E30 M3 or AP1 S2000?
#41
10-15-2008, 11:16 PM
You do know the S2000 was designed to be a track car right? The amazing F22C motor, the front and rear double wishbone suspension, and the amazingly solid chassis. I know so many people who road race their S2000s and my goodness, they are fast. I track my DB8 and there is no way I can keep up with an S2000 in the corners. How you say that the S2000 has no potential for serious racing is total blasphemy. As a road racer and a Honda enthusiast, I can't agree with you. Yes, there are better platforms that the S2000, but I can't deny that that the S2000 is a great car.
the s2k is a great car, but you sound like a honda brochure.
kennef, the e30 is CLASSIC.
i'm a honda guy, and while i have a strong taste for what europe has to offer, there is simply no denying that the e30 is just, phenomenal and classic to no end...
yes even more so than the s2k.
i mean, look at the responses here! a lip kit? just turbo it? RELIABILITY?
are any of these things (well with the exception of the turbo) true callings to the enthusiast? no.
i mean, as someone who likes a low mainteance car, i can attest to hondas bulletproof reliability.
but its also a selling point for my mother in law to get a civic, not to convince her that the inner enthusiast is calling.
e30 ftmfw man. you know you want to. you already have the fit as a daily, your dose of reliability has been served.
(and the fact that there are a million s2ks only makes matters only worse for the s2k)
#42
10-16-2008, 11:21 AM
here are the details on the cars in question:
S2000 - $13.8k, 2003, 78k miles. new convertible top replaced.
E30 M3 - $11.5k, 1988, 152k miles. newly rebuilt motor properly broken in on a dynodynamics dyno, producing 159.x whp. set of street all seasons, snow, hoosier A6, and V710s. track and street pads for the front brakes. adjustable front and rear sway bars, bilsteins have less than 15k miles on them.
S2000 - $13.8k, 2003, 78k miles. new convertible top replaced.
E30 M3 - $11.5k, 1988, 152k miles. newly rebuilt motor properly broken in on a dynodynamics dyno, producing 159.x whp. set of street all seasons, snow, hoosier A6, and V710s. track and street pads for the front brakes. adjustable front and rear sway bars, bilsteins have less than 15k miles on them.
#43
10-16-2008, 07:31 PM
here are the details on the cars in question:
S2000 - $13.8k, 2003, 78k miles. new convertible top replaced.
E30 M3 - $11.5k, 1988, 152k miles. newly rebuilt motor properly broken in on a dynodynamics dyno, producing 159.x whp. set of street all seasons, snow, hoosier A6, and V710s. track and street pads for the front brakes. adjustable front and rear sway bars, bilsteins have less than 15k miles on them.
S2000 - $13.8k, 2003, 78k miles. new convertible top replaced.
E30 M3 - $11.5k, 1988, 152k miles. newly rebuilt motor properly broken in on a dynodynamics dyno, producing 159.x whp. set of street all seasons, snow, hoosier A6, and V710s. track and street pads for the front brakes. adjustable front and rear sway bars, bilsteins have less than 15k miles on them.
And to Eldaino, i am an enthusiast and i loved my porsche... but it sucked when i couldn't satisfy my "enthusiast" urges because it was in the shop.
A reliable fast car is a great enthusiast car, unless your the enthusiast that's breaking out the toolbox after a couple laps of SCCA.
#44
10-16-2008, 07:38 PM
the s2k is a great car, but you sound like a honda brochure.
kennef, the e30 is CLASSIC.
i'm a honda guy, and while i have a strong taste for what europe has to offer, there is simply no denying that the e30 is just, phenomenal and classic to no end...
yes even more so than the s2k.
i mean, look at the responses here! a lip kit? just turbo it? RELIABILITY?
are any of these things (well with the exception of the turbo) true callings to the enthusiast? no.
i mean, as someone who likes a low mainteance car, i can attest to hondas bulletproof reliability.
but its also a selling point for my mother in law to get a civic, not to convince her that the inner enthusiast is calling.
e30 ftmfw man. you know you want to. you already have the fit as a daily, your dose of reliability has been served.
