You know... I noticed that same effect in my '06 Element 5MT. It seemed to do it more before it was warmed up, but I would try to move the floormat off the accelerator...

and then remember I didn't have floormats.

 

The cruise isn't "paused" exactly... but sort of. All modern cars are computer controlled and the cruise control is (or should be) no different. The cruise is (or should be) fully aware of the clutch engagement and will "let go of the gas" the same way you would. I'm rankly surprised that a new DBW car like the Fit would would do it any differently. It is unnecessary (or lazy at best) and, in my opinion, makes cruise w/ manual much less functional. It doesn't affect me because we're getting auto.

"Usually", I guess... depends on where and how you drive. But I'd rather my car not make that decision for me. I live in the mountains and there are LOTS of times where I'm on the highway and need to downshift to make it up a grade and I'd find it annoying if I had to re-engage my cruise control every time.

Now I wish we'd get a stick shift! I'm sure I can reprogram their unit (provided it is computer controlled - maybe they cheaped out on that) to "fix"
that lazy mistake

Of course... it probably doesn't bother anyone other than those of us that design these things for a livign

And I wish I never had to watch my '84 CRX burn in my grandma's garage (which also burned down). RIP little guy.... you are missed.

Lesson of the day: Don't put a dented can of lacquer thinner on a rounded roof like a CRX when you have a trouble lamp clamped to the steering wheel. *bump* *glug glug* *KABOOM!!* *sigh*

 

I've never driven a MT with Cruise that didn't disengage when the clutch was depressed. This in my opinion is a Flaw and no one cheaped out on this. for me disengaging is feature as I'm often using the clutch to kick the cruise off. Coming into town, all I have to do is downshift and the cruise is shut down while I downshift. Getting ready to pass a car, i downshift, the cruise is disengaged and I can easily pass. radar detector goes off and without stepping on the brakes or pushing the "cancel button" I can either disengage the cruise "quietly" and downshift. Also, in an emergency when mashing on the brakes, that extra millisecond between when your left foot hits the clutch and your right foot makes it to the brakes helps to disengage the cruise sooner.

Unless you live in a really hilly area, you shouldn't need to shift that much while using the cruise. I don't have to shift much here in VT and even on my trip down to visit the in-laws in PA, I only have to drop a gear for a few hills (Rt 88 in upstate NY). The 5MT is geared a little more aggressively up top than the auto so it doesn't need to shift as much on hills. From what I understand, the minute a gust of wind comes around, the 5AT downshifts.

Those in the business (doesn't matter what business it is) are always the most critical


WORDS TO LIVE BY. I can't count the number of times I've almost run into this scenario.

As a side note, now you've got me wondering how the cruise could be improved from a programming standpoint.

~SB

 

I maintain its a "flaw" it the design to have it turn off when using the clutch. The fact you use the flaw to your advantage/preference, in my opinion, doesn't change that. Let's pretend that changing the radio station - by flaw - turned your high beams off. Its conceivable (ok, not really) that *someone* might actually prefer that and they take advantage of it regularly... but its still a flaw. The cruise off and/or unset button is there for that reason, and the brake (and other regulated events, such as shifting into N) turns it off for safety. Since the cruise control has ZERO interaction, reliance, or interoperability with the transmission - then there should be zero difference in using it with the MT vs the AT. I wouldn't like it, but logic would dictate it would be OK/consistent if it disengaged every time the AT shifted as well... but I think most of us would think that was silly.

Incidentally... when you pass, presuming you haven't shifted... does it also disengage the cruise? That's another one that some cars do that is contrary to DOT/TC/EASC "guidelines". It is "supposed" to let your gas pedal override the current cruising speed (so you accelerate) but keep the previously set speed active so when you finish passing and let go of the gas pedal, the car will slow naturally to the speed you were at and then the cruise will maintain that speed going forth (and according to the same bulletin, the illuminated cruise indicator should flash while the current speed is above set speed). Several cars disengage cruise when you hit the gas, while others (rare in North America I think) will keep the speed that you are at whenever you let go of the gas pedal. I find the former behavior a little annoying, but at least safe while the latter, in my opinion, is potentially unsafe. However, regarding safety, it is always the driver's responsibility to understand the operation of their car - quirks or otherwise - and ensure safe driving.

If the cruise can be programmed... you can bet that I'll be playing with it as soon as I can!

