Hesitation / bogging sensation
#1
04-01-2019, 09:39 PM
Hesitation / bogging sensation
Have been noticing when I give the car a little gas, revs will rise briefly, then sink a little bit ... then the car will downshift to get going. Shifting is a little bit harsher as well.
Just notice this, and it started to happen suspiciously soon after I cleaned my AEM Dryflow filter ~2 weeks ago. I inadvertently left too much water in the filter and sucked some out with the engine, so I then ...
1) Squeezed all the remaining water out with paper towels (no idea if this is kosher)
2) Blew water droplets out of the intake box with compressed air can. Accidentally got some of the propellant on the sensor in the intake box (what sensor is this?)
I tried swapping in the old (previous, dirty) filter today, yes I kept one just in case the whole AEM thing didn't wok out OK, and did not notice much of a change; will drive with it for a few days. It's dirty so no matter what I have to go back to AEM or get a new one soon which is nbd.
Do I need to clean the sensor? Am I just imagining the whole correlation with the filter clean and something else is going on? And no, I'm not worried about the water itself damaging the engine; I can't possibly have sucked enough in that it wouldn't just get blown out the other side (presumably nicely warmed). The car did not like the amount of vapor I was feeding it but normal behavior resumed as soon as I sorted the filter back to normal.
Just notice this, and it started to happen suspiciously soon after I cleaned my AEM Dryflow filter ~2 weeks ago. I inadvertently left too much water in the filter and sucked some out with the engine, so I then ...
1) Squeezed all the remaining water out with paper towels (no idea if this is kosher)
2) Blew water droplets out of the intake box with compressed air can. Accidentally got some of the propellant on the sensor in the intake box (what sensor is this?)
I tried swapping in the old (previous, dirty) filter today, yes I kept one just in case the whole AEM thing didn't wok out OK, and did not notice much of a change; will drive with it for a few days. It's dirty so no matter what I have to go back to AEM or get a new one soon which is nbd.
Do I need to clean the sensor? Am I just imagining the whole correlation with the filter clean and something else is going on? And no, I'm not worried about the water itself damaging the engine; I can't possibly have sucked enough in that it wouldn't just get blown out the other side (presumably nicely warmed). The car did not like the amount of vapor I was feeding it but normal behavior resumed as soon as I sorted the filter back to normal.
Last edited by fujisawa; 04-01-2019 at 09:44 PM.
#2
04-02-2019, 04:40 AM
Mass Air Flow sensor, or MAF for short. Lets the brain know how much air is coming in so that it can match up the fuel appropriately.
Cleaning
The MAF is mounted to the vehicle’s air cleaner box and connected to the computer with a wiring harness. If you remove the mounting bolts and wiring harness, you can remove the entire mass airflow sensor unit and open it to expose the sensor. The sensor is a small unit with two exposed wires; the wires heat up when the car is running, and the MAF measures the airflow by detecting how quickly the flow of air cools the temperature of the wires. Spraying these wires clean with MAF cleaner or electrical contact cleaner and leaving the MAF to air dry is the best approach to cleaning this sensitive instrument. Once it is dry, it can be reinstalled and the car can be started again. If engine performance is restored or the check-engine-soon light goes off, it is likely that the MAF was dirty and not broken.
- courtesy of itstillruns.comyou can pull the maf and blow it out properly, or use a sensor safe contact cleaner to help displace water, but I think I'd recommend checking your transmission fluid level, just to play it safe. water shouldn't be a big deal, it may well resolve itself after a few days. I cant really see co2 screwin up your maf.I've found zero dirt past my stock air filter. have you found any dust beyond your aftermarket one? This aint related to your issue, ofcourse.
- courtesy of itstillruns.comyou can pull the maf and blow it out properly, or use a sensor safe contact cleaner to help displace water, but I think I'd recommend checking your transmission fluid level, just to play it safe. water shouldn't be a big deal, it may well resolve itself after a few days. I cant really see co2 screwin up your maf.I've found zero dirt past my stock air filter. have you found any dust beyond your aftermarket one? This aint related to your issue, ofcourse.
Last edited by Pyts; 04-02-2019 at 04:48 AM.
