pickup

According to the diagrams I'm seeing, such as
http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/misc/rov-ign.jpg
#4 goes directly to the ECU. I think the TDC pickup goes directly to the
ECU as well.


> Case: GND


Yes, but not really nesessary to show in this context.



> The TDC sensor produces a curved waveform. Integrating the form
> (high-pass) can produce the advanced timing needed for dwell.
>
>
>> >
>> > And yes, the ignitor gets flyback voltage too. Some electronic
>> > ignition systems still need the condenser because the flyback voltage
>> > on the primary side otherwise rises extremely rapidly. It can rise
>> > faster than some high voltage transistors can turn off and it can even
>> > rise before the spark plug discharges the energy.
>>
>>
>> So how would I show that in the graphic? If there's a cap somewhere to
>> blunt the flyback, I'd like to have that shown.
>
> Maybe Jim Beam can take a photo of his o-scope. My new Honda has a coil
> on top of each spark plug so I'm not sure I can tap into the primary
> coil. I have a circuit that drives coils but it's not quite the same as
> a car ignition. Want a picture of that trace?
>


Sure! Thanks.



--
TeGGeR®

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

 

Kevin McMurtrie wrote:
> In article <Xns9666EF231308Dtegger@207.14.113.17>,
> "TeGGeR®" <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote:
>
>
>>Kevin McMurtrie <mcmurtri@dslextreme.com> wrote in
>>news:mcmurtri-579156.17160130052005@corp-radius.supernews.com:
>>
>>
>>>In article <Xns966440B3E088tegger@207.14.113.17>,
>>> "TeGGeR®" <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>After a long passage of time and much dithering, I've finally
>>>>finished two big updates.
>>>>
>>>>1) New section on igniter function
>>>>http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ignit.../howworks.html
>>>>
>>>>2) Coil failure
>>>>http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/start...s.html#badcoil
>>>>
>>>>Any critical advice is welcome. I'm not an electronics engineer, so
>>>>there are surely mistakes somewhere.
>>>
>>>A little adjustment to the graphics:
>>>
>>>The darlington pair is the switch. Pin 3 would be the pulses from the
>>>ECU or magnetic pickup. The tach connects either to the primary
>>>winding (which makes radio interference) or to whatever drives the
>>>transistors.
>>
>>
>>Take a look at this, from Graham W.
>>http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/misc/rov-ign.jpg
>>
>
>
> There's a lot more in the Ignition Control Module than a darlington
> pair. As I see it:
>
> 1: Tach output
> 2: Coil output
> 3: +12V
> 4: TDC pickup
> Case: GND
>
> The TDC sensor produces a curved waveform. Integrating the form
> (high-pass) can produce the advanced timing needed for dwell.

i too was under the impression that the igniter handled dwell because i
know that happens with some other ignitions, but it seems that with the
honda, all that's taken care of by the ecu. #4 is the for the ecu's
output signal. the igniter just switches as soon as it gets signal.

but that said, i do have the gear to test that properly this time... i
have a spare working igniter - i'll do some more homework.

>
>
>
>>>And yes, the ignitor gets flyback voltage too. Some electronic
>>>ignition systems still need the condenser because the flyback voltage
>>>on the primary side otherwise rises extremely rapidly. It can rise
>>>faster than some high voltage transistors can turn off and it can even
>>>rise before the spark plug discharges the energy.
>>
>>
>>So how would I show that in the graphic? If there's a cap somewhere to
>>blunt the flyback, I'd like to have that shown.
>
>
> Maybe Jim Beam can take a photo of his o-scope. My new Honda has a coil
> on top of each spark plug so I'm not sure I can tap into the primary
> coil. I have a circuit that drives coils but it's not quite the same as
> a car ignition. Want a picture of that trace?

 

In article <Xns9666EF231308Dtegger@207.14.113.17>,
"TeGGeR®" <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote:

> Kevin McMurtrie <mcmurtri@dslextreme.com> wrote in
> news:mcmurtri-579156.17160130052005@corp-radius.supernews.com:
>
> > In article <Xns966440B3E088tegger@207.14.113.17>,
> > "TeGGeR®" <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote:
> >
> >> After a long passage of time and much dithering, I've finally
> >> finished two big updates.
> >>
> >> 1) New section on igniter function
> >> http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ignit.../howworks.html
> >>
> >> 2) Coil failure
> >> http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/start...s.html#badcoil
> >>
> >> Any critical advice is welcome. I'm not an electronics engineer, so
> >> there are surely mistakes somewhere.
> >
> > A little adjustment to the graphics:
> >
> > The darlington pair is the switch. Pin 3 would be the pulses from the
> > ECU or magnetic pickup. The tach connects either to the primary
> > winding (which makes radio interference) or to whatever drives the
> > transistors.
>
>
> Take a look at this, from Graham W.
> http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/misc/rov-ign.jpg
>

There's a lot more in the Ignition Control Module than a darlington
pair. As I see it:

1: Tach output
2: Coil output
3: +12V
4: TDC pickup
Case: GND

The TDC sensor produces a curved waveform. Integrating the form
(high-pass) can produce the advanced timing needed for dwell.