- Steven

ps. I didn't get a call back from the dealer yesterday as I had expected! Maybe they can't find the car?!? We made the "deal" and I put a deposit down, but they didn't actually have any inventory and said they'd get back to me in 24 hours with what they found. Meanwhile, I found a nice orange Sport model for CHEAP in a neighbouring town. It is used, with 8000km (about 5000 miles) and is discounted about $7000 from new. That's the best used deal I've seen. However, there is a catch. If I believe the dealer, it had a "minor" accident where the rear tail light was damaged. In this province we have a government-run insurance monopoly. On new cars, you can opt for "replacement insurance" which states that if >$2000 damage is sustained, that the owner can opt for a payout equal to the purchase price of a brand new car rather than repairs. Of course, 99% go for it (why not?) and then the car is auctioned and has to be sold as "rebuilt" when repaired. That stigma on the title brings the resale value WAY down, but in many cases they are perfectly good cars. I am going to check it out. By law, they have to retain pre-repair photographs and post-repair gov't inspection reports.

 

If you press the gas, no it doesn't disengage the cruise control. It lets you speed up, and then when you let go of the gas it returns to the previously set speed.

I missed that you were getting an automatic, so disregard my comments

For what it's worth, the fact that the clutch disengages the cruise control goes back to my former 1994 Acura Integra and 2004 Honda S2000. So even though this newer Fit has a DBW system, the way the cruise control operates hasn't changed from previous Honda designs. Must be a quirk... But like Specboy said, It is something I am used to and I don't consider it a "flaw".

 

And when I said "flaw"... I put it in quotes to try to convey a tone of, "if you want to be super picky technical"

There's really nothing wrong with it from the driver's perspective... I mean, its whatever you're used to, right? You make an excellent point regarding your '94 and '04 Hondas... Honda probably deliberately didn't "keep up with technology" because they, unlike probably most car companies, have "customers for life". And on the most part, we are creatures of habit and the majority of people are discomforted by change. A small change like that may disturb more customers (that are used to "the old way") than its worth. After all... other than a cruise control designer who is familiar with the DOT bulletins (which are NOT to be confused with "regulations" or even "recommendations")... who's going to even notice?

If you go back far enough, it was a technical limitation that required a "dumb" cruise control to disengage when the clutch was engaged. But even before DBW, the mechanical disconnect between throttle, cruise, and engine was made and the cruise systems were fully electronic. DBW should have spelled the end to any association between transmission and cruise whatsoever... but I didn't account for familiarity and nostalgia

Honda engineers are smart cookies. I'm sure it wasn't an accident.



In case i got off on the wrong foot with anyone... I wasn't at all slagging the product. Its just a curiosity to me because of what I happen to do for a job, that's all. I recognize to non cruise-dorks that it is an infinitesimally tiny issue in any regard.

- Steven

ps. I was at an auto show this year where Lincoln was showing one of their new Navigators. The cruise control had no less than SEVEN buttons! How bloody complicated can you get?!?!

 

I'm still not seeing this as a flaw. It's a safety thing in my opinion that i do use to my advantage. The fact that ALL cruise control systems pre-DBW MT were like this does not mean it's a "flaw" (I'll use the quotes too ). You mention that Honda didn't keep up with the technology and I'm guessing this is not the case that they didn't keep up, but that they chose not to implement a technology. Honda has always been a "driver's" car that put the driver in control. A cruise system like this takes control away from the driver. Also, Honda has a rep for keeping customers but they aren't an "exclusive" club that cater only to their current customers. They are always looking for more customers and new features draw them in. This would likely have been a choice that honda Chose not to implement and for what reason, no one other than honda would know. I highly doubt it's because they "didn't keep up". To the best of my knowledge, NO honda has this "feature" that you describe and that would include the 6MTs in the Acura and Honda lineup.

Out of curiosity, on a MT gearbox, Without a large number of sensors, how would the cruise (when enabled in 4th) know whether to Rev match to get to 3rd gear, or drop the RPM's for 5th?

Of note, My Ridgeline 5AT disengages the cruise when I kick it into D3

- on my side... I like to debate oh... and welcome to FF

~SB

 

Its cool... i see it opposite. I think you have LESS driver control the way Honda has it, not more. You have NO ability to keep cruise on while shifting. But the other way round, you have the ability to take the cruise off when you shift, if you choose.

Its a very small point.

