Ats/across (carbonetics) Carbon Lsd Impressions
#1
02-01-2007, 06:15 PM
Ats/across (carbonetics) Carbon Lsd Impressions
This January I had Dan's Shop (Torrance, CA) install an ATS-ACROSS Carbon LSD in my 2007 Fit.
[Characteristics of Carbon LSD]
1. More than twicethe differential lock strength of metal LSDs
2. Low initial drag resistance and durability that is more than
5 times greaterthan metal
3. Acceleration control range more than 10 times that of metal LSDs
4. More than 30 times the thermal decomposition resistance of
metal LSDs
5. More than 70 times the service life of metal LSDs
6. Noiselessperformance
7. Compatible with Automatic Transmission Vehicles
1. More than twice the differential lock strength of metal LSDs
Through the use of high- carbon friction material ((mu) expresses the coefficient of friction, and the larger that number, the more slip resistant the material), we are able to achieve dramatically improved differential lock without the sudden slippage characteristic of metal. While accepting a certain amount of differential movement, it continually provides stable, high strength differential locking performance in response to sudden input that is more than twice that obtainable with metal LSDs.
[Explanation]
Coefficient of friction of a metal plate in oil: 0.05~0.15
Coefficient of friction of a carbon plate in oil: 0.25~0.35
...more than twice that offered by metal! Moreover,
the frictional power of carbon gradually increases as the temperature rises due to differential friction.
Compared to metal LSDs, carbon LSDs are soft when they start to work, and you might think that they have weak locking power. In fact, they offer more than twice the differential locking power of metal. LSDs operate in oil (lubricating oil). And the coefficient of friction of a metal plate in oil is 0.05~0.15 (no units). In contrast, carbon plate has a coefficient of friction in oil of 0.25~0.35. This evidence alone explains why carbon, with differential locking performance twice that of metal, locks differential movement strongly.
And the frictional force of carbon plate gradually increases in cornering, where there is only a slight amount of differential movement. Also, you can see how in high-speed cornering, which tends to subject the tires to wear, carbon LSDs offer differential locking performance that is simply unheard of in metal LSDs. In high-speed cornering, the locking performance of metal LSDs typically loses out to tire grip and ends up allowing differential movement. It's been proven in races that because of the high strength differential locking of carbon LSDs that does not allow differential movement, the r.p.m. of the inner wheel, which has decreased traction, and the outer wheel are kept the same, resulting in a tendency for the inside of the inner wheel to be more apt to wear. (This issue has been eliminated by decreasing the locking performance of carbon LSDs.)
Equipped with Carbon LSD
3. Acceleration control range more than 10 times that of metal LSDs
It is no exaggeration to say that our company's carbon LSD, which is the fruit of many years of searching for the best combination of transient properties, low initial drag resistance, and durability, is the world's best high performance LSD. Vehicle performance is stable because there is no sudden slippage of the clutch plates, and the car will go into and exit from corners, staying right on track. Compared to metal LSDs that lock the moment you step on the accelerator, with carbon you get a range of accelerator control that is more than 10 times greater, so you can be much more aggressive in your attack by using the accelerator control you need. Vehicle speed will also increase since braking effects do not occur.
[Explanation]
Compared to metal, carbon has more than 3 times the accelerator pedal travel until the LSD responds.
From the point at which locking begins until you get 100% lock, LSD response time is more than twice that of metal.
Also, carbon LSDs allow gradual differential action, so you can make use of a range of accelerator control that is more than 10 times that of metal.
By permitting gradual differential action, running resistance is kept within a minimum range so as not to impact handling. This is an essential performance feature that allows drivers to maintain high cornering speeds. Cars equipped with carbon LSDs typically have extremely high cornering speeds. With metal LSDs, the only way to get this kind of performance is to design them with extremely low initial settings. The flip side of doing this, of course, is that they have reduced service life and cannot avoid the problem of sudden locking. So you can say that carbon LSDs offer performance that is absolutely unattainable with metal LSDs.
It has only been in the last decade that LSDs with their superior locking capability and durability were made available to the public. By utilizing a large diameter friction disc, ATS championed the idea of capitalizing on LSDs 100% locking ability and excellent durability. Nevertheless, our philosophy is that the single characteristic of a strong locking capability alone -- is not enough. Increasing locking capability previously only implied better durability. ATS felt that the ideal LSD would possess only the minimally required differential lock and thus, we began looking for a revolutionary new material and design for the ideal LSD. In 1998 ATS successfully established a close business relationship with ACROSS Corporation, one of the world's leading edge carbon technology companies. After several years of research and a collaborative development effort, we finally brought the carbon LSD to the market.
This innovative product melds the best of both worlds, using unique materials which possess long lasting friction characteristics under low initial torque settings, while still providing the minimal necessary differential lock. This ideal material is flexible enough to allows LSD to absorb a corner radius while still locking the differential effectively when is needed. This smooth transient response is crucial for precise acceleration control. ATS carbon LSD meets all the tough requirements described previously and it is the best LSD in the marketplace today.
A final advantage the carbon LSD has over its metal counterpart is an absence of the "braking phenomena (braking effects)". Carbon LSD achieves this by accepting a small differential variance, thereby preventing the drag on the drive train due to the differential lock - braking phenomena (braking effects). ATS carbon LSD allows you aggressively attack every corner maintaining a high engine RPM
4. More than 30 times the thermal decomposition resistance of metal LSDs
Since thermal decomposition does not occur with carbon LSDs, even with repeated time attacks and under the violent running loads of high-performance cars, you can reach a higher level of skill in setting up and driving your vehicle.
