Discuss all Forced induction modifications for the Fit
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The first instance was for the ETD in AJ's thread. I moved them but forgot to post in the original thread that I moved it but made a note in the new one, d'oh! However, I'll get to the bottom of this for your Claymore. My apologies again for misplacing your post.
I can't say for sure if there is or isn't, but I know for a fact that Ben and AJ Racing while designing the T1R pulley went back to the drawing board after they made a solid pulley. It was reducing power instead of making gains. The new ones they've designed and tested I know have harmonic balancers. It is one of the reasons why it is taking them so long to release it!
I can't say for sure if there is or isn't, but I know for a fact that Ben and AJ Racing while designing the T1R pulley went back to the drawing board after they made a solid pulley. It was reducing power instead of making gains. The new ones they've designed and tested I know have harmonic balancers. It is one of the reasons why it is taking them so long to release it!
Thats fine and dandy, but at the moment would have a hard time believing anything Ben at AJ-Racing would tell anyone after the stories I've heard.
But why would you need a harmonic dampener when the pulley is a separate piece from the pulley that drives the timing chain?
Well? Dish the dirt. Cause we all know second hand stories are always true!
Would you like to see the email chain? I've been told a different story every week as to why my console hasn't shipped...no 2 stories happen to be the same, so take it as you will, but I'd rather not post the emails up here and take this thread anymore OT than it already is.
I don't believe the personal attacks were required, but do as you wish. I want the Fit community to understand the dangers.
Let me clarify, I am not trying going to argue this with you. Top engine builders in the world would agree and say do not run a solid crank pulleys. I urge you to read that small link. There is a lot of great information available, and it's all for free.
As stated previously:
We're not here to put down other products, but we have worked with street and race engines for a long time now. Oscar Sr. easily has 30+ years of experience building Honda race engines.
All Jackson Racing championship-winning race cars have used a harmonic dampened crank pulley. The Skunk2 9-sec NA drag engines use harmonic dampened crank pulleys. NASCAR, IMSA, F1... Every great engine builder that we have met uses harmonic dampened crank pulleys.
So believe what you want, but you must understand why they engineer something that way.
-OJR
__________________ Oscar Jackson Jr. KraftWerks Supercharger Systems Forced Induction Forum Sponsor
not all boost is created equal.
Actually that rubber is for reducing NOISE AND harshness not harmonic damping. Read the manual even "gods of performance" are incorrect sometimes. You could run the Jazz/Fit engine WITHOUT a pulley with no ill effects it's JUST a pulley to drive the belt.
YOU CANNOT run the Engine without the pulley WITHOUT ill effects. Please do not post ridiculously false information. Someone here might try it and actually mess up their engine.
So the stock pulley is dampened after all, thanks for posting up the pic.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Illusive
I can't say for sure if there is or isn't, but I know for a fact that Ben and AJ Racing while designing the T1R pulley went back to the drawing board after they made a solid pulley. It was reducing power instead of making gains. The new ones they've designed and tested I know have harmonic balancers. It is one of the reasons why it is taking them so long to release it!
I understood that the originaly prototype T1R pulley only lost power with the AT and actually made a nice gain with the MT
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Last edited by Sugarphreak; 05-30-2008 at 02:04 PM.
Don't make any more of an A** of yourself by ASSUMING something that you have no clue about.
i'm glad you thought it was so funny clay, simple minds, simple pleasures i guess.
i didn't assume anything actually, i just think its hilarous how you think you know, well, pretty much everything. you don't. and that makes a bigger ass out of you than anyone else on this site.
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if i could travel through time sometime....
pep pep?
Originally Posted by Btrthnezr3 Say Wha??? You mean, there's another reason to have a suspension?
I don't believe the personal attacks were required, but do as you wish. I want the Fit community to understand the dangers.
Let me clarify, I am not trying going to argue this with you. Top engine builders in the world would agree and say do not run a solid crank pulleys. I urge you to read that small link. There is a lot of great information available, and it's all for free.
As stated previously:
We're not here to put down other products, but we have worked with street and race engines for a long time now. Oscar Sr. easily has 30+ years of experience building Honda race engines.