#3
04-02-2019, 05:23 PM
Great suggestions, both of them! I won't get to cleaning the sensor for a few days at least, but I did check the transmission level and it is low! Not "off the charts" low but just below the bottom of the "X" range on the dipstick. I will have to get under there and check for leaks ... something else to worry about now 
#4
04-03-2019, 04:23 PM
Update: Cleaned MAF sensor, looked pristine though, no change.
Dad suggested ruling out a bad tank of gas, good suggestion, filled it with premium today too soon to tell.
ATF level actually looks good; I had forgotten you have to let the fluid drain down for a few minutes before measuring.
Have tested both old dirty air filter and new (old but cleaned) one. Not feeling like this is a thing here at this point.
Car definitely feels down on power.. Wonder when Wife will notice.
Next ... Checking the plugs ... Was just in there a few weeks ago so at least I know how to do it without tearing it all apart, can only check tightness though not remove plugs.
Dad suggested ruling out a bad tank of gas, good suggestion, filled it with premium today too soon to tell.
ATF level actually looks good; I had forgotten you have to let the fluid drain down for a few minutes before measuring.
Have tested both old dirty air filter and new (old but cleaned) one. Not feeling like this is a thing here at this point.
Car definitely feels down on power.. Wonder when Wife will notice.
Next ... Checking the plugs ...
Was just in there a few weeks ago so at least I know how to do it without tearing it all apart, can only check tightness though not remove plugs.
#5
04-03-2019, 05:04 PM
Switch back to that ol stock air filter :} then disconnect the battery for a few minutes, hook it back up, drive for a little bit. The idea there is to reset the computer and make it re-learn some junk. But dooooo check the spark plugs. In fact I'd do that first.
#6
04-03-2019, 05:31 PM
Plugs 1-3 are tight. I can't get at the bolt for plug 4, there is some kind of wiring harness or bracket in the way of the socket wrench ... Not sure if I would be able to slide out the coil either. I can't see what exactly is blocking it, just feel.
#7
04-04-2019, 12:21 PM
So frustrated by this. Symptoms are, when moving along, a slight press of the gas pedal doesn't speed up the car like I'd expect - RPMs rise a little, then sink, then the car has to downshift to get moving. Also feels generally slower than normal, seems to coast downhill at higher RPMs (and more drag) than I would expect. No idea what is going on yet. (2012 Fit, AT)
Car revs just fine in neutral, progresses smoothly up the RPM range, no jumping around for any given input. Transmission has mild "clunk" going into R from D, but not particularly notable IMO, you can only hear it if you listen for it with windows down, could easily be normal.
Things I've ruled out, aka decided are unlikely:
Plugs loose (3 of 4 checked); they are tight
MAF sensor
Air filter (still possible issue, just seems not to fit the issue)
Low tire pressure
Bad fuel
ATF issue
->Transmission issues still very much on table, but at least the ATF that comes out of the dipstick looks just perfect, no evidence of material in it.
Other ideas:
Plug 4
Torque converter
TPS issue
Other sensor issue
Some kind of wheel/brake/CV drag (doesn't explain RPM bogging issues though)
No check engine light. Yet.
Car revs just fine in neutral, progresses smoothly up the RPM range, no jumping around for any given input. Transmission has mild "clunk" going into R from D, but not particularly notable IMO, you can only hear it if you listen for it with windows down, could easily be normal.
Things I've ruled out, aka decided are unlikely:
Plugs loose (3 of 4 checked); they are tight
MAF sensor
Air filter (still possible issue, just seems not to fit the issue)
Low tire pressure
Bad fuel
ATF issue
->Transmission issues still very much on table, but at least the ATF that comes out of the dipstick looks just perfect, no evidence of material in it.
Other ideas:
Plug 4
Torque converter
TPS issue
Other sensor issue
Some kind of wheel/brake/CV drag (doesn't explain RPM bogging issues though)
No check engine light. Yet.
#8
04-04-2019, 01:19 PM
It is possible hesitation has nothing to do with air filter cleaning and is a coincidence. Some other ideas.
There is the possibility that MAF is failing. You can test it. These are uber-sensitive so mechanics use specialized MAF sensor cleaner. Other cleaners and chemicals can destroy the MAF. The synthetic air filter cleaner/water/dirt combination could kill the MAF. You can run some basic tests on the MAF with a voltmeter. If you have an OBD monitor you can do additional analysis.