[Explanation]
In metal LSDs, thermal decomposition occurs in 5~6 minutes on the circuit, running full throttle.
In carbon LSDs, there is no thermal decomposition when running circuit grips or drifts.
High performance cars fitted with metal LSDs show thermal decomposition after about 3~4 laps (5~6 minutes or so), when running on circuits in which one lap is 3~4 km in length, and performance begins to deteriorate. In contrast, carbon LSDs exhibit no performance deterioration, even after at least 3 hours or more of continuous time attacks, running the vehicle at its performance limits. In drifting or other practices, where we see changes in performance due to thermal decomposition in metal LSDs after approximately 10 minutes of continuous driving, we see no such changes in carbon LSDs, even when the vehicle is run all day long.
High-powered FF car races, high-powered 4WD vehicle races, or low-medium speed drifting are typical examples of the kind of punishment an LSD can be subjected to in short-term use. In these kinds of continuous driving conditions, carbon LSDs showed no thermal decomposition even when they are in use all day.
Equipped with Carbon LSD
Mr. Takeshi Shirai
5. More than 70 timesthe service life of metal LSDs
Compared to metal LSDs, in which performance begins to deteriorate immediately in high-load driving situations, carbon LSDs have over 70 times more durability. For example, after a 24 hour endurance race, you can take on the next challenge without performing maintenance because there is no change in initial torque. You can go for significantly longer overhaul cycles and enjoy astonishing cost performance.
[Explanation]
We've been selling these LSDs for four years, and have confirmed service life that is 70~100 times longer than metal. We are sure that these LSDs will have a service life more than 300 times greater than those of metal LSDs. Metal LSDs have to undergo initial torque adjustment after a single continuous hour of driving under race conditions.
Carbon LSDs maintain initial [torques] of 40~69 Nm, even after running for 70~100 hours. We have results showing that even in super endurance racing, with just changes of the LSD oil carbon LSDs can go for an entire season without adjustment. Time attack vehicles can compete for more than three years without any deterioration in performance.
Since these products were put on the market 4 years ago, we have hardly shipped a single overhaul set due to performance deterioration. There are already 140,000 km on the 34 GT-R ATS demonstration vehicle, but the LSD is working beautifully with only oil changes. We think it can go for 200,000 to 300,000 km since there is no detectable deterioration in performance.
In endurance racing, metal LSDs begin to show decreased performance after only one hour, and you have to adjust initial torque for each race. In contrast, carbon LSDs maintain initial torques of 40~60 Nm, even when they are used for super endurance racing including practice and qualifiers for 70~100 hours or more.
In time attack cars it can be used for several years, with just oil changes, without seeing any decrease in performance. What this means is that, in terms of service life, the LSD maintains its performance throughout this entire period. Typically, when the initial torque of a metal LSD declines, its service life is over. You can feel the reduced performance of metal LSDs in the loss of drive, delays in lock timing, and a decreased sense of winding. These phenomena become evident when the initial torque of a metal LSD falls past a certain level, and the driver becomes aware of decreased performance.
In a carbon LSD, there is virtually no difference in initial torque, even before and after a 24 hour race, so you can take on the next challenge without performing maintenance. With a carbon LSD, even if there is a dramatic decline in initial torque, there is no change in performance, so the period of use until there is a deterioration of performance is incomparably longer than that of a metal LSD.
In fact, since these LSDs went on sale in 2001, we have hardly received any questions about maintenance or maintenance-related complaints. And we've hardly even shipped any repair parts. With this kind of track record, we believe that carbon LSDs will have a service life more than 70 times longer than that of a metal LSD.
6. Noiseless performance
In conditions exactly the same as race specifications, when the LSD is engaged there is almost no chattering sound that you will be aware of (when using our company's LSD oil).
[Explanation]
Even when other companies promise that their LSDs don't make noise, what they are doing is setting the initial torque so low that it doesn't even function as an LSD, or providing their LSDs with no more than 30~70% of locking capacity, or maybe they have a mechanism to force a delay in locking.
But the difference with all of our stock carbon LSDs - that actually work as LSDs and provide 100% locking performance - is their noiseless performance. Carbon LSDs are somewhat affected by oil. But the change in noise and lock feel is very small, 10~20% of that you feel with a metal LSD.
Equipped with Front & Rear Carbon LSD
7. Compatible with Automatic Transmission Vehicles
(Noiseless High Performance with Automatic Transmission Fluid)
In automatic transmission vehicles abnormal noise is unavoidable with a metal LSD, but Carbon LSDs will adapt without any problems to the fluid used for automatic transmissions. It is for this reason that an LSD for use in automatic transmission vehicles is now planned for our company's product line. This will enable sport driving with automatic transmission cars, and will also be extremely effective in improving the quality of the ride over poor or snowy roads.
[Explanation]
Development of an LSD for use in automatic transmission vehicles has been attempted many times in the past, but the compatibility of LSDs with ATF (automatic transmission fluid) has been poor and operation was abnormally noisy, so development was abandoned. However, the results of compatibility tests of carbon LSDs with ATF have shown that there is absolutely no problem with locking performance and noise, so we have embarked on the development of a carbon LSD for automatic transmission vehicles.