(and the fact that there are a million s2ks only makes matters only worse for the s2k)
kennef, the e30 is CLASSIC.
i'm a honda guy, and while i have a strong taste for what europe has to offer, there is simply no denying that the e30 is just, phenomenal and classic to no end...
yes even more so than the s2k.
i mean, look at the responses here! a lip kit? just turbo it? RELIABILITY?
are any of these things (well with the exception of the turbo) true callings to the enthusiast? no.
i mean, as someone who likes a low mainteance car, i can attest to hondas bulletproof reliability.
but its also a selling point for my mother in law to get a civic, not to convince her that the inner enthusiast is calling.
e30 ftmfw man. you know you want to. you already have the fit as a daily, your dose of reliability has been served.
(and the fact that there are a million s2ks only makes matters only worse for the s2k)
#45
10-16-2008, 09:11 PM
That E30 sounds like a dog. I'd back away from it.
And to Eldaino, i am an enthusiast and i loved my porsche... but it sucked when i couldn't satisfy my "enthusiast" urges because it was in the shop.
A reliable fast car is a great enthusiast car, unless your the enthusiast that's breaking out the toolbox after a couple laps of SCCA.
And to Eldaino, i am an enthusiast and i loved my porsche... but it sucked when i couldn't satisfy my "enthusiast" urges because it was in the shop.
A reliable fast car is a great enthusiast car, unless your the enthusiast that's breaking out the toolbox after a couple laps of SCCA.
He's got a point. E-30s just Become More Work
#47
10-16-2008, 10:10 PM
could you expand on that? i'm genuinely interested, actually sounds like a reasonable deal to me.
#48
10-17-2008, 07:29 PM
its an evil cylce kennef.
honda guys have a certain disdain for german cars, unless they fall head over heels and never loose respect for them.
no one is arguing that you are more likely to have to repair the bmw more.
but for the countless of bmw (and other german makes) fans out there, if all that shop time still results in a love and passion for the car it must mean one thing...
the car is BAD ASS.
(scary thought, how passionate would folks be about hondas if they were always in the shop?)
honda guys have a certain disdain for german cars, unless they fall head over heels and never loose respect for them.
no one is arguing that you are more likely to have to repair the bmw more.
but for the countless of bmw (and other german makes) fans out there, if all that shop time still results in a love and passion for the car it must mean one thing...
the car is BAD ASS.
(scary thought, how passionate would folks be about hondas if they were always in the shop?)
#50
10-18-2008, 11:54 PM
and that the car is absolutely fantastic. i expected that it would be a serious step down from the former car; in many ways, it absolutely is. but this new rwd is doing something i havent done in a while - sliding around!
it is absurd.
it is absurd.
#51
10-19-2008, 12:28 AM
definately my choice i just got rid of my e30 couple months ago.. thing handled like a dream on stock suspension and sounded great with exhaust... i hope u went with the m3!!!
#52
10-19-2008, 07:01 PM
m3 it is. it has a fantastic motor in there, sounds very exotic. i suppose that if you put that motor in a beat up looking car, it would sound like a junker. good strong powerband from 4 - 7.2k then you are reminded that the cams are stock as you continue to 8.2k. nicely predictable - you need to coax it into oversteer, mild understeer at the limit that allows you to just keep the throttle burried as you unwind the wheel.
individual throttle bodies - they are for the win!
individual throttle bodies - they are for the win!
#54
10-20-2008, 03:07 PM
#55
10-21-2008, 05:40 PM
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: SoCal rockin' it. 909/323/818/714/626
Posts: 689
You're gonna get pretty biased responses on a semi-honda forum! Here's my .02:
E30 M3 is quite the trackmonster if you do it correctly, and on top of that, BMW produced that car MAINLY for that reason, to track. It's seriously fun to drive and its raw feeling of power and control is unmatchable without modifying the AP1. Don't get me wrong, the AP1 will run circles around the E30 stock for stock, but believe me when I say the E30 feels more responsive and grounded compared to the AP1. I've driven both. Much of that can be attributed to the sheer number of years that passed between the production of the E30 and AP1, as well as their intended target audience. 1986 E30 M3 = less electronics, primitive suspension comfort ideals targeted for performance at the track with some daily drivability. 2003 AP1 S2K = mostly computer managed, with great stock suspension and nice power at insane revvs aimed at the weekend canyon carver, daily drivable. We all know how cable-driven gas pedals feel compared to drive-by-wire. I'd take cable-driven over drive-by-wire any day. That's just the gist of it.