To answer your question... it depends. In many modern cars, its the car's engine management computer that determines how to rev match while shifting - and that's true whether its a manual or an automatic in many (not all) cases. In these situations, the cruise doesn't have to be that smart... in fact, the cruise isn't in the equation at all at that point. The cruise would simply tell the computer what speed to go and the computer would do the rest. For the smart, which didn't have cruise at all, the computer only had half this capability. It still took care of rev matching, but had no concept of "hold speed" so the cruise had to be programmed to send whatever signals were required to mimic your right foot. If the car does not have rev-matching engine management (are there any any more?) then the cruise has to do it all itself. In this case, it would make calculations based on which gear you're coming out of and what the engine load and speed were when you came out of it. In other words, it would guess. It'd be up to the driver to not, for example, be at the high end of 4th gear and then suddenly shift to 3rd (if you were at the high end, you'd either be shifting in to 5th or not at all).

By what was already described though... the Fit does the rev matching for you.


I think I inappropriately used the word "flaw"

- Steven

 

You mentioned VW... is there any other manufacturer (aside from lux or near-lux vehicles) that routinely uses a cruise system that does not disengage with the clutch?

A big issue is this--the manual transmission market is largely divided into two groups: bargain-priced economy cars, and upscale performance/sporty cars.

The bargain end, mostly 4-cylinder compacts with low-power engines, doesn't demand much in the way of electronic gizmos. It's also a dying market, as automatics have improved, manually-selectable automatics and CVTs have become common. 4-speed automatics are as obsolete as 3-speeds were 10-15 years ago. I doubt you're going to see much in the way of cool innovation in this field... A quick search at Cars.com shows that new automatic Fits within 500 miles outnumber manuals 10-1. This is in a cheapie economy car... in 1980, 35% of ALL cars were sold with manuals. In many cases, as you start adding features, the option for a manual disappears.

The other end is the performance side... whether these disappear as well as dual-clutch and automated manuals take hold remains to be seen. I've been surprised with the numbers of high end sports cars that are sold with automatics or automated transmissions of some type (I live in expensive sports-car land, i.e. Monterey)

 

You make an excellent point Occam... and in North America... no, I can't readily think of any besides the VW that you wouldn't classifiy as "near-luxury" vehicles. But of course I'm not familiar with a lot of the makes/models - I presumed the Honda would be the same. Even the VW gets into the "pricey" side of things. The smart's transmission isn't a completely fair comparisson I guess. Although, technically it is a manual transmission, it is clearly different. It has a clutch, but no clutch pedal. That's the cheapest car I can think of where the cruise doesn't disengage on a shift... but then, of course, I designed it. But really I was just following the DOT bulletins regarding how a cruise control should operate. Off the top of my head, it stated that the cruise should disengage only under the following circumstances:

Manually disengaged by way of a control (button)
Foot brake applied
Hand brake applied
Gear in Neutral or Reverse
Driver door open
Traction control system, if any, triggered
Speed below 15mph

And although I can't remember exactly... it seems to me there was a paragraph specifically relating to continuance during shifting in a MT.

Again, these are not regulations whatsoever. There are regulations that apply to OEM cruise controls, but of the above list only the first two were mandatory for cars < 2003 and the door thing was added in 2003 and the traction control item in 2008. Again, that's all off the top of my head.

 

IMO, there is confusion between "options" and "Control". (replace the word "ability" above with "option" and it reads better.) In the setup you talk about, the driver would have more options but not more control. An extra step would be needed in order to disengage the Cruise meaning an extra step and less control over how the vehicle reacts. More features do not necessarily equate to more control. Unlike VSA (which many will say limits control of professional or Extremly experienced drivers in skid situations), this is not a safety issue but more of a convenience feature and to me, actually a step back in safety and driver Control.

On to this paragraph. In this scenario, the engine is assuming that it knows what the driver is intending and while it might be correct towards the higher or lower end of the rpm band, there is a good chance it will be wrong when in the middle unless the car learns the driver's shift patterns and this can be problematic with multiple drivers in the same car. Without sensors determining which direction the stick is heading (sensors between gates), I see concerns here. Even with those sensors, would the computer be able to rev match quick enough. The computer can naturally compensate instantaneously but will the flywheel and other components be able to come close to meeting the engagement (without a long delay in the clutch depression - causing a delay in engagement and weird pedal feel.) Personally, i'm a quick shifter so this might not work for me.... as for my brother... not a problem.

I'm trying to think through this logically and I'm seeing too many assumptions and if... questions.