All Jackson Racing championship-winning race cars have used a harmonic dampened crank pulley. The Skunk2 9-sec NA drag engines use harmonic dampened crank pulleys. NASCAR, IMSA, F1... Every great engine builder that we have met uses harmonic dampened crank pulleys.
So believe what you want, but you must understand why they engineer something that way.
-OJR
What "personal attack"????? I'm simply pointing out the facts. It's fine and dandy to talk about your other race cars BUT they came with harmonic balancers stock so they need one BUT the JAZZ/FIT L-15a engine standard equipment PULLEY is not a harmonic balancer therefore it doesn't NEED one.
The same with the article that you keep talking about they have good information ABOUT ENGINES THAT HAVE A HARMONIC BALANCER which the Jazz/Fit does not have. You are comparing apples & Oranges
You have your OPINION but lets not forget all the other manufacturers that make solid pulleys they are not concerned about the problem and I'm sure they did just as much R&D as your company did and they determined that a solid pulley is viable and apparently they understand that IT'S JUST A PULLEY. IF THEY THOUGHT IT WAS NECESSARY MANUFACTURE A "DAMPENED PULLEY they could have but they chose not to. That is because a damped pulley is not necessary in my and their opinions.
Would a company manufacture a product that they though would fail or cause engine failures and have to pay for all the claims they got for faulty equipment I think not.
And what about all the people running pulleys for years that have not had problems running a solid pulley??? Aren't you forgetting that these pulleys have been installed around the world for years even before the USDM model was introduced and many vehicles with many tens of thousands of miles and over 5 years of use on them are still running just fine with solid pulleys.
There has been ample use on the L-15a engine of the solid pulleys FOR YEARS with no reported problems of increased engine failures due to solid pulley use so I guess we will just have to agree to disagree while you ignore a large body of evidence with many hundreds of satisfied users all over the world that use solid pulleys on their JAZZ/FIT.
That is what this forum is all about JAZZ/FIT not other engines some of which come with and need to use a harmonic balancer of which the JAZZ/FIT is not one of them.
What "personal attack"????? I'm simply pointing out the facts. It's fine and dandy to talk about your other race cars BUT they came with harmonic balancers stock so they need one BUT the JAZZ/FIT L-15a engine standard equipment PULLEY is not a harmonic balancer therefore it doesn't NEED one.
The same with the article that you keep talking about they have good information ABOUT ENGINES THAT HAVE A HARMONIC BALANCER which the Jazz/Fit does not have. You are comparing apples & Oranges
You have your OPINION but lets not forget all the other manufacturers that make solid pulleys they are not concerned about the problem and I'm sure they did just as much R&D as your company did and they determined that a solid pulley is viable and apparently they understand that IT'S JUST A PULLEY. IF THEY THOUGHT IT WAS NECESSARY MANUFACTURE A "DAMPENED PULLEY they could have but they chose not to. That is because a damped pulley is not necessary in my and their opinions.
Would a company manufacture a product that they though would fail or cause engine failures and have to pay for all the claims they got for faulty equipment I think not.
And what about all the people running pulleys for years that have not had problems running a solid pulley??? Aren't you forgetting that these pulleys have been installed around the world for years even before the USDM model was introduced and many vehicles with many tens of thousands of miles and over 5 years of use on them are still running just fine with solid pulleys.
There has been ample use on the L-15a engine of the solid pulleys FOR YEARS with no reported problems of increased engine failures due to solid pulley use so I guess we will just have to agree to disagree while you ignore a large body of evidence with many hundreds of satisfied users all over the world that use solid pulleys on their JAZZ/FIT.
That is what this forum is all about JAZZ/FIT not other engines some of which come with and need to use a harmonic balancer of which the JAZZ/FIT is not one of them.
You said yourself that material was there to reduce harshness & Noise. It is there to DAMPER it. With a solid pulley you get a little more vibration, not enough to be uncomfortable but its there. The increased vibration will, in time, add extra stress to the crank. You may not see problems now, in 2 years or in 5 years... but how about in 7,8,9,10?
And please refrain from calling other members vulgar names.