In December, 2005, we will release the first carbon LSD for automatic for Honda Fit 1,300 & 1,500. ATS carbon LSDs will make your automatic vehicles or mini vans really lively and nimble without sacrificing any riding comfort.
Carbon LSD operational notes
1) Metal LSDs are recommended for drag racing which requires a strong instantaneous lock.
2) Not enough conclusive data have been acquired regarding the lapping time improvement of a carbon LSD in gymkhana over a metal one.
3) Though the incidence is extremely rare, there are times when carbon chips peel off or the carbon plate experiences severe friction, due to the type of
LSD oil used. Although the adaptive range of oil performance that is permitted in the case of a carbon LSD is several times broader than that of
a metal LSD, to avoid any problems you should first use the pure ATS LSD oil. When a driver dislikes softer locking performance and installs
an oil that causes stronger locking, the side gears and the pinion gears built into the LSD could fail in a short time. Please be aware that any oil that
leads to abnormal noise right after the oil is added is not suitable and you should remove it immediately.
(Our company has put in place claim authentication criteria for carbon LSDs based on development tests and market results for carbon LSDs over
a period of the past 7 years and more, but abnormal noise from the LSD, peeling of carbon chips, early wear and tear, breakage of gears and
failure of peripheral components are not claimable. We ask that you exercise due caution when it comes to choosing and installing LSD oil.)
4) Deterioration of LSD oil can cause weakening of the performance or increased unwanted noise level. By installing new LSD oil, normal performance
is restored.
The lifespan and the maintenance cycle of and LSD are greatly influenced by several factors, competition category, vehicle preparation, race courses, driving style etc. We prepared this data based on the observation and the judgment of ATS staffs and professional teams / shops which actually use our carbon LSD. It does not by any means cover the 100 % of the available LSDs in the market. However, when the comparison is made for performance / durability between the actual LSDs we have seen so far and our carbon LSD, we believe the assertions presented here are quite accurate."
MY Driving Impressions:
1) The Carbon LSD has a mild transitional characteristic which enable the driver to start acceleration earlier in the corner than the metal LSD.
2) Gentle transition to locking also provides a better acceleration control at the apex point.
3) With ATS LSD oil, the noise is unnoticeable. No unwanted chattering noise associated with a metal LSD.
4) I'm 100% happy with this LSD. Its so good that I strongly believe that all Fits should have this as standard equipment. The LSD is life changing like a GPS system. It's amazing!!! I'm much more happy driving the car now than before!
Contact Information:
Dan's Shop Hondas & Acuras
1623 Sepulveda Blvd # 3
Torrance, CA 90501
(310) 534-8974
ATS USA c/o ACROSS USA
Yasu Fukui (CEO)
970 W 190th Street, Suite 980
Torrance, CA 90505
(310) 323-3366
I choose this LSD for the following reasons (quoted from their web site):
"Carbon offers Superior performance unmatched by the Metal LSD. Since its introduction to the JDM market in 2001, the ATS carbon LSD has amazed drivers with its performance, excellent control, superior locking, and incredible durability. The carbon LSD excels in all performance stages whether it's a road race, oval race, time attack, drifting competition, or rally: it guarantees superior performance. The carbon LSD also enables smooth transitions and greatly reduces the noise level down to the level as quiet as an open differential. Furthermore, the safety factor, particularly on a rainy day, is significantly improved when compared to a metal LSD. TKD Auteck BNR32 Equipped with Front and Rear Carbon LSD
In 2001, ATS&ACROSS carbon LSD made an astonishing debut off its amazing speed at several nationally recognized race tracks with a white Nissan GT-R 32 tuned by Tsukada. The picture of BNR32 left is a successor of the original white GT-R. Popular professional drivers like Mitsuhiro Kinoshita and Eiji Yamada along with the famous tuning shop owner Mr.Tsukada all praised the performance of carbon LSD right after the first ride. For the last five years, the only maintenance required was changing the LSD oil. No adjustment of the initial torque. The original carbon LSD has still been performing flawlessly after five years. Marvelous performance with super durability!!. This is really an incredible story.
[Characteristics of Carbon LSD]
1. More than twicethe differential lock strength of metal LSDs
2. Low initial drag resistance and durability that is more than
5 times greaterthan metal
3. Acceleration control range more than 10 times that of metal LSDs
4. More than 30 times the thermal decomposition resistance of
metal LSDs
5. More than 70 times the service life of metal LSDs
6. Noiselessperformance
7. Compatible with Automatic Transmission Vehicles
1. More than twice the differential lock strength of metal LSDs
Through the use of high- carbon friction material ((mu) expresses the coefficient of friction, and the larger that number, the more slip resistant the material), we are able to achieve dramatically improved differential lock without the sudden slippage characteristic of metal. While accepting a certain amount of differential movement, it continually provides stable, high strength differential locking performance in response to sudden input that is more than twice that obtainable with metal LSDs.
[Explanation]
Coefficient of friction of a metal plate in oil: 0.05~0.15
Coefficient of friction of a carbon plate in oil: 0.25~0.35
...more than twice that offered by metal! Moreover,
the frictional power of carbon gradually increases as the temperature rises due to differential friction.
