In article <YpKdnQxTZIHtl9nfRVn-ig@sedona.net>, "Michael Pardee" <michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote:

>It's the Toyota system as used in the Prius and Ford Escape that can't have
>a manual; in fact, it can't have any transmission at all. It has an
>"electronic cvt" that is really just a pair of motor/generators in a
>differential arrangement with the gas engine... there is no place to put a
>transmission in the power train. If it were called a "virtual cvt" it would
>be less confusing.

Well, I guess it depends on your definition of "transmission", but
I'd definitely say they have one! They have a set of planetary
gears (which automatic transmissions also use). And yes, as you
wrote, motor/generator is used to modify the gear ratio between
the ICE and the driveshaft, as well as supply torque.

 

In rec.autos.makers.honda Kevin McMurtrie <mcmurtri@dslextreme.com> wrote:
> How much does the balancer weigh? The 05 Accord Hybrid engine seems to
> rev up slowly compared to my simple old 97 Civic HX. It's the one thing
> that disappoints me a little - major downshift lag when stepping on the
> gas. It makes me miss a 5 speed manual.

I don't think it would affect the balancer at all. On the other hand,
there wouldn't be a flywheel, since the IMA is effectively the flywheel.
That would help smoothness at idle.

Engine RPM when blipping the throttle could be part "drive by wire".
There's a lot of computerized engine control involved. The Civic still has
a throttle cable. I don't know about the Accord. The Ford Escape does
not. In the Ford, blipping the throttle does absolutley nothing unless you
go beyond about 2/3 throttle, at which point the RPM climbs rather slowly,
maybe 2 seconds to 3000 RPM.

It could also be the heavy flywheel affect of the IMA.

--
---
Clarence A Dold - Hidden Valley (Lake County) CA USA 38.8,-122.5

 

In rec.autos.makers.honda Kevin McMurtrie <mcmurtri@dslextreme.com> wrote:
> But the Accord Hybrid is rather different. As far as I can tell, the
> electric motor is to keep the engine running smoothly when it's
> switching in and out of gas saving modes. The power meter shows little
> activity and the 15 HP electric motor is tiny compared to the 240 HP gas
> motor.

It seems to be exactly the same as the Civic, almost the same as the
original Insight, and completely different from the Prius and Escape.

The point about the motor being tiny is true, though. The benefit from
idle-stop is still there, as is the cleanliness of the engine at initial
takeoff, where the ICE wouldn't normally be very efficient.
The Accord IMA produces 12% more hp than the Civic.


---
Clarence A Dold - Hidden Valley (Lake County) CA USA 38.8,-122.5

 

In article <mcmurtri-8ECFCE.21251027032005@corp-radius.supernews.com>, Kevin McMurtrie <mcmurtri@dslextreme.com> wrote:

>But the Accord Hybrid is rather different. As far as I can tell, the
>electric motor is to keep the engine running smoothly when it's
>switching in and out of gas saving modes. The power meter shows little
>activity and the 15 HP electric motor is tiny compared to the 240 HP gas
>motor.

True, but note that the vast majority of the time (or at least on
the wimpy EPA certification cycles!) very little of that 240 hp is
actually used. To be sure, the Accord is a lot heavier and less
aerodynamic than the Insight. So it would benefit from a bigger
battery. But (as you no doubt know) the proportion of battery to
ICE size doesn't need stay the same as ICE power goes ballistic.

 

In article <1uOdnSJQxtSULNrfRVn-iQ@comcast.com>,
SoCalMike <mikein562athotmail@hotmail.com> wrote:

> Kevin McMurtrie wrote:
> > But the Accord Hybrid is rather different. As far as I can tell, the
> > electric motor is to keep the engine running smoothly when it's
> > switching in and out of gas saving modes. The power meter shows little
> > activity and the 15 HP electric motor is tiny compared to the 240 HP gas
> > motor.
>
> thats kinda cool. i wonder if they can use that in place of balance shafts?