Some steps I have used on other cars with similar symptoms:
- Check for vacuum leaks. Use smoke test. As you recently dismantled air intake, check everything for small cracks or bad alignment.
- The throttle position sensor can cause odd drivability issues. These can fail intermittently with no codes so can be difficult to diagnose. These are generally not repairable.
- Cleaning the throttle body can resolve some idle issues (consequently allowing engine to map properly throughout powerband). Apparently you have to be careful of grease pivot points so can't soak the TB (search the forums here).
- Fuel filter/pump. Get those checked.
- What is condition of spark plugs and coils? Worth the effort to pull all 4 and inspect as they may tell a story.
- When is the last time you had valves adjusted? The exhaust valves tend to bind up; Honda Wellesley told me 105k miles is approximate service recommendation but people here with much less mileage are noticing valves need adjusting.
- Since you are in Salt City, your electrics are probably corroded to hell. Low voltage may impact spark and hobble some systems sometimes. Do a voltage drop test under load for battery, major grounds, major positive connections. You can have your battery and alternator checked at local parts store.
Don't go throwing parts at this. Also, if you choose new electronics, only use OEM Honda.
There is the possibility that MAF is failing. You can test it. These are uber-sensitive so mechanics use specialized MAF sensor cleaner. Other cleaners and chemicals can destroy the MAF. The synthetic air filter cleaner/water/dirt combination could kill the MAF. You can run some basic tests on the MAF with a voltmeter. If you have an OBD monitor you can do additional analysis.
Some steps I have used on other cars with similar symptoms:
- Check for vacuum leaks. Use smoke test. As you recently dismantled air intake, check everything for small cracks or bad alignment.
- The throttle position sensor can cause odd drivability issues. These can fail intermittently with no codes so can be difficult to diagnose. These are generally not repairable.
- Cleaning the throttle body can resolve some idle issues (consequently allowing engine to map properly throughout powerband). Apparently you have to be careful of grease pivot points so can't soak the TB (search the forums here).
- Fuel filter/pump. Get those checked.
- What is condition of spark plugs and coils? Worth the effort to pull all 4 and inspect as they may tell a story.
- When is the last time you had valves adjusted? The exhaust valves tend to bind up; Honda Wellesley told me 105k miles is approximate service recommendation but people here with much less mileage are noticing valves need adjusting.
- Since you are in Salt City, your electrics are probably corroded to hell. Low voltage may impact spark and hobble some systems sometimes. Do a voltage drop test under load for battery, major grounds, major positive connections. You can have your battery and alternator checked at local parts store.
Don't go throwing parts at this. Also, if you choose new electronics, only use OEM Honda.
#10
04-07-2019, 07:18 PM
Great suggestion Fiting, you were spot on! Your info to keep looking at the MAF sensor saved me from moving on for a while.
As my car has only 40k miles, some of the suggestions were less likely. Nonetheless, I would have taken a serious look into plugs, valves, and TPS.
My dad commented that it would be difficult for a dealer to diagnose this, as there are no codes. And the car runs actually pretty ok.. If you didn't own the car, for example if you were test driving it as a used car, you'd think this was just the way the car is - slow.
BUT ace in the hole here is, dad has the same car, so at my suggestion (he was not a huge fan) we put his sensor on me and bam, car ran perfect, even better gas mileage than before I started to notice low power!
So. Next challenge .. Where to buy sensor? Bernardi will have it, but looks like maybe advance/autozone might have better prices ... If I ask them for the one for my car and validate its Hitachi, that should be fine right? (yes there are cheaper off brand ones, no I am not interested)
As my car has only 40k miles, some of the suggestions were less likely. Nonetheless, I would have taken a serious look into plugs, valves, and TPS.
My dad commented that it would be difficult for a dealer to diagnose this, as there are no codes. And the car runs actually pretty ok.. If you didn't own the car, for example if you were test driving it as a used car, you'd think this was just the way the car is - slow.
BUT ace in the hole here is, dad has the same car, so at my suggestion (he was not a huge fan) we put his sensor on me and bam, car ran perfect, even better gas mileage than before I started to notice low power!
So. Next challenge .. Where to buy sensor? Bernardi will have it, but looks like maybe advance/autozone might have better prices ... If I ask them for the one for my car and validate its Hitachi, that should be fine right? (yes there are cheaper off brand ones, no I am not interested)
Last edited by fujisawa; 04-07-2019 at 07:35 PM.