You said yourself that material was there to reduce harshness & Noise. It is there to DAMPER it. With a solid pulley you get a little more vibration, not enough to be uncomfortable but its there. The increased vibration will, in time, add extra stress to the crank. You may not see problems now, in 2 years or in 5 years... but how about in 7,8,9,10?
And please refrain from calling other members vulgar names.
Where did I call anyone a vulgar name??? You ever heard of moderation by PM? the PROPER way to do it???
But anyway I suggest you take the advice of the other member that told you to stick to selling cars and leave the mechanical stuff alone as you keep putting your foot in it.
The pulley eliminates engine noise. Yea so what about all the engines out there built with no dampers. There are millions of multi-cylinder motor cycles out there turning ungodly RPM levels without Harmonic balancers. How about all those outboard engines strapped to the back of boats. Don't even get started on the Harleys out there all chugging along fine with no balancers. The fact is there are millions of engines in use every day with not a harmonic balancer in sight or needed the JAZZ/FIT included.
The fact is I said you could "run" the Jazz/Fit engine without a pulley and I guess your mentor forgot to let you know that ANY ENGINE CAN BE RUN WITHOUT A HARMONIC BALANCER or in the JAZZ/FIT case pulley. Notice I didn't say run the snot out of it. Any engine can be run without a flywheel or balancer at all. You only run into problems at different RPM levels in engines that need a balancer but ANY ENGINE will "Run" without one if you have a sleeve for the front seal to ride on. You really need to go to school to learn something about auto mechanics.
Now onto the Jazz/Fit. You fly over here with a lightweight solid pulley and I will pull off my stock pulley on my JAZZ and get a sleeve made up for the front seal to run on and I will drive you around in my Jazz with no pulley until the engine starts to overheat from the lack of a turning water pump. You will then give me free the solid lightweight pulley because you were wrong and I will install it and get back to you in 10 years about my bearing wear..... how's that????
And if you are sooo worried about your perceived increased engine wear with a solid pulley why on earth did you install a supercharger??? The supercharger will cause much more increase wear on the engine just because of the increased HP and torque levels not to mention increased cylinder pressure, and wear on the first bearing due to the automatic belt tightener putting above stock pressure onto the drive belt. Your supercharger is causing much more increased engine wear than any pulley could ever cause.
What "personal attack"????? I'm simply pointing out the facts. It's fine and dandy to talk about your other race cars BUT they came with harmonic balancers stock so they need one BUT the JAZZ/FIT L-15a engine standard equipment PULLEY is not a harmonic balancer therefore it doesn't NEED one.
The same with the article that you keep talking about they have good information ABOUT ENGINES THAT HAVE A HARMONIC BALANCER which the Jazz/Fit does not have. You are comparing apples & Oranges
You have your OPINION but lets not forget all the other manufacturers that make solid pulleys they are not concerned about the problem and I'm sure they did just as much R&D as your company did and they determined that a solid pulley is viable and apparently they understand that IT'S JUST A PULLEY. IF THEY THOUGHT IT WAS NECESSARY MANUFACTURE A "DAMPENED PULLEY they could have but they chose not to. That is because a damped pulley is not necessary in my and their opinions.
Would a company manufacture a product that they though would fail or cause engine failures and have to pay for all the claims they got for faulty equipment I think not.
And what about all the people running pulleys for years that have not had problems running a solid pulley??? Aren't you forgetting that these pulleys have been installed around the world for years even before the USDM model was introduced and many vehicles with many tens of thousands of miles and over 5 years of use on them are still running just fine with solid pulleys.
There has been ample use on the L-15a engine of the solid pulleys FOR YEARS with no reported problems of increased engine failures due to solid pulley use so I guess we will just have to agree to disagree while you ignore a large body of evidence with many hundreds of satisfied users all over the world that use solid pulleys on their JAZZ/FIT.
That is what this forum is all about JAZZ/FIT not other engines some of which come with and need to use a harmonic balancer of which the JAZZ/FIT is not one of them.
yeah, but they didn't build the part in conjunction with the use of supercharger did they? i think KW's knows how its parts will work with the fit better than the companies making lightweight pulleys will. its as simple as that. if you don't like it clay, go hassle some noobies or something.