It's probably technically possible but I bet it would eat a lot of power.

How much does the balancer weigh? The 05 Accord Hybrid engine seems to
rev up slowly compared to my simple old 97 Civic HX. It's the one thing
that disappoints me a little - major downshift lag when stepping on the
gas. It makes me miss a 5 speed manual.

 

In article <d21tgu$7et$1@blue.rahul.net>, dold@XReXXItXsX.usenet.us.com wrote:

>Describe that a little more, if you would. I have a Honda Civic Hybrid
>with CVT, and I understand how it works. The IMA is fixed to the
>crankshaft, so they are both turning at the same speed. The CVT is a steel
>belt on movable "pinch" pulleys to provide the variable ratio.
>
>I don't understand the mix of two electric motors and the CVT in the
>Escape. Short of buying the service manual, can you point to a decent
>reference for how it really works? I've seen some misguided crud, but no
>real explanation. I assume that it is the same as the Prius, so reference
>to that would be good, unless I can spot a discrepancy.

Try this treatise:
http://home.earthlink.
net/~graham1/MyToyotaPrius/Understanding/PowerSplitDevice.htm

I can't vouch for it being 100% correct, but it is similar to what
I've read before about the Toyota hybrid drive. Basically, by
varying the motor/generator1 speed, one can control the ICE rpm.

It's pretty neat, but also complex. 2 high-power
motor/generators.

Another reference:
http://www.me.utexas.edu/~tomr/body.htm

 

In article <d21tgu$7et$1@blue.rahul.net>, dold@XReXXItXsX.usenet.us.com
wrote:

> I don't understand the mix of two electric motors and the CVT in the
> Escape.

The Escape uses pretty much the same system as what Toyota uses, which
is way different than the straightforward Honda Integrated Motor Assist.

 

In article <1111786109.613439.121430@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups .com>,
"Bucky" <uw_badgers@email.com> wrote:

> I also was under the impression that hybrids were only AT
> (probably because Prius came out first),

No, the Prius came out after the Insight. Insight: 2000. Prius:
2001. Civic Hybrid: 2003.

The Insight was available with both manual and auto trans, as is the
current Civic Hybrid.

The Toyota is a complex system; the Honda is simple and straightforward.
Integrated Motor Assist is probably more bang for the buck.

 

Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:
> > On the other hand, you can't have hybrid gas/electric with MT.
>
> shhhhhhh......don't tell Honda, who sells them by the boatload with
> manual transmissions.....

sweet! I also was under the impression that hybrids were only AT
(probably because Prius came out first), and I was saddened that I
would have to give up MT if I ever wanted to get a hybrid. But now I
can have the best of both worlds.

 

In rec.autos.makers.honda Dave <dm@nospam.com> wrote:
> Well, I guess it depends on your definition of "transmission", but
> I'd definitely say they have one! They have a set of planetary
> gears (which automatic transmissions also use). And yes, as you
> wrote, motor/generator is used to modify the gear ratio between
> the ICE and the driveshaft, as well as supply torque.

Describe that a little more, if you would. I have a Honda Civic Hybrid
with CVT, and I understand how it works. The IMA is fixed to the
crankshaft, so they are both turning at the same speed. The CVT is a steel
belt on movable "pinch" pulleys to provide the variable ratio.

I don't understand the mix of two electric motors and the CVT in the
Escape. Short of buying the service manual, can you point to a decent
reference for how it really works? I've seen some misguided crud, but no
real explanation. I assume that it is the same as the Prius, so reference
to that would be good, unless I can spot a discrepancy.

--
---
Clarence A Dold - Hidden Valley (Lake County) CA USA 38.8,-122.5

 

There are lots of great statistics at the Government CAFE web site.
Lots of compiled data on cars going back to 1977 (and some even
older.) One interesting trend tracked is the percentage of
automobiles with automatic transmissions.