Compared to metal LSDs, carbon LSDs are soft when they start to work, and you might think that they have weak locking power. In fact, they offer more than twice the differential locking power of metal. LSDs operate in oil (lubricating oil). And the coefficient of friction of a metal plate in oil is 0.05~0.15 (no units). In contrast, carbon plate has a coefficient of friction in oil of 0.25~0.35. This evidence alone explains why carbon, with differential locking performance twice that of metal, locks differential movement strongly.
And the frictional force of carbon plate gradually increases in cornering, where there is only a slight amount of differential movement. Also, you can see how in high-speed cornering, which tends to subject the tires to wear, carbon LSDs offer differential locking performance that is simply unheard of in metal LSDs. In high-speed cornering, the locking performance of metal LSDs typically loses out to tire grip and ends up allowing differential movement. It's been proven in races that because of the high strength differential locking of carbon LSDs that does not allow differential movement, the r.p.m. of the inner wheel, which has decreased traction, and the outer wheel are kept the same, resulting in a tendency for the inside of the inner wheel to be more apt to wear. (This issue has been eliminated by decreasing the locking performance of carbon LSDs.)
2005 Integra one-make championship series
Mr. Kenji Kuroki
He praises very highly of the powerful locking performance, outstanding controllability both for dry and wet surfaces, and amazing speed at a fast corner. Winner of October 9, 2005 Suzuka Formula one Integra race!!Equipped with Carbon LSD
2. Low initial drag resistance and durability that is more than 5 times greater than metal
An initial torque of over 70 Nm is needed to prevent lock release in metal LSDs and to maintain stable differential locking. In contrast, low initial torques of only 10~20 Nm are needed for carbon LSDs to maintain stable locking performance. Moreover, severe consumption of material occurs in metal LSDs with low initial torque, while carbon LSDs are extremely stable even with low initial torques, thereby eliminating premature wear.
[Explanation]
The lower limit value of initial torque of metal LSDs is 70 Nm 7 Kg-m
The lower limit value of initial torque of carbon LSDs is 10 Nm 1 Kg-m
...which is a 5-fold difference!
Nm (Newton Meter) is a torque unit which used to be Kg-m (kilogram meter). 1Kg-m = 9.8 Nm
The word "Initial drag resistance" is used to describe the degree of adaptability in how low the initial torque can decline without negatively affecting the differential locking performance. The primary function of LSDs is to transfer the torque to both wheels. However, if the initial torque is set too low, the lock is released and the torque will not adjust, causing unstable handling and slower cornering speeds.
Based on ATS' long experience in motor sports, we have found that the minimum initial torque of a metal LSD is around 70Nm. After continuous LSD usage, the initial torque may fall below 70Nm, then it is necessary to restore the torque to the initial factory setting of 100 - 150Nm to maintain the maximum effectiveness. When compared with metal LSD, we found that the carbon LSD maintained its stable locking performance even when the initial torque declined to as low as 10Nm. The high friction coefficient of the carbon plate triggers the opening of the internal cam ring utilizing minimal torque and thereby producing an effective differential lock.
[Explanation]
The lower limit value of initial torque of metal LSDs is 70 Nm 7 Kg-m
The lower limit value of initial torque of carbon LSDs is 10 Nm 1 Kg-m
...which is a 5-fold difference!
Nm (Newton Meter) is a torque unit which used to be Kg-m (kilogram meter). 1Kg-m = 9.8 Nm
The word "Initial drag resistance" is used to describe the degree of adaptability in how low the initial torque can decline without negatively affecting the differential locking performance. The primary function of LSDs is to transfer the torque to both wheels. However, if the initial torque is set too low, the lock is released and the torque will not adjust, causing unstable handling and slower cornering speeds.
Based on ATS' long experience in motor sports, we have found that the minimum initial torque of a metal LSD is around 70Nm. After continuous LSD usage, the initial torque may fall below 70Nm, then it is necessary to restore the torque to the initial factory setting of 100 - 150Nm to maintain the maximum effectiveness. When compared with metal LSD, we found that the carbon LSD maintained its stable locking performance even when the initial torque declined to as low as 10Nm. The high friction coefficient of the carbon plate triggers the opening of the internal cam ring utilizing minimal torque and thereby producing an effective differential lock.
Equipped with Carbon LSD
2005 Super Taikyu Race (endurance race)
Mr.Akira Watanabe
Mr.Akira Watanabe
A very smooth turn-in & excellent traction. Mr. Watanabe praises carbon LSD's amazing cornering speed which purpasses that of other race cars in higher classes. Mr. Watanabe frequently laps competitors several times with carbon LSD.
3. Acceleration control range more than 10 times that of metal LSDs
It is no exaggeration to say that our company's carbon LSD, which is the fruit of many years of searching for the best combination of transient properties, low initial drag resistance, and durability, is the world's best high performance LSD. Vehicle performance is stable because there is no sudden slippage of the clutch plates, and the car will go into and exit from corners, staying right on track. Compared to metal LSDs that lock the moment you step on the accelerator, with carbon you get a range of accelerator control that is more than 10 times greater, so you can be much more aggressive in your attack by using the accelerator control you need. Vehicle speed will also increase since braking effects do not occur.
[Explanation]
Compared to metal, carbon has more than 3 times the accelerator pedal travel until the LSD responds.
From the point at which locking begins until you get 100% lock, LSD response time is more than twice that of metal.
Also, carbon LSDs allow gradual differential action, so you can make use of a range of accelerator control that is more than 10 times that of metal.