While I wouldn't drive the E30 on a daily basis, I'd surely take it over the AP1 if you're gonna go track-hard with low-end power to boot and a time-proven suspension geometry with aftermarket parts available out the a$$. There must be a reason why this car is still around even 20+ years after its birth. If your intent is to autocross every weekend while still have a sick car to drive everyday comfortably, I'd get the AP1. Maybe that's just me being biased... :D
No matter what you choose, you'll look sick in it, lol. Both of these cars modified make jaws drop to say the least. But you don't see a fixed up E30 M3 everyday, at least not as much as you do a modded S2K.
Not to mention, but there must be a reason why E30 M3 prices are shooting up... near classic status much? I'm guessing soon :)
E30 M3 is quite the trackmonster if you do it correctly, and on top of that, BMW produced that car MAINLY for that reason, to track. It's seriously fun to drive and its raw feeling of power and control is unmatchable without modifying the AP1. Don't get me wrong, the AP1 will run circles around the E30 stock for stock, but believe me when I say the E30 feels more responsive and grounded compared to the AP1. I've driven both. Much of that can be attributed to the sheer number of years that passed between the production of the E30 and AP1, as well as their intended target audience. 1986 E30 M3 = less electronics, primitive suspension comfort ideals targeted for performance at the track with some daily drivability. 2003 AP1 S2K = mostly computer managed, with great stock suspension and nice power at insane revvs aimed at the weekend canyon carver, daily drivable. We all know how cable-driven gas pedals feel compared to drive-by-wire. I'd take cable-driven over drive-by-wire any day. That's just the gist of it.
While I wouldn't drive the E30 on a daily basis, I'd surely take it over the AP1 if you're gonna go track-hard with low-end power to boot and a time-proven suspension geometry with aftermarket parts available out the a$$. There must be a reason why this car is still around even 20+ years after its birth. If your intent is to autocross every weekend while still have a sick car to drive everyday comfortably, I'd get the AP1. Maybe that's just me being biased... :D
No matter what you choose, you'll look sick in it, lol. Both of these cars modified make jaws drop to say the least. But you don't see a fixed up E30 M3 everyday, at least not as much as you do a modded S2K.
Not to mention, but there must be a reason why E30 M3 prices are shooting up... near classic status much? I'm guessing soon :)
Last edited by meestersteph; 10-21-2008 at 05:45 PM.
#56
10-21-2008, 05:48 PM
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: SoCal rockin' it. 909/323/818/714/626
Posts: 689
m3 it is. it has a fantastic motor in there, sounds very exotic. i suppose that if you put that motor in a beat up looking car, it would sound like a junker. good strong powerband from 4 - 7.2k then you are reminded that the cams are stock as you continue to 8.2k. nicely predictable - you need to coax it into oversteer, mild understeer at the limit that allows you to just keep the throttle burried as you unwind the wheel.
individual throttle bodies - they are for the win!
individual throttle bodies - they are for the win!
nuff said :D Now sell it to me and we're good :D :D :D
#57
10-21-2008, 06:40 PM
No matter what you choose, you'll look sick in it, lol. Both of these cars modified make jaws drop to say the least. But you don't see a fixed up E30 M3 everyday, at least not as much as you do a modded S2K.
Not to mention, but there must be a reason why E30 M3 prices are shooting up... near classic status much? I'm guessing soon :)
and so far, in just the few days i have owned it, parking the E30 somewhere has started so many random conversations. it's actually kinda fun.