In 1977, 84.1% of all new cars had AT. Under pressure of demands for
improved fuel economy and increasing consumer preference for import
cars, that number dropped to 75.0% in 1987. Then imports went
upscale, ATs became more sophisticated and fuel got cheap. By 2002,
88.5% of new cars had only two pedals and the imminent demise of the
manual transmission was widely predicted.

Then something funny happened. There were rumors of rebellion in the
ranks and increased reports of drivers demanding control of the gear
ratios. In 2003, the percentage of cars sold with automatics dropped
precipitously to 82.4%. The CAFE site is now reporting a further drop
in 2004 with the lowest percentage of AT's since 1991, 79.6%. That
means that the number of cars sold with manual transmissions increased
77% in only two years and a clutch is now found in one of every five
new cars.

In terms of sales, this trend actually surpasses the much touted
return of rear wheel drive and the movement is broad based. While
keeping in mind that the politics of fuel economy can skew the
definitions pretty badly, the trend is apparent in domestics, Asian
and European imports. All are selling manual transmissions at levels
that haven't been seen in a decade. Almost half of all European cars
are now shifters, the highest rate since 1988.

Will this be a long lasting trend or a brief flash? It is still too
early to tell but it certainly shows that the old MT is going to be
harder to kill than it once appeared. The auto companies have now
learned that there is a solid base of buyers who prefer to shift for
themselves and the increased availability of this option is sure to
follow.


http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/rules/...erCarFleet.htm

 

"Dave" <dm@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:83T0e.110897$H05.86235@twister.nyroc.rr.com.. .
> In article <4243de3a_4@x-privat.org>, "dragon" <dondragon38@hotmail.com>
wrote:
> >> >
> >> Well, now the trend is to have both manual and auto trannies on the
same
> >car
> >> which is called million different names such as autostick, tiptronic,
> >> easytronic, multimod manual, activeselect or whatever...
> >
> >of course, i didn't mean that these cars have 2 transmissions...just one
> >with with the capabilities of both both manual and auto transmission...
>
> Yes, I wonder how they (NHTSA) are defining "manual". Some of the
> ones you listed are typical torque converter ("slushboxes") where
> they just add a manual shifting mode. Others have actual manual
> trannies, just with an electronic clutch, ex: BMW's SMG. I
> believe your "Easytronic" is the latter?
>

I think you are correct.. Opel calls it a clutchless automatic or semi
automatic. When it shifts the gear, it is not as smooth as normal
automatics..You definitely feel it. a slight pause and the shift. if you
take your foot off of the gas pedal slightly, it shifts easier or less
noticeably. It also moves backward when you are on a very slight incline and
your foot is not on the brake just like regular 5 speeds.


> I wonder how many folk who buy the tiptronic type actually
> manually shift. When I've driven those, I get tired of the
> novelty in the first drive and just end out driving them like
> every other automatic.

Well., same here too..first couple of times I stole the car from my wife, I
shifted myself and got tired of it and quit...

ahmet

 

"Gordon McGrew" <gRmEcMgOrVeEw@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:n1n6415e4ld5568b02dss1lue7vccg1us2@4ax.com...
>
>
> There are lots of great statistics at the Government CAFE web site.
> Lots of compiled data on cars going back to 1977 (and some even
> older.) One interesting trend tracked is the percentage of
> automobiles with automatic transmissions.
>
> In 1977, 84.1% of all new cars had AT. Under pressure of demands for
> improved fuel economy and increasing consumer preference for import
> cars, that number dropped to 75.0% in 1987. Then imports went
> upscale, ATs became more sophisticated and fuel got cheap. By 2002,
> 88.5% of new cars had only two pedals and the imminent demise of the
> manual transmission was widely predicted.
>
> Then something funny happened. There were rumors of rebellion in the
> ranks and increased reports of drivers demanding control of the gear
> ratios. In 2003, the percentage of cars sold with automatics dropped
> precipitously to 82.4%. The CAFE site is now reporting a further drop
> in 2004 with the lowest percentage of AT's since 1991, 79.6%. That
> means that the number of cars sold with manual transmissions increased
> 77% in only two years and a clutch is now found in one of every five
> new cars.
>
> In terms of sales, this trend actually surpasses the much touted
> return of rear wheel drive and the movement is broad based. While
> keeping in mind that the politics of fuel economy can skew the
> definitions pretty badly, the trend is apparent in domestics, Asian
> and European imports. All are selling manual transmissions at levels
> that haven't been seen in a decade. Almost half of all European cars
> are now shifters, the highest rate since 1988.
>
> Will this be a long lasting trend or a brief flash? It is still too
> early to tell but it certainly shows that the old MT is going to be
> harder to kill than it once appeared. The auto companies have now
> learned that there is a solid base of buyers who prefer to shift for
> themselves and the increased availability of this option is sure to
> follow.
>
>
> http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/rules/...erCarFleet.htm