By permitting gradual differential action, running resistance is kept within a minimum range so as not to impact handling. This is an essential performance feature that allows drivers to maintain high cornering speeds. Cars equipped with carbon LSDs typically have extremely high cornering speeds. With metal LSDs, the only way to get this kind of performance is to design them with extremely low initial settings. The flip side of doing this, of course, is that they have reduced service life and cannot avoid the problem of sudden locking. So you can say that carbon LSDs offer performance that is absolutely unattainable with metal LSDs.
It has only been in the last decade that LSDs with their superior locking capability and durability were made available to the public. By utilizing a large diameter friction disc, ATS championed the idea of capitalizing on LSDs 100% locking ability and excellent durability. Nevertheless, our philosophy is that the single characteristic of a strong locking capability alone -- is not enough. Increasing locking capability previously only implied better durability. ATS felt that the ideal LSD would possess only the minimally required differential lock and thus, we began looking for a revolutionary new material and design for the ideal LSD. In 1998 ATS successfully established a close business relationship with ACROSS Corporation, one of the world's leading edge carbon technology companies. After several years of research and a collaborative development effort, we finally brought the carbon LSD to the market.
This innovative product melds the best of both worlds, using unique materials which possess long lasting friction characteristics under low initial torque settings, while still providing the minimal necessary differential lock. This ideal material is flexible enough to allows LSD to absorb a corner radius while still locking the differential effectively when is needed. This smooth transient response is crucial for precise acceleration control. ATS carbon LSD meets all the tough requirements described previously and it is the best LSD in the marketplace today.
A final advantage the carbon LSD has over its metal counterpart is an absence of the "braking phenomena (braking effects)". Carbon LSD achieves this by accepting a small differential variance, thereby preventing the drag on the drive train due to the differential lock - braking phenomena (braking effects). ATS carbon LSD allows you aggressively attack every corner maintaining a high engine RPM
All Japan dirt trial series
Mr. Osamu Yoshimura
Mr. Osamu Yoshimura
Winner of the first and fifth round of 2005 dirt trial series ! Mr. Yoshimura fascinated the spectators by dynamically driving his Evo with front and rear carbon LSD. He praises excellent controllability and super stable effectiveness.
Equipped with Front & Rear Carbon LSD
4. More than 30 times the thermal decomposition resistance of metal LSDs
Since thermal decomposition does not occur with carbon LSDs, even with repeated time attacks and under the violent running loads of high-performance cars, you can reach a higher level of skill in setting up and driving your vehicle.
[Explanation]
In metal LSDs, thermal decomposition occurs in 5~6 minutes on the circuit, running full throttle.
In carbon LSDs, there is no thermal decomposition when running circuit grips or drifts.
High performance cars fitted with metal LSDs show thermal decomposition after about 3~4 laps (5~6 minutes or so), when running on circuits in which one lap is 3~4 km in length, and performance begins to deteriorate. In contrast, carbon LSDs exhibit no performance deterioration, even after at least 3 hours or more of continuous time attacks, running the vehicle at its performance limits. In drifting or other practices, where we see changes in performance due to thermal decomposition in metal LSDs after approximately 10 minutes of continuous driving, we see no such changes in carbon LSDs, even when the vehicle is run all day long.
High-powered FF car races, high-powered 4WD vehicle races, or low-medium speed drifting are typical examples of the kind of punishment an LSD can be subjected to in short-term use. In these kinds of continuous driving conditions, carbon LSDs showed no thermal decomposition even when they are in use all day.
Equipped with Carbon LSD
2005 Super Taikyu race (endurance race)
Mr. Takeshi Shirai
He wholeheartedly trusts the effectiveness of carbon LSD which can go for the next round of 24 hours race with just changing the oil,
- no adjustment is required!
5. More than 70 timesthe service life of metal LSDs
Compared to metal LSDs, in which performance begins to deteriorate immediately in high-load driving situations, carbon LSDs have over 70 times more durability. For example, after a 24 hour endurance race, you can take on the next challenge without performing maintenance because there is no change in initial torque. You can go for significantly longer overhaul cycles and enjoy astonishing cost performance.
[Explanation]
We've been selling these LSDs for four years, and have confirmed service life that is 70~100 times longer than metal. We are sure that these LSDs will have a service life more than 300 times greater than those of metal LSDs. Metal LSDs have to undergo initial torque adjustment after a single continuous hour of driving under race conditions.
Carbon LSDs maintain initial [torques] of 40~69 Nm, even after running for 70~100 hours. We have results showing that even in super endurance racing, with just changes of the LSD oil carbon LSDs can go for an entire season without adjustment. Time attack vehicles can compete for more than three years without any deterioration in performance.
Since these products were put on the market 4 years ago, we have hardly shipped a single overhaul set due to performance deterioration. There are already 140,000 km on the 34 GT-R ATS demonstration vehicle, but the LSD is working beautifully with only oil changes. We think it can go for 200,000 to 300,000 km since there is no detectable deterioration in performance.
In endurance racing, metal LSDs begin to show decreased performance after only one hour, and you have to adjust initial torque for each race. In contrast, carbon LSDs maintain initial torques of 40~60 Nm, even when they are used for super endurance racing including practice and qualifiers for 70~100 hours or more.