#58
10-21-2008, 06:52 PM
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: SoCal rockin' it. 909/323/818/714/626
Posts: 689
spoke to a few different guys when i was shopping for the M3, and more than one of them claimed the E30 M3 has a collector's rating of B- or C, significance being the car no longer depreciates in value. i guess time will tell if that's true or not.
and so far, in just the few days i have owned it, parking the E30 somewhere has started so many random conversations. it's actually kinda fun.
and so far, in just the few days i have owned it, parking the E30 somewhere has started so many random conversations. it's actually kinda fun.
#59
10-21-2008, 07:51 PM
I love my Ap1.
Keep in mind, the S2000 was never meant to be a long production vehicle. Limited numbers, manual gearbox only, no luxury features. It is an essential sports car. Nothing quite sings the same as an s2000 once in vtec. Especially with an intake and exhaust.
aside from the fact that stock handling is incredibly good, and simple things like good tires can win autocross events (of course with a good driver)...............
and if you've paid attention, the unlimited and limited RWD winners in most Time Attack events are S2000s, and are usually setting better times than the unlimited AWD evos and STI's.
potential..........
Keep in mind, the S2000 was never meant to be a long production vehicle. Limited numbers, manual gearbox only, no luxury features. It is an essential sports car. Nothing quite sings the same as an s2000 once in vtec. Especially with an intake and exhaust.
aside from the fact that stock handling is incredibly good, and simple things like good tires can win autocross events (of course with a good driver)...............
and if you've paid attention, the unlimited and limited RWD winners in most Time Attack events are S2000s, and are usually setting better times than the unlimited AWD evos and STI's.
potential..........
#60
10-21-2008, 08:36 PM
I'll comment having owned both cars, and still have an AP2 in the garage.
First, to the guy who said it wasn't a "genuine race car", I'll point out that in recent videos of the japanese driving like idiots on public roadways, a coilover, bolt-on S2000 was keeping up on a canyon run with a R35 GTR. The S2000 is a FANTASTIC platform for a track car, but gets a little on the expensive side.
What most people need to see here is that you are comparing cars 10 years apart, and 10 years in technology. The S2000 is going to start everytime, you aren't going to have major issues, and getting a lot of performance per $ isn't bad at all, as long as you have a little $. The E30 is also a fantastic platform, lightweight, 50/50, and a very good suspension tune. I think you really need to drive both cars. Even after owning faster cars (yes I have had my share of AWD turbo boxes), there is no car than can compare to the cockpit/shifter/aggressiveness of the S2000. It will stay in my garage till something better comes, and I think I'll still be waiting. I had high hopes for the 135i, and almost had a deposit on one, but once I saw the curb weight it was out of the question.
So really the question needs to be asked, are you looking for a fun, lightweight RWD car that is going to get attention from car enthusiasts? If so, E30. Or are you looking for a car that is going to be ready on every track day, has a mission to kill you, and is an all out street race car? If so, S2000.
And one more comment, anyone who begs to differ on the S2000 being a street race car, drive one on a closed circuit, you'll change your mind.
First, to the guy who said it wasn't a "genuine race car", I'll point out that in recent videos of the japanese driving like idiots on public roadways, a coilover, bolt-on S2000 was keeping up on a canyon run with a R35 GTR. The S2000 is a FANTASTIC platform for a track car, but gets a little on the expensive side.
What most people need to see here is that you are comparing cars 10 years apart, and 10 years in technology. The S2000 is going to start everytime, you aren't going to have major issues, and getting a lot of performance per $ isn't bad at all, as long as you have a little $. The E30 is also a fantastic platform, lightweight, 50/50, and a very good suspension tune. I think you really need to drive both cars. Even after owning faster cars (yes I have had my share of AWD turbo boxes), there is no car than can compare to the cockpit/shifter/aggressiveness of the S2000. It will stay in my garage till something better comes, and I think I'll still be waiting. I had high hopes for the 135i, and almost had a deposit on one, but once I saw the curb weight it was out of the question.
So really the question needs to be asked, are you looking for a fun, lightweight RWD car that is going to get attention from car enthusiasts? If so, E30. Or are you looking for a car that is going to be ready on every track day, has a mission to kill you, and is an all out street race car? If so, S2000.
And one more comment, anyone who begs to differ on the S2000 being a street race car, drive one on a closed circuit, you'll change your mind.