They better do whatever is necessary so that I'm not coming in every 5K, regardless of how much it costs them. I was having this issue under the 36k warranty so anything they do should be covered under that. They may not WANT to do a valve adjustment but if that's what fixes it that's what they better do. They can't keep throwing in plugs and giving me back the car can they?

 

Let us know what they say. And don't hesitate to ask to speak to the service manager. He'll want to diagnose the problem and will ask you to pay the diagnosis fee. Go ahead and get them started. When they tell you the results and the cost (hopefully they'll already goodwill the fix) work with the manager to get the cost down. If you're not satisfied just say you're going to check with Honda corporate and get on the phone with them:

American Honda Motor Co., Inc.
Automobile Customer Service
Mail Stop 500-2N-7A
1919 Torrance Boulevard
Torrance, California 90501-2746
Tel: (800) 999-1009

 

Thanks again Steve. Last question. What do you think is the best way to make SURE they repair this properly (valve adjustment) and don't just throw in another plug, run EVAP test, and call it a day? Which is what happened last time.

 

If the repair is the same as last time, I'd contact Honda Customer Service and ask them to arrange to take it to another dealer to diagnose properly. They'll work with you.

 

FYI I didn't read the whole thread and don't know your current mileage but plugs and coils are covered under power train warranty to a certain mileage.

Valve adjust could also be considered a power train warranty item.

Hope they fix it for you.

 

Spark plugs are specifically excluded in the warranty. Coil packs aren't mentioned, the power-train warranty (5 years 60K miles) covers the engine block/head and "internal parts." It does cover the ECM. I think you could make a strong argument that coils are part of the power-train.

Valve adjustments are maintenance so I don't think this would normally be covered. But, you shouldn't have to be doing this at 35K miles (or 40K). I would try to negotiate this to at least reduce the cost.

 

Are you reading this from a manual or you have first hand knowledge ???

Don't always believe only what's on paper.

 

Perhaps you do not understand the possible causes for a P0302 code. That code means that the ECU is not seeing a pulse of power at the appropriate time from cylinder 2. An internal combustion engine needs fuel, compression, air, and spark to get power. If you are missing any or the fuel/air is not in the proper ratio, you will get that error. If there is something wrong with that fuel injector, bad compression, the wiring to the ECU, to the coil pack, to the fuel injector, the ECU itself, you might get that error. It is even possible that some sensor is giving wrong values so that the fuel/air ratio is wrong, but that would normally cause codes in all cylinders. Also possible that there is a bad intake manifold gasket causing unmetered air to enter that cylinder, causing the misfire. Bad valves or valve adjustments could cause that error. Bad piston rings can cause loss of compression.

So how should this be diagnosed? I would start by looking at the codes. Then I would look at the freeze frame data to see if the sensor values looked normal at the exact time the code was set and for the conditions the engine was running at. Then I would look at mode $06 data that would tell me how many misfires there were in each cylinder for the last 10 drive cycles and for the last drive cycle. Then I would start the motor and listen for vacuum leaks or other problems. Then I would pull the plug and read it for lean or rich or other problems and do a compression test on that cylinder. After remediation is made such as replacing coil pack, fuel injector, spark plug, valve adjustments, or repairing vacuum leak, then vehicle should be run at same conditions as freeze frame indicated for fault, and mode $06 data should be read to see if there is still any misfire to make sure it is really repaired. Basically mode $06 shows you immediate data which is much much better than waiting several drive cycles to see if the MIL comes on or not. In this case mode $06 will tell you exactly how many misfires were sensed, not just if they are bad enough for the MIL to light. Mode $06 data is the actual data the ECU uses to determine if the MIL is to be lit or not.

Hopefully, this will help you to ask the dealer what they did, why they did, and how they know they really fixed it. I think that is a better approach than telling them to replace a plug and coil pack that could distract them from the real cause.

 

yeah, that's from the 09 warranty book (plugs). It doesn't say anything about valve adjustment, just "normal maintenance" not being covered.

But yeah, everything is negotiable. If it needed plugs at 35-40K and they are designed to last 100K I'd be on the phone to Honda corporate.