> >
> > And yes, the ignitor gets flyback voltage too. Some electronic
> > ignition systems still need the condenser because the flyback voltage
> > on the primary side otherwise rises extremely rapidly. It can rise
> > faster than some high voltage transistors can turn off and it can even
> > rise before the spark plug discharges the energy.
>
>
> So how would I show that in the graphic? If there's a cap somewhere to
> blunt the flyback, I'd like to have that shown.

Maybe Jim Beam can take a photo of his o-scope. My new Honda has a coil
on top of each spark plug so I'm not sure I can tap into the primary
coil. I have a circuit that drives coils but it's not quite the same as
a car ignition. Want a picture of that trace?

 

Kevin McMurtrie <mcmurtri@dslextreme.com> wrote in
news:mcmurtri-579156.17160130052005@corp-radius.supernews.com:

> In article <Xns966440B3E088tegger@207.14.113.17>,
> "TeGGeR®" <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote:
>
>> After a long passage of time and much dithering, I've finally
>> finished two big updates.
>>
>> 1) New section on igniter function
>> http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ignit.../howworks.html
>>
>> 2) Coil failure
>> http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/start...s.html#badcoil
>>
>> Any critical advice is welcome. I'm not an electronics engineer, so
>> there are surely mistakes somewhere.
>
> A little adjustment to the graphics:
>
> The darlington pair is the switch. Pin 3 would be the pulses from the
> ECU or magnetic pickup. The tach connects either to the primary
> winding (which makes radio interference) or to whatever drives the
> transistors.


Take a look at this, from Graham W.
http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/misc/rov-ign.jpg


>
> And yes, the ignitor gets flyback voltage too. Some electronic
> ignition systems still need the condenser because the flyback voltage
> on the primary side otherwise rises extremely rapidly. It can rise
> faster than some high voltage transistors can turn off and it can even
> rise before the spark plug discharges the energy.


So how would I show that in the graphic? If there's a cap somewhere to
blunt the flyback, I'd like to have that shown.

--
TeGGeR®

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

 

Kevin McMurtrie wrote:
> In article <k6GdnTKjuPj7LQbfRVn-hw@speakeasy.net>,
> jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote:
>
>
>>Kevin McMurtrie wrote:
>>
>>>In article <Xns966440B3E088tegger@207.14.113.17>,
>>> "TeGGeR®" <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>After a long passage of time and much dithering, I've finally finished two
>>>>big updates.
>>>>
>>>>1) New section on igniter function
>>>>http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ignit.../howworks.html
>>>>
>>>>2) Coil failure
>>>>http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/start...s.html#badcoil
>>>>
>>>>Any critical advice is welcome. I'm not an electronics engineer, so there
>>>>are surely mistakes somewhere.
>>>
>>>
>>>A little adjustment to the graphics:
>>>
>>>The darlington pair is the switch. Pin 3 would be the pulses from the
>>>ECU or magnetic pickup. The tach connects either to the primary winding
>>>(which makes radio interference) or to whatever drives the transistors.
>>>
>>>And yes, the ignitor gets flyback voltage too. Some electronic ignition
>>>systems still need the condenser because the flyback voltage on the
>>>primary side otherwise rises extremely rapidly. It can rise faster than
>>>some high voltage transistors can turn off and it can even rise before
>>>the spark plug discharges the energy.
>>
>>interesting. i had 2 igniters fail inside a year on my 89 civic &
>>subsequently discovered that the condenser had failed. presumably,
>>excess flyback was responsible. but, my 91 crx has no condenser at all,
>>from factory. what's up with that? works fine, no r.f problems. both
>>have the same igniter. any thoughts?
>
>
> The coil might have an internal condenser or a small shorted winding.
> An oscilloscope on the primary coil would show you what's going on.
>
> I'm doing this from memory so the shape might be a little off:
>
>
> v- Spark plug discharge
>
> |
> |
> |#
> |##
> | |
> | |
> | |
> --- | --------------------------
> -----------
>
> ^ ^ ^ flyback
> | charge
> open circuit
>
>
> Without a condenser, the initial spike is much higher and it rises so
> steeply that it might not produce a visible trace on the oscilloscope.
>
>
>
> |
>
>
> .
>
>
> .#
> ##
> |
> |
> |
> --- --------------------------
> -----------

makes sense. i have an old scope so i can check between the two. thanks!

