You are uneducated, and ignorant. Everybody is. No one knows everything about anything. You do not have a background or education in chemistry and physics, and you do not have my experience in thousands of industrial applications.

Because there are SO MANY automotive related scams in every form of media, you looked for a minute or so, did not read all of the information, did not watch all of the information, and jumped to a conclusion. All of the responders to my OP did the same.

Your lack of scientific education and experience is a fact. You can fix it. Your ignorance is a fact. You can fix it. I'm sorry that an opportunity to learn and to think is so painful for so many. Did I say that this is a great product? Did I encourage anyone to spend any money? In case you weren't paying any attention, the answer is NO.

 

So.... I am grasping at straws as this is not my area of expertise. Let me see if I understand this fully

The system operates by taking fuel and other additives (such as water, or basically anything liquid) converting it into plasma by breaking it down with a catylist (a non-degrading rod) which is activated by either heat, magnets, electricity (or a combination of those) and charged particals within the converter (with your background in plasma generators you can probably clear that up a bit for me and others, I didn't fully understand the process in the video). So the plasma (which I understand to be ionized particals from the fuel and broked down molecules like water and other things all floating together in a gas) gets injected into the engine where it is able to combust completly and with more energy from recombining water and other substances.

Ok fair enough, but you really have to forgive my ignorance on the issue. If the Plasma is so hot (you mentioned it generated the heat of the sun) how do you pipe it back into the engine without disroying the feed lines or melting your cylinders?

Also coming back to my original question a few posts back. Where does the energy come from to break down all of these particals? Really the fuel is your source of everything happening, I took the liberty to look up estimated gasoline engine efficency...
Using that as a loose basis, the energy lost mechanically and through friction is unrecoverable unless you change the engine type. Also is there heat generated when burning plasma? That would be an additional loss to consider. I just don't see how you could increase your mileage by 5 times realistically.

In the end the energy required to break down these particals has to come from somewhere or it defies the laws of physics. If you added water to your mix... shouln't you be experiencing a negitive loss in efficency?

I hope you understand I am not saying you support or endorse this product. But you mentioned there is some potential here and I am trying to stay open minded on the subject.

 

It's not necessary to read the whole thing to see it's a scam. One physically impossible claim ("We have seen savings of over 300%") is enough.

 

dude, manxman, you alienate yourself with your arrogance.

as the late great socrates once said-
"i know that i am intelligent because i know i know nothing."

think about that.

 

SP-
You DO need an education in the sciences to easily understand the theory behind this system. I got the same childish reaction to this thread as I did over the CARB exemption status of the H-Fit intake. Total irrationality as expected, and from some of the same people. this is no reflection on you because you freely admit your lack of science knowledge. Lack of knowledge doesn't make you anything but lacking knowledge. There is plenty to be acquired with a little effort.

Even knowledgeable people like "claymore" took a brief look and said "this just can't be true" simply because they want to believe that. I am telling you that it CAN be true- that the science is real- not that the claims ARE true because that would depend upon how well the hardware design makes use of real physics and chemistry.

"claymore" knows this- the electrolytic activity in a conventional lead/acid automotive battery not only generates electricity, it also generates hydrogen gas from the water used to make the electrolytic solution. A single spark is all it takes to make the battery explode. This used to be a common occurrence years ago. It is uncommon today because of better (sealed/no maintenance) battery design. By electrolytically separating water into its component molecular elements, you get two flammable gases- H1 and O2. Add enough flammable gas to the air/fuel mixture, and you get more energy which allows you to reduce the amount of gasoline to maintain the same amount of torque from the engine.

If you don't understand the principles presented in the web site, and only see the claims, of course it looks just like any other scam. If you have any understanding of the principles, and you are patient and interested enough to fully study all of the information presented, you may develop a different opinion.

To say "This CANNOT work!" simply shows your inability to understand the information. It does not make your statement true. All of the little kids with the big talk can scream and yell and wet their pants all they want to. The science is real. The HAFC components will fit under the hood of a Fit. The system is affordable (yes, I received the quote, and downloaded a 24 page installation manual).

No, I'm not going to tell you the cost or any of the install details- you'll have to work for that yourselves.

How many pages of schemes to achieve better fuel economy do we have on the forums? How ridiculous and dangerous are some of those schemes (shut off the ignition and coast in neutral for instance)?

The reason why all of the little kids are yelling so much is that the few Fit owners with a Physics major education get turned off by the ignorance and childishness that is prevalent in forums like these that they can't be bothered to post- too much of a waste of time, and an audience that can't understand the basics of how the world works.

 

well can't say I didn't try to understand

Any chance you could post up the answer to your question regarding the diesel engine, I am curious as to what the answer is.

also...
I have to know... what do you do for a living!!!!

 

I want to see more people use their assumptions to prove my point. My "twin brother" claymore (we specialize in alienating ourselves by counteracting bullshit with facts) can also be wrong. I want to read his answers to the diesel engine question, and the ones that I asked "kps" who also could not/did not answer.

I may PM you an answer some day because you are a "nice Canadian" and I like you. Otherwise, you have to wait for more people to dig a hole with their words and then fall in.

 

Yeah it has sparked my interest, I used to work with diesel engines a lot back when I was younger. lol, never had the opportunity to freeze one up though

 

if you were already expecting every ignorant forum member to conclude this was a scam, why did you post it in the first place?

it seems to me that instead of helping the community with a genuinely good option for fuel efficiency, you were just out to attack anyone that was curious enough to reply.

 

man, your a straight up a-hole. im glad i never went to any of the meets you were at.