I wish they'd put a MT in the 4 door accord V6.

 

"Elmo P. Shagnasty" <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote in message
news:elmop-3FC07B.06460725032005@text.usenetserver.com...
> In article <mcmurtri-3CBC1E.22055124032005@corp-radius.supernews.com>,
> Kevin McMurtrie <mcmurtri@dslextreme.com> wrote:
>
>> On the other hand, you can't have hybrid gas/electric with MT.
>
> shhhhhhh......don't tell Honda, who sells them by the boatload with
> manual transmissions.....
>
It's the Toyota system as used in the Prius and Ford Escape that can't have
a manual; in fact, it can't have any transmission at all. It has an
"electronic cvt" that is really just a pair of motor/generators in a
differential arrangement with the gas engine... there is no place to put a
transmission in the power train. If it were called a "virtual cvt" it would
be less confusing.

Honda's IMA (integrated motor assist) works fine with a manual; Toyotas SHS
(synergy hybrid system) could never have one, if only because the driver has
no control over whether the engine is even running.

Mike

 

In article <4243de3a_4@x-privat.org>, "dragon" <dondragon38@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> Well, now the trend is to have both manual and auto trannies on the same
>car
>> which is called million different names such as autostick, tiptronic,
>> easytronic, multimod manual, activeselect or whatever...
>
>of course, i didn't mean that these cars have 2 transmissions...just one
>with with the capabilities of both both manual and auto transmission...

Yes, I wonder how they (NHTSA) are defining "manual". Some of the
ones you listed are typical torque converter ("slushboxes") where
they just add a manual shifting mode. Others have actual manual
trannies, just with an electronic clutch, ex: BMW's SMG. I
believe your "Easytronic" is the latter?

I wonder how many folk who buy the tiptronic type actually
manually shift. When I've driven those, I get tired of the
novelty in the first drive and just end out driving them like
every other automatic.

 

In article <mcmurtri-3CBC1E.22055124032005@corp-radius.supernews.com>,
Kevin McMurtrie <mcmurtri@dslextreme.com> wrote:

> On the other hand, you can't have hybrid gas/electric with MT.

shhhhhhh......don't tell Honda, who sells them by the boatload with
manual transmissions.....

 

> >
> Well, now the trend is to have both manual and auto trannies on the same
car
> which is called million different names such as autostick, tiptronic,
> easytronic, multimod manual, activeselect or whatever...

of course, i didn't mean that these cars have 2 transmissions...just one
with with the capabilities of both both manual and auto transmission...

ahmet

 