 

Kevin McMurtrie wrote:
> In article <Xns966440B3E088tegger@207.14.113.17>,
> "TeGGeR®" <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote:
>
>
>>After a long passage of time and much dithering, I've finally finished two
>>big updates.
>>
>>1) New section on igniter function
>>http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ignit.../howworks.html
>>
>>2) Coil failure
>>http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/start...s.html#badcoil
>>
>>Any critical advice is welcome. I'm not an electronics engineer, so there
>>are surely mistakes somewhere.
>
>
> A little adjustment to the graphics:
>
> The darlington pair is the switch. Pin 3 would be the pulses from the
> ECU or magnetic pickup. The tach connects either to the primary winding
> (which makes radio interference) or to whatever drives the transistors.
>
> And yes, the ignitor gets flyback voltage too. Some electronic ignition
> systems still need the condenser because the flyback voltage on the
> primary side otherwise rises extremely rapidly. It can rise faster than
> some high voltage transistors can turn off and it can even rise before
> the spark plug discharges the energy.

interesting. i had 2 igniters fail inside a year on my 89 civic &
subsequently discovered that the condenser had failed. presumably,
excess flyback was responsible. but, my 91 crx has no condenser at all,
from factory. what's up with that? works fine, no r.f problems. both
have the same igniter. any thoughts?

 

In article <Xns96699C7F9EAA2tegger@207.14.113.17>,
"TeGGeR®" <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote:

> Jim Yanik <jyanik@abuse.gov.> wrote in
> news:Xns966963506AD29jyanikkuanet@129.250.170.86:
>
> > "TeGGeR®" <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote in
> > news:Xns9668EF412B3E6tegger@207.14.113.17:
> >
> >> Randolph <trash@junkmail.com> wrote in
> >> news:429D4577.2B7930FB@junkmail.com:
> >>
> >>> The
> >>> data sheet shows the diode between emitter and collector.
> >>
> >>
> >> So then it wouldn't make much sense to try and show it.
> >>
> >> Randolph, I'm having trouble understanding the current path through
> >> the transistor. I found this page:
> >> http://nobelprize.org/physics/educat...nction/thegame.
> >> h tml
> >>
> >> It helps me understand more, but I don't get which way the current
> >> goes through the base electrode. I have a suspicion that my diagrams
> >> show the current going the wrong way through the transistor.
> >> http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ignit...ion/index.html
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> > There's two current paths;the B-E path and the C-E path(main path).
> > Current flows the opposite direction of the emitter arrow,for both
> > base and collector currents.
> >
>
>
> I'm having trouble getting my mind around this.
>
> I am aware that "flow" is _commonly_ considered to be from the positive to
> negative terminals of the battery, but the electrons themselves go in the
> OTHER direction.

Most materials have an electron flow, which goes from negative to
positive. I've heard that some materials can have a proton flow. Both
may exist in a vacuum.

Current flow arrows on diagrams go from positive to negative.

Bipolar transistors are current amplifiers. When a current flows
through the base-emitter diode junction, a stronger current is allowed
to flow from the collector to the emitter. The C-E junction is .2 to .4
volts when the B-E junction is saturated (~.65 V). The current gain for
a power transistor is usually 10 to 100. Darlington pairs have that
gain squared. Gains are not at all consistent so they're usually
specified as a range.

MOSFETs are tiny voltage controlled amplifiers. Absolutely zero static
current is required to turn them on or off; just the capacitance
current. Because of their infinite current gain, millions may be
paralleled on a single chip to satisfy any current load. Their voltage
gain is very low - a typical gate threshold voltage is 4V and a typical
gate saturation voltage is 10V. There's no voltage drop between the
source and drain, only resistance. High voltage capability makes each
MOSFET junction larger and dramatically increases resistance.

IGBTs are similar to bipolar transistors but with an insulated gate like
a MOSFET. They have the high voltage capacity of bipolars but need no
driving current like a MOSFET. They're very slow so they're usually
limited to controlling industrial motors. (Honda hybrid cars use them
for their motors.)


> http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ignit...ion/index.html
> http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ignit...adigniter.html
> On these two pages, is the current flow through the transistors correctly
> depicted? Nobody has answered that question yet.