~SB

 

The computer works literally at the speed of light - so you don't have to worry about that. So it introduces practically no delay. The flywheel will react as quickly as it always would - nothing changes. And provided the car follows CANBUS OBD standards (and by regulation, all 2008+ cars sold in the USA do... many between '97 and '07 as well), then yes it is well aware of the position of the gear shifter. It know what gear you're going into almost as soon as you do However, it wouldn't matter. The Fit appears to rev-match anyway judging by this statement from the first page (that got us on to this discussion): so its a moot point. In this case, the cruise doesn't need to do anything special and no guesses have to be made about what gear you're going into or coming from. Your car's computer handles all that implicitely. The only thing the cruise has to do is try to maintain speed - which of course it can't do in the few seconds while the gears are being changed, but that is of little consequence. I assure you... in the system I'm describing, it wouldn't rev in between shifts as you may be imagining. It'd be as smooth as with an automatic... only you have to do the shifting yourself.


We can move onto another topic



I got call from the dealership today and they got my car in! Yay, I guess. I'm really only doing this deal because it might lead to more business with their smart dealer. They are by no means offering me the best price. At the last minute, he tried to tag on a $424 in "fees" that were not previously mentioned. I hate that. I let $25 slide because every dealer charges it (they say its an eco fee for the tires... yet the Honda website mentions the $100 a/c tax but no the tire fee?) but the other $399 for a "documentation" fee. Yeah right... I'm not paying $400 for them to write up my receipt. By the end of the conversation, I had that $399 gone and another $400 knocked off. That's still $400 shy of the deal my closer local Honda dealer would give me... bu they aren't affiliated with a smart dealer that's buying a minimum of 3 cruise units from me

That's the only thing that can kill this deal now. I'm not signing anything until I have the cheque (check) in hand for the cruise controls. So if they're on the up and up with me... I should have my silver Fit LX on Tuesday. And I'll probably have it in pieces by Friday!

- Steven

 

I should clarify that my statement on the Fit "hanging" the throttle is on Upshifts, not downshifts. So it is not rev-matching per-se, it is just a "slow" throttle body valve that doesn't shut instantaneously when you lift off the gas (like it would on a mechanically operated throttle). Since the throttle response is slowed down without a separate throttle controller, doing heel-toe downshifts also has a bit of a delay. Damn economy cars :P

To add to Specboy's comment, The Nissan 370Z has an actual rev match system in their manual transmissions:

 

Got my new Fit... yay!

But man, the day was not without its drama! Holy crap! No kidding... on the way to the dealer to pick it up, I literally got rammed by a jackass with road rage in a bizarre hit and run "accident" (the word implies it was not deliberate... but it was!).

Two lanes up a steep hill in a 90kph zone. I'm going 90kph in the left lane and big trucks are in the right lane are doing 6o to 80. A couple fast cars came up behind me so I temporarily ducked into the slow lane to let them past. A truck was bombing along too... but a good 100' back and I was running out of room before coming up to a slow moving truck so I moved back into the "fast" lane. Its not like I cut the guy off, but he clearly had a problem with a smart car going the speed limit in front of him so he rode my ass like a cheap male prostitute and flashed his highbeams at me repeatedly. For whatever reason, I tried to oblige and I sped up a little... but then one of the big trucks put on his blinker and wanted to change into our lane about 25' up. Sure, I *could* have been a jerk and sped up to not let the big truck in... and that's clearly what bozo behind me wanted... but I'm not a jerk so I let the truck in.

Dumbass then gets furious, goes into the right lane, gets up beside me... and...

OK, at this point you'd expect him to do the reasonable thing for a total jerk-off and zoom ahead of me, whip in and cut me off, and slam on the brakes, right?

No... he does one better. He gets beside me, and literally rams my car from the side!!

I was just dumbfounded. Broad daylight with cars all round. No less than 5 people got his license, myself included.

I'm sure it was a work truck too. It was a heavy duty pickup with the big metal enclosed bed like utility workers use. It was discretely marked but it had some sort of decal on it. So on top of the $400 fine for leaving the scene... his insurance is going up for the $2k in damage to my car plus he'll probably lose his job if its a company truck. The cop said because nobody got a good look at the driver, they can't say for sure who was driving so criminal charges are out... the ticket and insurance hit go to the owner. If it is a company, there's a good chance they'll indicate the driver. If its not, then the HOPE is they try to dispute the ticket. The cop said if he's stupid enough to show, then the court will compell the owner to produce the driver, and once that identity is established... he's got a nice pair of bracelets to wear. If he's smart, he'll play dumb on who the driver is and just take the financial hit.


THEN, to add insult to injury (oh, there were no injuries by the way)... I get to the dealer 1.5 hours later and the car is kind of dirty. Not bad, but enough dirt and bugs that I thought there were rock chips in the paint. But he scratched them off with his thumb and said its just dirt so he'll get it detailed while we do the paperwork. So I sign the papers, pass the cash, go outside... and there it is... a glaring rock chip on the driver door frame. Sigh.