In time attack cars it can be used for several years, with just oil changes, without seeing any decrease in performance. What this means is that, in terms of service life, the LSD maintains its performance throughout this entire period. Typically, when the initial torque of a metal LSD declines, its service life is over. You can feel the reduced performance of metal LSDs in the loss of drive, delays in lock timing, and a decreased sense of winding. These phenomena become evident when the initial torque of a metal LSD falls past a certain level, and the driver becomes aware of decreased performance.
In a carbon LSD, there is virtually no difference in initial torque, even before and after a 24 hour race, so you can take on the next challenge without performing maintenance. With a carbon LSD, even if there is a dramatic decline in initial torque, there is no change in performance, so the period of use until there is a deterioration of performance is incomparably longer than that of a metal LSD.
In fact, since these LSDs went on sale in 2001, we have hardly received any questions about maintenance or maintenance-related complaints. And we've hardly even shipped any repair parts. With this kind of track record, we believe that carbon LSDs will have a service life more than 70 times longer than that of a metal LSD.
Trial Tottori
Lancer EVO 8
Lancer EVO 8
The fastest record holder for Evo at Okayama Kokusai (originally called TI circuit) !! ATS&ACROSS carbon LSD contributed to achieving the record along with the superb skills of tuning a car from Trial Tottori. The rear carbon LSD, even after 3 years, still works flawlessly like a new with maintaining the 40 Nm initial torque. The front LSD is a race-tuned hard core metal LSD with "bakibaki" sound. After a year, the break in is over and finally the driver feels very comfortable with the aggressiveness of the metal LSD.
Equipped with Carbon Rear LSD. [ Front LSD is ATS metal] 6. Noiseless performance
In conditions exactly the same as race specifications, when the LSD is engaged there is almost no chattering sound that you will be aware of (when using our company's LSD oil).
[Explanation]
Even when other companies promise that their LSDs don't make noise, what they are doing is setting the initial torque so low that it doesn't even function as an LSD, or providing their LSDs with no more than 30~70% of locking capacity, or maybe they have a mechanism to force a delay in locking.
But the difference with all of our stock carbon LSDs - that actually work as LSDs and provide 100% locking performance - is their noiseless performance. Carbon LSDs are somewhat affected by oil. But the change in noise and lock feel is very small, 10~20% of that you feel with a metal LSD.
Equipped with Front & Rear Carbon LSD
Winner of the Hyper meeting
street class two consecutive years
street class two consecutive years
(2004 & 2005)
Mr. Masafumi Nonose
Mr. Masafumi Nonose
The condition of the Hyper Meeting was heavy wet in 2004 and dry in 2005. His winning at both meetings proved the Carbon LSD's effectiveness under any road conditions.
7. Compatible with Automatic Transmission Vehicles
(Noiseless High Performance with Automatic Transmission Fluid)
In automatic transmission vehicles abnormal noise is unavoidable with a metal LSD, but Carbon LSDs will adapt without any problems to the fluid used for automatic transmissions. It is for this reason that an LSD for use in automatic transmission vehicles is now planned for our company's product line. This will enable sport driving with automatic transmission cars, and will also be extremely effective in improving the quality of the ride over poor or snowy roads.
[Explanation]
Development of an LSD for use in automatic transmission vehicles has been attempted many times in the past, but the compatibility of LSDs with ATF (automatic transmission fluid) has been poor and operation was abnormally noisy, so development was abandoned. However, the results of compatibility tests of carbon LSDs with ATF have shown that there is absolutely no problem with locking performance and noise, so we have embarked on the development of a carbon LSD for automatic transmission vehicles.
In December, 2005, we will release the first carbon LSD for automatic for Honda Fit 1,300 & 1,500. ATS carbon LSDs will make your automatic vehicles or mini vans really lively and nimble without sacrificing any riding comfort.
Carbon LSD operational notes
1) Metal LSDs are recommended for drag racing which requires a strong instantaneous lock.
2) Not enough conclusive data have been acquired regarding the lapping time improvement of a carbon LSD in gymkhana over a metal one.
3) Though the incidence is extremely rare, there are times when carbon chips peel off or the carbon plate experiences severe friction, due to the type of
LSD oil used. Although the adaptive range of oil performance that is permitted in the case of a carbon LSD is several times broader than that of
a metal LSD, to avoid any problems you should first use the pure ATS LSD oil. When a driver dislikes softer locking performance and installs
an oil that causes stronger locking, the side gears and the pinion gears built into the LSD could fail in a short time. Please be aware that any oil that
leads to abnormal noise right after the oil is added is not suitable and you should remove it immediately.
(Our company has put in place claim authentication criteria for carbon LSDs based on development tests and market results for carbon LSDs over
a period of the past 7 years and more, but abnormal noise from the LSD, peeling of carbon chips, early wear and tear, breakage of gears and
failure of peripheral components are not claimable. We ask that you exercise due caution when it comes to choosing and installing LSD oil.)
4) Deterioration of LSD oil can cause weakening of the performance or increased unwanted noise level. By installing new LSD oil, normal performance
is restored.
The lifespan and the maintenance cycle of and LSD are greatly influenced by several factors, competition category, vehicle preparation, race courses, driving style etc. We prepared this data based on the observation and the judgment of ATS staffs and professional teams / shops which actually use our carbon LSD. It does not by any means cover the 100 % of the available LSDs in the market. However, when the comparison is made for performance / durability between the actual LSDs we have seen so far and our carbon LSD, we believe the assertions presented here are quite accurate."