 

Jim Yanik <jyanik@abuse.gov.> wrote in
news:Xns966A6FCED7938jyanikkuanet@129.250.170.86:


>
> think of a Y water pipe.One arm of the Y is smaller than the other.But
> the total water flow thru the bottom of the Y divides and part passes
> thru the left arm and part thru the right arm.You can control how much
> water passes thru the right arm by adjusting the flow thru the left
> arm.(but the water pipe does not have any current gain)


So then my drawings are NOT correct. I need to show the emitter (closest to
the coil) "switched off", and not the collector (farthest from the coil).
Right? Or does it matter since the effect is the same?

--
TeGGeR®

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

 

"TeGGeR®" <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote in
news:Xns966AD347EB6D4tegger@207.14.113.17:

> Jim Yanik <jyanik@abuse.gov.> wrote in
> news:Xns966A6FCED7938jyanikkuanet@129.250.170.86:
>
>
>>
>> think of a Y water pipe.One arm of the Y is smaller than the
>> other.But the total water flow thru the bottom of the Y divides and
>> part passes thru the left arm and part thru the right arm.You can
>> control how much water passes thru the right arm by adjusting the
>> flow thru the left arm.(but the water pipe does not have any current
>> gain)
>
>
> So then my drawings are NOT correct. I need to show the emitter
> (closest to the coil) "switched off", and not the collector (farthest
> from the coil). Right? Or does it matter since the effect is the same?
>

For a NPN transistor,the collector should go to the coil,and the emitter to
ground. The other end of the coil goes to +12V.
The internal diode shunts the back EMF around the transistor to
ground,protecting the transistor.


I just looked at your schematic,and it appears correct.except that terminal
3 of the Igniter module does not go straight to the Darlington base,it goes
to the IC that controls the Darlington.You need a rectangle indicating the
control IC between the Pin 3 and the Darlington base.Pin 1(tach drive)
probably goes to the control IC,too,certainly not to ground,Pin 4.

(the emitter of the Darlington probably goes to the control IC,too,then
thru a small value resistor[<1 ohm] for current monitoring by the IC,then
to ground.)

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

 

"TeGGeR®" <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote in message
news:Xns966AD347EB6D4tegger@207.14.113.17...
> Jim Yanik <jyanik@abuse.gov.> wrote in
> news:Xns966A6FCED7938jyanikkuanet@129.250.170.86:
>
>
>>
>> think of a Y water pipe.One arm of the Y is smaller than the other.But
>> the total water flow thru the bottom of the Y divides and part passes
>> thru the left arm and part thru the right arm.You can control how much
>> water passes thru the right arm by adjusting the flow thru the left
>> arm.(but the water pipe does not have any current gain)
>
>
> So then my drawings are NOT correct. I need to show the emitter (closest
> to
> the coil) "switched off", and not the collector (farthest from the coil).
> Right? Or does it matter since the effect is the same?
>
> --
> TeGGeR®
>
> The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
> www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

The emitter is the neutral part of it, the part the collector gets switched
to.

Maybe the easiest way to think of it is as a relay, where the emitter is one
end of the winding and one of the contacts. The base is the other end of the
winding and the collector is the other normally open contact. When current
is run through the "winding" (from the base to the emitter) the collector
closes the circuit to the emitter.

There are a few technical details like polarity (the collector and base both
have to be positive with respect to the emitter) and the base resistance (so
low the current has to be limited by external resistance), but the operation
in an ignitor is just like a very fast relay. In other circuits it isn't
used as a relay, and the collector current is varied more proportionately to
the base current.

Mike

 

Jim Yanik <jyanik@abuse.gov.> wrote in
news:Xns966AD818247EBjyanikkuanet@129.250.170.85:


>
> For a NPN transistor,the collector should go to the coil,and the
> emitter to ground. The other end of the coil goes to +12V.
> The internal diode shunts the back EMF around the transistor to
> ground,protecting the transistor.
>
>
> I just looked at your schematic,and it appears correct.except that
> terminal 3 of the Igniter module does not go straight to the
> Darlington base,it goes to the IC that controls the Darlington.You
> need a rectangle indicating the control IC between the Pin 3 and the
> Darlington base.Pin 1(tach drive) probably goes to the control
> IC,too,certainly not to ground,Pin 4.
>
> (the emitter of the Darlington probably goes to the control
> IC,too,then thru a small value resistor[<1 ohm] for current monitoring
> by the IC,then to ground.)
>


More information here than I've gotten yet. Thanks.