"Gordon McGrew" <gRmEcMgOrVeEw@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:n1n6415e4ld5568b02dss1lue7vccg1us2@4ax.com...
>
>
> There are lots of great statistics at the Government CAFE web site.
> Lots of compiled data on cars going back to 1977 (and some even
> older.) One interesting trend tracked is the percentage of
> automobiles with automatic transmissions.
>
> In 1977, 84.1% of all new cars had AT. Under pressure of demands for
> improved fuel economy and increasing consumer preference for import
> cars, that number dropped to 75.0% in 1987. Then imports went
> upscale, ATs became more sophisticated and fuel got cheap. By 2002,
> 88.5% of new cars had only two pedals and the imminent demise of the
> manual transmission was widely predicted.
>
> Then something funny happened. There were rumors of rebellion in the
> ranks and increased reports of drivers demanding control of the gear
> ratios. In 2003, the percentage of cars sold with automatics dropped
> precipitously to 82.4%. The CAFE site is now reporting a further drop
> in 2004 with the lowest percentage of AT's since 1991, 79.6%. That
> means that the number of cars sold with manual transmissions increased
> 77% in only two years and a clutch is now found in one of every five
> new cars.
>
> In terms of sales, this trend actually surpasses the much touted
> return of rear wheel drive and the movement is broad based. While
> keeping in mind that the politics of fuel economy can skew the
> definitions pretty badly, the trend is apparent in domestics, Asian
> and European imports. All are selling manual transmissions at levels
> that haven't been seen in a decade. Almost half of all European cars
> are now shifters, the highest rate since 1988.
>
> Will this be a long lasting trend or a brief flash? It is still too
> early to tell but it certainly shows that the old MT is going to be
> harder to kill than it once appeared. The auto companies have now
> learned that there is a solid base of buyers who prefer to shift for
> themselves and the increased availability of this option is sure to
> follow.
>
>
> http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/rules/...erCarFleet.htm
>
>
Well, now the trend is to have both manual and auto trannies on the same car
which is called million different names such as autostick, tiptronic,
easytronic, multimod manual, activeselect or whatever... and all range of
cars started to have this kind of transmission.. from cheap econobox such as
Toyota Yaris 1.0 liter to expensive cars like MB and BMW. I just bought a
1.2 liter Opel Corsa with Easytronic transmission. It has 5 forward gears
and you can shift the gears manualy if you want and it gets considerably
better gas mielage compared to the same car with stick shift (6.8 liters /
100 kms in city versus 7.8 liters / 100 kms in city driving).

Ahmet

Turkey

 

On Thu, 24 Mar 2005 22:05:51 -0800, Kevin McMurtrie
<mcmurtri@dslextreme.com> wrote:

>In article <n1n6415e4ld5568b02dss1lue7vccg1us2@4ax.com>,
> gRmEcMgOrVeEw@mindspring.com (Gordon McGrew) wrote:
>
>> There are lots of great statistics at the Government CAFE web site.
>> Lots of compiled data on cars going back to 1977 (and some even
>> older.) One interesting trend tracked is the percentage of
>> automobiles with automatic transmissions.
>>
>> In 1977, 84.1% of all new cars had AT. Under pressure of demands for
>> improved fuel economy and increasing consumer preference for import
>> cars, that number dropped to 75.0% in 1987. Then imports went
>> upscale, ATs became more sophisticated and fuel got cheap. By 2002,
>> 88.5% of new cars had only two pedals and the imminent demise of the
>> manual transmission was widely predicted.
>>
>> Then something funny happened. There were rumors of rebellion in the
>> ranks and increased reports of drivers demanding control of the gear
>> ratios. In 2003, the percentage of cars sold with automatics dropped
>> precipitously to 82.4%. The CAFE site is now reporting a further drop
>> in 2004 with the lowest percentage of AT's since 1991, 79.6%. That
>> means that the number of cars sold with manual transmissions increased
>> 77% in only two years and a clutch is now found in one of every five
>> new cars.
>>
>> In terms of sales, this trend actually surpasses the much touted
>> return of rear wheel drive and the movement is broad based. While
>> keeping in mind that the politics of fuel economy can skew the
>> definitions pretty badly, the trend is apparent in domestics, Asian
>> and European imports. All are selling manual transmissions at levels
>> that haven't been seen in a decade. Almost half of all European cars
>> are now shifters, the highest rate since 1988.
>>
>> Will this be a long lasting trend or a brief flash? It is still too
>> early to tell but it certainly shows that the old MT is going to be
>> harder to kill than it once appeared. The auto companies have now
>> learned that there is a solid base of buyers who prefer to shift for
>> themselves and the increased availability of this option is sure to
>> follow.
>>
>>
>> http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/rules/...erCarFleet.htm
>
>On the other hand, you can't have hybrid gas/electric with MT.