MY Driving Impressions:
1) The Carbon LSD has a mild transitional characteristic which enable the driver to start acceleration earlier in the corner than the metal LSD.
2) Gentle transition to locking also provides a better acceleration control at the apex point.
3) With ATS LSD oil, the noise is unnoticeable. No unwanted chattering noise associated with a metal LSD.
4) I'm 100% happy with this LSD. Its so good that I strongly believe that all Fits should have this as standard equipment. The LSD is life changing like a GPS system. It's amazing!!! I'm much more happy driving the car now than before!
Contact Information:
Dan's Shop Hondas & Acuras
1623 Sepulveda Blvd # 3
Torrance, CA 90501
(310) 534-8974
ATS USA c/o ACROSS USA
Yasu Fukui (CEO)
970 W 190th Street, Suite 980
Torrance, CA 90505
(310) 323-3366
Last edited by lanakano; 02-01-2007 at 06:22 PM.
#5
02-02-2007, 03:26 AM
iono but this sounds more like a manufacturer advertising their product rather than a customer praising his purchase. but nonetheless, this ish sounds dope!!! price would be a great addition this little article 
#6
02-02-2007, 01:10 PM
Thanks for the comments. I was thinking that this post looked like an advertisement too. In reality it kinda is because I feel so indebted to Yasu and Dan for helping to make this reality. This was the 1st NA Fit to have the JDM LSD installed. Many weren't sure if it would work. Yasu contacted many Honda Specialists and Honda Trans Shops throughout Southern California including the big guys out in Fontana and none of them were willing to put the LSD in at a reasonable price (even though they sold his porducts). At that time the LSD and Carbon Clutch idea for my Fit didn't look like it would happen. So after the holidays I called a friend, RC Engineering, they suggested DAN's SHOP. From there everything fell into place. I found out that Dan and his son Chris campaigned a CRX in the all motor division and did very well.
I took the car in at 8am and drove back home at 4pm with the LSD and carbon clutch in place. Dan's guys are very efficient and do things by the book. Before they started Dan had them read all of the instructions that Yasu sent with the carbon LSD and carbon clutch. Dan also had them read the Honda FIT Service manual for trans removal/install. When they istalled everything they would refer back to the instructions and manual to set torque specs. These guys are top notch mechanics.
I did say that this LSD was life changing. Back in the 1987 I bought a 1st gen Integra and had Russ Collins blue print the engine with Mugen cams/pistons/rods/crank. I had the car dynoed from Redline at 228hp at the wheels. FYI there was another Integra (Red) same year that had a turbo system that Oscar from the Huntington Beach area built. Funny thing is I met that car in Pasadena were we both went to school. (Hey Oscar if your reading this thread I'm the kid that had the BLACK 86/87 normally aspirated Mugen Integra - I know that your interested in an LSD for your FIT too. If possible stay away from all others and get this one. The transfer of power is much better with this carbon LSD than with metal ones). The car was great but it didn't handle like I wanted it to. I was confused and couldn't adjust my driving style to suit FF cars. Rather than learn FF driving techniques I drove my FR 16v (AE86) Corolla and have not bought any FF cars since then.
I now have two babies at home, a 50 mile round trip commute into downtown Los Angeles, and gas prices were over $3 so I needed a commuter car but the commuter car needed to be fun. I bought the FIT. After 20 years of not driving FF cars my dislike for them crept back in me when I drove the FIT. My problem, as you probably figured out already, is that I'm used of oversteer and getting more and more forward grip after the apex of corner when I apply the throttle. With an OEM FIT this isn't going to happen no matter what one does.
With the addition of this LSD I finally can get the wheels to tuck into the corner. In addition, I've had the LSD locked and got pulled around a corner. This pulling around and the ability to adjust your line after the apex of a corner, through throttle modulation and steering, was life changing for me. I've never been able to do this with an FR car. In addition, I've owned 4wd Subies and the above feeling is different. For me and possibly for the majority of others, the lsd builds confidence and a wider margin of error. That's why I said the lsd should be original equipment on all FITs and that it was life changing.
Please note that I have a manual, sport Fit. In the past LSDs have been limited to manual transmissions. However, as mentioned in my initial post above, through the use of carbon v. metal disks you Automatic Trans owners can also enjoy the benefits of an LSD now too.
I wish I can tell you how much I paid for the Carbon LSD, Carbon Clutch and istallation. However, it would be unfair of me to say becuase my car was used as a test platform so I got very close to cost prices. Furthermore, I don't work for Yasu or Dan (never met them untill this project) and I don't sell these parts or any car parts what so ever. After all was said and done - this was not expensive for me. However, the benefits I enjoy from are well worth their weight in gold.
I know of several fitfreak members who are seriously considering LSDs. In your decision pay great attention to how long the lsd is expected to work at its intial torques setting. Once it stops working you'll have to take it out of the trans to reset it. For me another consideration was noise.
The one drawback to the LSD is that your transmission fluid change intervals increase. This really isn't a problem for me becuase I do all of my maintenance. I'll probably change the trans fluid every time I change my oil.
As for those who are wondering what was shaved on the transmission bell housing when Ben (AJR) installed the same carbon fiber clutch that I did - it was the raised dome shaped area by the input shaft. 1-2mm of material need to be shaved from this area so that the clutch cover doesn't hit it.