I suppose I can look on the bright side... chance are, I'm going to get that same rock chip anyway sooner rather than later... so its better it happened before it left the lot because now they're responsible for it. I can either get it painted or, at my option, get my second service for free (he told me second service is more money than the first. About $250 True?).


Anyway... crazy day.


Hey, one more thing. I didn't notice it in the test drive, but on the way home I was really rather unimpressed with the road noise! I read through a few threads on here about reducing it with Dynamat (or similar) and a rubberized undercoating. I turned down the dealer-installed undercoating because they wanted $1000 and I can get it for about $20 a can and do it myself. But my question is... does anyone know how much I'll need? How many shaker cans (if spray) or gallons of brush on? I can't get it locally for cheap but I can get it online... so I'd like to order the right amount in one go.

- Steven

 

WOW! Just WOW! Glad to hear you're OK. Don't you have an automatic event recorder built into your fancy cruise control? ;-)

I've heard road noise is high. Honda's high road noise is often mentioned in reviews of all cars, up to and including the Accord.

My cars have been:
Honda - Honda - Wrangler - GMC - Honda - Honda - Honda... The Wrangler was ungodly loud, and the GMC was a base model pickup with no carpet, so it was far from quiet, but noticably moreso than my ex's Echo. I guess it's not something I notice.

Next to an Element that passed 3000 RPM at 60 mph, the Fit sounds pretty quiet to me. I have noticed that Hondas seem louder since they went to cheap-grade suspension components, probably because they transmit more vibration to the unibody (they don't use exclusive front/rear double-wishbone suspension like they did in the 90s - even the Civic CX hatchbacks, which didn't have such niceties as 14" wheels and A/C had the 4 wheel unequal-length A-arms. The last of the great Civics.. but I digress.

Your work with the DBW throttles intrigues me... any way to gain full manual control of the lockup torque converter? I can't help but think the ability to downshift with the paddles to 4th to climb/pass, without unlocking the torque converter, would provide some gain to mileage.

 

Its kind of weird because during our test drive we were specifically listening for road noise and while it wasn't the quietest car we tried... it still seemed like an improvement over our old Suzuki and my smart - both of which were really quite bad. But during the drive home, when I wasn't specifically listening for it, I noticed how loud it sounded. Actually, I'm not even sure if it was road noise or engine noise. It sounded deep and loud during idle and what I referred to as "road noise" was worst at high speed, which is when the engine would be working.

Now for your question... probably... but not at all easy. I imagine Honda wouldn't help by releasing their engine management program And I doubt if anyone has decoded it yet - at least not fully enough to do things like that.

Let me give you a brief explanation of how we did what we did with the smart cruise control: Smart wasn't going to help, so we had to do things from scratch. We "hacked" into the CANBUS data stream so we could see all the data coming from the car's computer on our laptop screen. But at this point, it kinda looks like that scene from the movie Matrix where the strange characters are scrambling down the screen and nothing means anything. Stare at that long enough and you start to see patterns. Literally "shapes" in the numbers. Then you touch the brake... about 1000 times... until you see what changes and how. OK, that's brakes! Then you open the driver's door... about 1000 times... until you see what changes. And so on. For things that are "off or on" or "open or shut" it is relatively easy. For things that aren't so black and white... for example speed... it isn't so easy. (speed was particularly difficult because the car had to be moving while you're staring at the screen!).

Now, when all that was said and done, all we had was knowledge of what the computer was "saying" when it did something. With the cruise, we just had to "listen" to that, and then "talk" back to the computer (to tell it to keep the speed). But nowhere did we have to change what it said. Get the difference? So as hard as all that was, its nowhere near as hard as what you're wondering about. Because for that, we have to change what the computer is doing rather than just "conversing" with it.

Unless there's a way to trick it. Maybe we could invent some box that intercepts some signal and convinces the computer there's no need to unlock the torque converter. Off the top of my head - I have no idea how you'd do that. But say its possible... we're talking probably about a situation where the "box" (whatever it is) would have to sell for $400 to $600 and at least 1000 units to pay back the development costs. That's similar to the cruise control project. Would 1000 Fit drivers pay $400 to $600 for whatever benefit such a product would provide? I guess that depends on how much mileage you'd gain.

- Steven

 

Want to make sure your dealer put in the body plugs...check this thread...
https://www.fitfreak.net/forums/2nd-...ody-plugs.html

 

Thanks! I'll get out there as soon as my wife gets home and check.