#11
04-07-2019, 09:00 PM
Awesome!
Your dad is right. Bad MAFs can fail intermittently or drift off spec and can be very difficult to diagnose.
I think you need to bite the bullet and get a MAF from the dealer. Do not go to Amazon or eBay or Autozone, even their premium; unless you want to be hunting down MAF issues every 6 months; I have done that too many times and it gets expensive. You want a MAF that is reliable and will last a long time so only OEM here.
Also dump that airfilter and buy a top-quality dry air filter from a company like WIX or OEM. Now you know the MAF is delicate, avoid K&M and other cleanable air filters. My other car has similar sensitivity to those fancy filters.
Your dad is right. Bad MAFs can fail intermittently or drift off spec and can be very difficult to diagnose.
I think you need to bite the bullet and get a MAF from the dealer. Do not go to Amazon or eBay or Autozone, even their premium; unless you want to be hunting down MAF issues every 6 months; I have done that too many times and it gets expensive. You want a MAF that is reliable and will last a long time so only OEM here.
Also dump that airfilter and buy a top-quality dry air filter from a company like WIX or OEM. Now you know the MAF is delicate, avoid K&M and other cleanable air filters. My other car has similar sensitivity to those fancy filters.
As I get near 40 you would think Id learned to listen to him but NOPE had to make my own expensive mistakes first ...
#13
04-08-2019, 08:51 PM
Rock Auto claims "Original OE part." ... trustworthy? I have never used Rock Auto but I hear people on the forums suggest it (non Honda brands included).
https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo...=3020145&jsn=7
This is $63
Advance Auto Parts, claims it fits, same price as Bernardi but 20% off coupon and free shipping so this is 146~$
Not even going to post the Amazon one .. OK I will for fun (in fairness it is free returns I guess). But my bet is stolen, not going to support that.
Comparison, Bernardi at $170 shipped :/
https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo...=3020145&jsn=7
This is $63
Advance Auto Parts, claims it fits, same price as Bernardi but 20% off coupon and free shipping so this is 146~$
Not even going to post the Amazon one .. OK I will for fun (in fairness it is free returns I guess). But my bet is stolen, not going to support that.
Comparison, Bernardi at $170 shipped :/
#14
04-09-2019, 09:20 AM
I'd say RockAuto is trustworthy.
Honda doesn't manufacture sensors, they outsource to other electronics makers. Hitachi is a reputable brand and I wouldn't be surprised if the Honda sensor was actually made by Hitachi, I'm more used to see Denso on Honda cars.
You can look at the sensor that's actually in your car.
Honda doesn't manufacture sensors, they outsource to other electronics makers. Hitachi is a reputable brand and I wouldn't be surprised if the Honda sensor was actually made by Hitachi, I'm more used to see Denso on Honda cars.
You can look at the sensor that's actually in your car.
#15
04-09-2019, 09:38 AM
Both Denso and Hitachi are available in addition to no name - I bet Denso is used on some other fits of the same year. Some of these shopping sites make a distinction between suzuka and sayama plants so there might be minor parts differences. But mine is Hitachi.
#16
04-10-2019, 07:34 PM
Ordered from RockAuto, $63+$3 shipping is a great deal assuming it's actually the "OE Part" claimed .. RockAuto's reputation survived my googling it and asking around so I think odds are pretty good 
#17
04-13-2019, 08:57 PM
Rock Auto part installed! Things are feeling pretty good on my short test run!
Saved over $100 vs direct from Bernardi ... And this Hitachi part sure looks bang on identical to what I had ...
Saved over $100 vs direct from Bernardi ... And this Hitachi part sure looks bang on identical to what I had ...
#18
04-14-2019, 12:29 AM
They're my go to parts provider, time permitting. Ran a couple grand through em and will continue to do so as the local shops have such insane profit margins. I've never received a wrong or faulty part.
Glad to hear your vic perked up
Glad to hear your vic perked up
#19
04-16-2019, 06:27 PM
Well I've got my low flow filter back on and with the new MAF it now feels exactly as good as before! I've also put two tanks of Kirkland s best premium but with everything else going on, if that's added 1.6lb-ft or whatever, the assometer can't detect it .. Going to keep going though based on what I've been hearing about high compression and timing and reliability.