__________________
if i could travel through time sometime....
pep pep?
Originally Posted by Btrthnezr3 Say Wha??? You mean, there's another reason to have a suspension?
How about you post something useful for a change instead of filling this thread with useless posts like you did to the supercharger post.
For all your supposed brilliance you are missing or not understanding the main point a solid pulley of the same diameter will have NO EFFECT on the supercharger system.
It's an inanimate object it can't determine if it "Likes or dislikes" certain parts as long as it's the same diameter (like i posted) everything runs the same neither the drivebelt or the supercharger "knows" the pulley has been changed as it runs at the exact same speed. It's simple physics go back to school or pay attention in class tomorrow.
How about you post something useful for a change instead of filling this thread with useless posts like you did to the supercharger post.
For all your supposed brilliance you are missing or not understanding the main point a solid pulley of the same diameter will have NO EFFECT on the supercharger system.
It's an inanimate object it can't determine if it "Likes or dislikes" certain parts as long as it's the same diameter (like i posted) everything runs the same neither the drivebelt or the supercharger "knows" the pulley has been changed as it runs at the exact same speed. It's simple physics go back to school or pay attention in class tomorrow.
my brilliance is not supposed, its quite obvious. as far as going to school, i've already had my fair share, but theres no cure to presumptious attitudes such as yours.
none of my posts in the supercharger thread have been useless, if i got a question, i ask.
isn't that how its meant to be? so that i don't turn into one of these people who you like to constantly correct? if you find them useless, take your own advice, and put me on your ignore list.
__________________
if i could travel through time sometime....
pep pep?
Originally Posted by Btrthnezr3 Say Wha??? You mean, there's another reason to have a suspension?
That's because there are not too many people posting here that know what they are talking about. Ha.
All you whiners wouldn't believe the reps I get and the PMs from knowledgeable members supporting my position but I won't post their names so the whiners won't flame on them. How do you think I got all the rep if nobody agrees with me????
It's just the whiners that I have neg repped in the past that keep on with the flames because they never get over getting the neg
I don't go begging for it or get it from buddies just for the fun of it like some people.
I see that you are still on ZERO rep since AUG 2007 looks like you don't post anything worthy of rep just like this last post of yours.
Unlike some people I don't guess about technical posts if I'm not sure of something I look it up or don't bother to post.
Take this thread for example there are a bunch of people posting that have never ever worked on any engine or are having trouble understanding simple physics of the circumference of a pulley in relation to driving engine components despite having "their fair share of school" but continue to post their inane comments.
While in mechanics school we actually ran engines without balancers or flywheels or many other parts just to see what would happen.
We got many used and new engines, and cars donated to the school so we were free to do what we wanted to to further our understanding of how the internal combustion engine works.
Being kids we offered suggestions on how to destroy engines as part of the class on investigating failures. So we actually ran engines to destruction causing many failures and then pulled the abused engines apart to see what happened inside.
We did everything a person could think of to destroy them including, running with no oil, sugar in the gas tank, no balancers, no flywheel, no, coolant, no fan, water in the oil, anything and everything you could think of we tried and got credit for destroying engines after we did "our experiments" and wrote a report on our findings.
So fact I KNOW for a fact not GUESS any engine will run without certain parts including the harmonic balancer because myself and other students HAVE ACTUALLY DONE IT no guessing or theory involved just plain old experimenting unlike some people who have never actually done any work on any engine that run on with their uneducated GUESSES and whining
How about you post something useful for a change instead of filling this thread with useless posts like you did to the supercharger post.
For all your supposed brilliance you are missing or not understanding the main point a solid pulley of the same diameter will have NO EFFECT on the supercharger system.
It's an inanimate object it can't determine if it "Likes or dislikes" certain parts as long as it's the same diameter (like i posted) everything runs the same neither the drivebelt or the supercharger "knows" the pulley has been changed as it runs at the exact same speed. It's simple physics go back to school or pay attention in class tomorrow.
doesn't the decreased weight of the crank pulley have an effect on the way the engine runs because it takes less work to turn the crank pulley than it would with the stock heavier one so theres more torque which i guess will have some kind of effect on the engine
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