If you have any other questions please feel free to ask.
PS JamesBizzel and other so cal members, if all goes well I might be in the caravan to Eibach and would love to show you my car.
I took the car in at 8am and drove back home at 4pm with the LSD and carbon clutch in place. Dan's guys are very efficient and do things by the book. Before they started Dan had them read all of the instructions that Yasu sent with the carbon LSD and carbon clutch. Dan also had them read the Honda FIT Service manual for trans removal/install. When they istalled everything they would refer back to the instructions and manual to set torque specs. These guys are top notch mechanics.
I did say that this LSD was life changing. Back in the 1987 I bought a 1st gen Integra and had Russ Collins blue print the engine with Mugen cams/pistons/rods/crank. I had the car dynoed from Redline at 228hp at the wheels. FYI there was another Integra (Red) same year that had a turbo system that Oscar from the Huntington Beach area built. Funny thing is I met that car in Pasadena were we both went to school. (Hey Oscar if your reading this thread I'm the kid that had the BLACK 86/87 normally aspirated Mugen Integra - I know that your interested in an LSD for your FIT too. If possible stay away from all others and get this one. The transfer of power is much better with this carbon LSD than with metal ones). The car was great but it didn't handle like I wanted it to. I was confused and couldn't adjust my driving style to suit FF cars. Rather than learn FF driving techniques I drove my FR 16v (AE86) Corolla and have not bought any FF cars since then.
I now have two babies at home, a 50 mile round trip commute into downtown Los Angeles, and gas prices were over $3 so I needed a commuter car but the commuter car needed to be fun. I bought the FIT. After 20 years of not driving FF cars my dislike for them crept back in me when I drove the FIT. My problem, as you probably figured out already, is that I'm used of oversteer and getting more and more forward grip after the apex of corner when I apply the throttle. With an OEM FIT this isn't going to happen no matter what one does.
With the addition of this LSD I finally can get the wheels to tuck into the corner. In addition, I've had the LSD locked and got pulled around a corner. This pulling around and the ability to adjust your line after the apex of a corner, through throttle modulation and steering, was life changing for me. I've never been able to do this with an FR car. In addition, I've owned 4wd Subies and the above feeling is different. For me and possibly for the majority of others, the lsd builds confidence and a wider margin of error. That's why I said the lsd should be original equipment on all FITs and that it was life changing.
Please note that I have a manual, sport Fit. In the past LSDs have been limited to manual transmissions. However, as mentioned in my initial post above, through the use of carbon v. metal disks you Automatic Trans owners can also enjoy the benefits of an LSD now too.
I wish I can tell you how much I paid for the Carbon LSD, Carbon Clutch and istallation. However, it would be unfair of me to say becuase my car was used as a test platform so I got very close to cost prices. Furthermore, I don't work for Yasu or Dan (never met them untill this project) and I don't sell these parts or any car parts what so ever. After all was said and done - this was not expensive for me. However, the benefits I enjoy from are well worth their weight in gold.
I know of several fitfreak members who are seriously considering LSDs. In your decision pay great attention to how long the lsd is expected to work at its intial torques setting. Once it stops working you'll have to take it out of the trans to reset it. For me another consideration was noise.
The one drawback to the LSD is that your transmission fluid change intervals increase. This really isn't a problem for me becuase I do all of my maintenance. I'll probably change the trans fluid every time I change my oil.
As for those who are wondering what was shaved on the transmission bell housing when Ben (AJR) installed the same carbon fiber clutch that I did - it was the raised dome shaped area by the input shaft. 1-2mm of material need to be shaved from this area so that the clutch cover doesn't hit it.
If you have any other questions please feel free to ask.
PS JamesBizzel and other so cal members, if all goes well I might be in the caravan to Eibach and would love to show you my car.
Last edited by lanakano; 02-02-2007 at 01:41 PM. Reason: spelling corrections
#7
02-02-2007, 03:39 PM
interesting... its cool to hear you've had had an ae86. How does that car compare with the Fit? I'm interested because I have both. My ae86 is mainly stock. The ae86 is for sure more fun to drive... I'd be interested in the LSD for an automatic later down the line.
#8
02-02-2007, 03:48 PM
Stick with the AE86 if you can. I know that this might sound like a quote from one of those Japanese magnas but if you try to learn how to drive it it will teach you how to drive. Then every thing else is pretty easy. Similar to the argument for driving a manual trans before an automatic. Good luck...
#9
02-02-2007, 05:36 PM
Very very nice review on the ATS carbon LSD. Thank u so much.
Pls ask the guys at ATS/Dan if I can use Motul or other brand of LSD oil in the future in case I am going for the ATS carbon LSD.
Thanks!
Pls ask the guys at ATS/Dan if I can use Motul or other brand of LSD oil in the future in case I am going for the ATS carbon LSD.
Thanks!
#13
02-06-2007, 10:45 AM
Spoonek4 sorry for the late response the weight of the lsd oil is 80-90w.
jrovic unfortuneately I can't tell you how much I paid becuase I paid close to cost for both parts (my car was used a a test platform). Please feel free to call Yasu he'll be able to give you very good price.
jrovic unfortuneately I can't tell you how much I paid becuase I paid close to cost for both parts (my car was used a a test platform). Please feel free to call Yasu he'll be able to give you very good price.
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