Sure you can. Both the Civic and Insight hybrid models are available
with MT. Accord hybrid comes only with AT for now, but you can get an
MT on your V6 Accord now so it isn't implausible that the hybrid may
get it eventually.


> It's
>kind of a bummer because I like responsiveness of manuals but the
>milage*power level is falling behind some automatics. Regenerative
>braking, continuous gear ratios, ultra-lean burn, and cylinder bypassing
>need to be coordinated with an AT. The decision was much more clear-cut
>a few years ago when you chose between a peppy 5-speed manual or a
>sluggish 3-speed automatic. Now cars like the Accord Hybrid make the
>decision tough.
>
>If we get fuel cells in marketable condition there may not be multiple
>gears anymore. You'll just have a knob to select how much regenerative
>braking you want when you take your foot off the throttle. Crank up
>regenerative braking and you'd have lightning fast response to throttle
>changes.

I think that it will be a long time before fuel cell cars are any more
than a curiosity.

 

In article <n1n6415e4ld5568b02dss1lue7vccg1us2@4ax.com>,
gRmEcMgOrVeEw@mindspring.com (Gordon McGrew) wrote:

> There are lots of great statistics at the Government CAFE web site.
> Lots of compiled data on cars going back to 1977 (and some even
> older.) One interesting trend tracked is the percentage of
> automobiles with automatic transmissions.
>
> In 1977, 84.1% of all new cars had AT. Under pressure of demands for
> improved fuel economy and increasing consumer preference for import
> cars, that number dropped to 75.0% in 1987. Then imports went
> upscale, ATs became more sophisticated and fuel got cheap. By 2002,
> 88.5% of new cars had only two pedals and the imminent demise of the
> manual transmission was widely predicted.
>
> Then something funny happened. There were rumors of rebellion in the
> ranks and increased reports of drivers demanding control of the gear
> ratios. In 2003, the percentage of cars sold with automatics dropped
> precipitously to 82.4%. The CAFE site is now reporting a further drop
> in 2004 with the lowest percentage of AT's since 1991, 79.6%. That
> means that the number of cars sold with manual transmissions increased
> 77% in only two years and a clutch is now found in one of every five
> new cars.
>
> In terms of sales, this trend actually surpasses the much touted
> return of rear wheel drive and the movement is broad based. While
> keeping in mind that the politics of fuel economy can skew the
> definitions pretty badly, the trend is apparent in domestics, Asian
> and European imports. All are selling manual transmissions at levels
> that haven't been seen in a decade. Almost half of all European cars
> are now shifters, the highest rate since 1988.
>
> Will this be a long lasting trend or a brief flash? It is still too
> early to tell but it certainly shows that the old MT is going to be
> harder to kill than it once appeared. The auto companies have now
> learned that there is a solid base of buyers who prefer to shift for
> themselves and the increased availability of this option is sure to
> follow.
>
>
> http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/rules/...erCarFleet.htm

On the other hand, you can't have hybrid gas/electric with MT. It's
kind of a bummer because I like responsiveness of manuals but the
milage*power level is falling behind some automatics. Regenerative
braking, continuous gear ratios, ultra-lean burn, and cylinder bypassing
need to be coordinated with an AT. The decision was much more clear-cut
a few years ago when you chose between a peppy 5-speed manual or a
sluggish 3-speed automatic. Now cars like the Accord Hybrid make the
decision tough.

If we get fuel cells in marketable condition there may not be multiple
gears anymore. You'll just have a knob to select how much regenerative
braking you want when you take your foot off the throttle. Crank up
regenerative braking and you'd have lightning fast response to throttle
changes.