 

This may be a genuinely good option. I expected the ignorant folks, but hoped for some open-minded and educated feedback. Maybe that kind of input doesn't exist here.

 

honestly, i have no qualifications to even comment on the technology behind it. science is very much NOT my forte, but i am always open to learning about it.

i also don't think too many people overall have the same background with this as you do, especially not in such a centralized place as an online forum for a specific car.

my point is, you did receive feedback, but because it wasn't exactly what you were looking for, does not mean that everyone on here is ignorant and close-minded.

 

Overcharging electrolyses water; a spark can ignite the hydrogen and oxygen. Nothing to do with the lead, sulfuric acid, OR this scam. You don't get more energy out than you put in.

One of the ways the world works is that scammers troll for suckers. These people are pushing at least five different products, all of which are well-known scams. They're crooks, pure and simple. Stop using this forum to promote fraud. Don't like that? Go ahead: prove it does what it claims ("a minimum of 50% increase in fuel economy") and sue me for libel.

 

You are the second person to admit that science is not his/her background, but your past comments were negative and critical in nature. Except for Sugarphreak, all other replies were condemnations on the information in the linked website. An then there are the extreme cases like little Kelsey who typify the total bs on forums that grows out of ignorance and inexperience.

My OP was intended to give people, with an interest in ecology and finding safe and effective ways to increase fuel economy, an opportunity to look at and learn from some new technology. The fact that I have more knowledge and experience in some things than you do does not make you my inferior, and the reverse is also true.

The fact that you disagree with me on any subject does not make you right and me wrong, or vice versa. Being able to discuss or disagree about any subject without histrionics defines mature and reasonable people. Screaming, yelling, name calling and making demands defines people like little Kelsey. The fact that I will ignore his future tantrums means only that I don't want to waste band width on his drivel.

 

I am not promoting anything at all. I found an interesting website. You don't have to like it or believe it. It isn't my website. I haven't bought anything from it. But it is entertaining to watch overwrought people like you and others get so close to a breakdown. You are still spouting ignorant nonsense. Go back to school.

 

What a distressing contrast there is between the radiant intelligence of a child and the feeble mentality of the average adult. -sigmund freud

 

i did not want to come across sounding negative to the topic of the thread, i was discussing previous comments you had left regarding other
posts.

i'm all for disagreements and debates on these forums, it makes the conversation much more lively, haha. i just know that personally, i am much more inclined to make thoughtful posts when i feel it is an active discussion, not just attacks being thrown every which way. these things can get out of hand extremely fast, and i think sadly this thread ended up being a vehicle for that.

we should all just sit down and have a nice cup of tea

 

Some of your posts make you sound a great deal like a salesman for this scam -- "The science is real. The HAFC components will fit under the hood of a Fit. The system is affordable".

Edit: And my, oh my, your link has an affiliate code. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you blindly copied it from somewhere else.

Discussion is fine. Believing bullshit is fine. Defending bullshit is fine. Promoting a fraud is not.

So far you haven't posted anything concrete in defense of these products. Why not? "The Vaporizer contains 6 powerful magnets to help ionize the fuel and break it down into tiny sized molecules for easier consumption, a cleaner burn, and a more thorough utilization of the fuel." C'mon, tell us how this works. Heck, tell us how this could possibly work. Maybe it works like this one.

"The HAFC Optimizer is an actual computer that ties into the emissions control system on the car and teaches the manufacturer’s computer to operate the HAFC System to keep it from rejecting the savings." Do tell us why this isn't complete bullshit.

"This unit is the patented difference between the HAFC and all other gas saving devices." Maybe you could ask them for the patent number; I can't seem to find it at uspto.gov.

"The Covalizer is a blend of special chemicals added to the fuel that helps “crack” the fuel into smaller molecules and aid vaporization, so your engine burns the fuel more completely, yielding greater fuel economy." Reaction equations will do nicely.

"What if we could turn the gases you are throwing away via your exhaust into added mileage and power for your vehicle? ... Now, the engine used only 2 pounds of fuel instead of 18 — an increase in efficiency of 9x." Interesting, since since the fraction of fuel unburned is 1 or 2% at most. I really wonder how this one works.

If I had something that would "Absolutely Guarantee a Minimum of 50% Increase in Fuel Economy" (With or Without Capitals), I wouldn't make it look exactly like previous scams, and I wouldn't hawk it on some low-rent website using exactly the same techniques as previous scammers. I'd license it to engine manufacturers, and be the world's richest person before the decade is out.

 

This company's "address" is a mailbox in a UPS store. I'm sure there's room in there for their entire engineering staff.

 

This reply to kps is meant in general terms- not an attack on the poster-

At least somebody is actually reading a little of the information.
The science that the system is designed on are facts. You can argue about a fact all you want to, but the facts don't change.

I don't care what you believe. I don't care what you buy. You are welcome to your opinion. Many of the opinions on these forums are based on zero reason, and zero knowledge. The reasonable members use the forums to obtain knowledge, do research, and either change faulty opinions, or have valid ones backed up by the experience of others.

I didn't say "this works- buy it". I merely said that the science is real. No one has answered my questions about the properties of a few gases. No one has answered the question about the diesel engine. That's because when the state of your knowledge is challenged, all you can do is attack because you can't defend the challenge with knowledge or experience of your own.

I have been accused of arrogance. Even the most extreme of my attackers have more experience than I have in some areas. My experience and knowledge does not make me superior to those without them. It just makes me more experienced, with more facts at my disposal, in my own areas of expertise. Note the plural.