--
TeGGeR®

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

 

"TeGGeR®" <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote in
news:Xns966AE4D412B10tegger@207.14.113.17:

> Jim Yanik <jyanik@abuse.gov.> wrote in
> news:Xns966AD818247EBjyanikkuanet@129.250.170.85:
>
>
>>
>> For a NPN transistor,the collector should go to the coil,and the
>> emitter to ground. The other end of the coil goes to +12V.
>> The internal diode shunts the back EMF around the transistor to
>> ground,protecting the transistor.
>>
>>
>> I just looked at your schematic,and it appears correct.except that
>> terminal 3 of the Igniter module does not go straight to the
>> Darlington base,it goes to the IC that controls the Darlington.You
>> need a rectangle indicating the control IC between the Pin 3 and the
>> Darlington base.Pin 1(tach drive) probably goes to the control
>> IC,too,certainly not to ground,Pin 4.
>>
>> (the emitter of the Darlington probably goes to the control
>> IC,too,then thru a small value resistor[<1 ohm] for current monitoring
>> by the IC,then to ground.)
>>
>
>
> More information here than I've gotten yet. Thanks.
>

Something additional I thought of after I sent the last post(sorry!);
The ECU does not ground the igniter module.It only sends a signal (to the
control IC inside the igniter)for the Darlington to ground the coil.If the
ECU were to be the ground for the igniter,that would mean that the entire
coil current(several amps) would have to travel through the long wire from
igniter to ECU,and the ECU itself would have to switch that high current to
ground,which is the purpose of the igniter.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

 

Jim Yanik <jyanik@abuse.gov.> wrote in
news:Xns966B71542D3A0jyanikkuanet@129.250.170.84:


>
> Something additional I thought of after I sent the last post(sorry!);
> The ECU does not ground the igniter module.It only sends a signal (to
> the control IC inside the igniter)for the Darlington to ground the
> coil.


Then how do you explain this?
http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/misc/rov-ign.jpg
Look a the text immediately below the title.



> If the ECU were to be the ground for the igniter,that would mean
> that the entire coil current(several amps) would have to travel
> through the long wire from igniter to ECU,and the ECU itself would
> have to switch that high current to ground,which is the purpose of the
> igniter.
>


Then I'm still looking for a definitive answer.

--
TeGGeR®

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

 

----- Original Message -----
From: "TeGGeR®" <tegger@tegger.c0m>
Newsgroups: rec.autos.makers.honda,alt.autos.acura,alt.autos.h onda
Sent: Saturday, June 04, 2005 8:37 AM
Subject: Re: Ignition updates to the Unofficial FAQ


> Jim Yanik <jyanik@abuse.gov.> wrote in
> news:Xns966B71542D3A0jyanikkuanet@129.250.170.84:
>
>
>>
>> Something additional I thought of after I sent the last post(sorry!);
>> The ECU does not ground the igniter module.It only sends a signal (to
>> the control IC inside the igniter)for the Darlington to ground the
>> coil.
>
>
> Then how do you explain this?
> http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/misc/rov-ign.jpg
> Look at the text immediately below the title.
>

That was how Jim got into the semantic trap to start with. The ECU supplies
a low current ground to pin 4, which grounds an input on the IC, but the
main ground - the one the coil current flows through - is the one shown in
the lower right corner of the ignitor; the metal body of the ignitor itself.
The current from pin 4 is undoubtedly in the range of 1 ma.

Mike

 

"Michael Pardee" <michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote in
news:qKSdnf1wB6OiTDzfRVn-ow@sedona.net:

> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "TeGGeR®" <tegger@tegger.c0m>
> Newsgroups: rec.autos.makers.honda,alt.autos.acura,alt.autos.h onda
> Sent: Saturday, June 04, 2005 8:37 AM
> Subject: Re: Ignition updates to the Unofficial FAQ
>
>
>> Jim Yanik <jyanik@abuse.gov.> wrote in
>> news:Xns966B71542D3A0jyanikkuanet@129.250.170.84:
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Something additional I thought of after I sent the last
>>> post(sorry!); The ECU does not ground the igniter module.It only
>>> sends a signal (to the control IC inside the igniter)for the
>>> Darlington to ground the coil.
>>
>>
>> Then how do you explain this?
>> http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/misc/rov-ign.jpg
>> Look at the text immediately below the title.
>>
>
> That was how Jim got into the semantic trap to start with. The ECU
> supplies a low current ground to pin 4, which grounds an input on the
> IC, but the main ground - the one the coil current flows through - is
> the one shown in the lower right corner of the ignitor; the metal body
> of the ignitor itself. The current from pin 4 is undoubtedly in the
> range of 1 ma.
>
> Mike
>
>
>

Yes,the ECU signal is a normally HI,LO(ground)-to-enable signal.

Thanks!

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net