 

dropped her off at 7am today, got a call around 3:30 from my service advisor. I was immediately asked if i would authorize the repair as long as myself and the dealership split the bill. I said "NO WAY. This issue STARTED when the car was under warranty and is still the EXACT same cylinder and issue so i refuse to pay a dime." I was told in order to continue to work on my vehicle today i would either have to authorize to pay for half of the repair or call the service MANAGER tmrw since he was off for the day and my advisor "already called him and bothered him for authorization to cover half". All this time he hasn't even told me what the repair would consist of. Eventually, I found out they are going to do new coil pack and spark plug. I hung up the phone and immediately called Honda corporate explaining my issue, the fact that the car has had loud valve ticking since the first couple thousand miles and that in order to feel comfortable taking the car back from repair they should do a valve adjustment, and replace the spark plug and coil pack from cylinder 2, where the misfire is. Am i being fair? Thoughts!?

 

yes, you're being fair.

The fact they're replacing the coil pack this time indicates they should have done it before, under warranty. Contacting customer service is the best followup.

Have a careful read of hspatz's post above for other possible causes.

If they sound confident the coil pack solves it, you're on record with corporate so if it reoccurs in 5K miles you have a solid case.

 

Problem arises is that if the components are not covered under the powertrain the service manager has to get authorization from his district rep and that's not going to happen on a Saturday for a good will warranty.

If they have the previous history of this happening they should 100% cover it no questions asked.

Corporate will probably push them to do everything under goodwill I would hope.

 

I'm still getting the CEL after the VSA light comes on. Starting in the morning, the CEL is still on from the previous incident (takes a couple of days to clear the codes triggering the CEL). The VSA is cleared every time the engine is restarted. The VSA comes on in the first 100 feet of movement.

In the rare instance that the CEL does clear, the VSA will come on and a split second later the CEL is back on.

Almost seems that a wheel / tire diameter issue (bigger than spec) throws the VSA code because wheel rotation is different than spec. And for whatever reason the CEL comes on to. I'll have to get the codes read.

 

I cannot see how the car can know if the diameter of your wheels has changed, unless you have a different diameter wheel on the front and on the rear. Then the fronts would rotate at a different speed from the rears.

 

Well I have good and bad news. The good news is that the CEL and VSA warning lights are off and it really wouldn't cost much to fix. The bad news is that the dealer got $300 and I ended up fixing it myself.

I had the dealer read the code and it noted #2 cyl misfire ($65 diagnosis fee). They said it was the coil pack ($165) that they didn't have so I had to come back (2 trips). I came back and for an additional fee ($57) they swapped out the bad coil with a new one. Lucky for me I told them that I wanted the old one. They handed it to me while I was paying and out the door I went.

When I got home I looked at it and it was caked with carbon and smelled of gasoline. In 2 days the CEL was back on. I was busy at work but eventually stopped at a local car parts place that reads codes for free. They said misfires in #2 & #3 cyl. #2 cyl had the brand new $165 coil pack - Bad already?

That got me thinking and I took everything apart and it ain't easy getting #3 and #4. It is akin to "noddling" for catfish because you can't see anything that you are doing. Have to have a good imagination to visualize and it is all left-handed (reach in from the passenger-side of the engine - '11 Sport).

Guess what, I could un-thread #2 & #3 cyl spark plugs by hand - no wrench required to start the process. I bought the car new, Mar-2011, and never messed with the coil packs or spark plugs, so I have to believe that they weren't tightened at the factory to the same spec as #1 & #4, which I did need a wrench and some effort to unseat.

I put the original coil back in to the same location where it was "failing". I started the car and it sounds better than ever. Within 2 miles of driving, the CEL went out.

It was a poor factory install of the spark plugs all along. This would have been a pretty easy and cheap fix but apparently the dealer / mechanic wrongly assumed that it couldn't be loose spark plugs but it was.

Remember OBDII can point you in a direction but you have to "think" and test everything yourself, like seeing if the spark plugs are loose.

 

just goes to show even dealer techs are lazy fatasses just like majority of other shops.

Im glad the shop I help out strives to cover all bases, even if the customer only has a minor issue. Every bolt touched or looked at is checked at least once. The shop doesnt like returning customers for repeated issues!!

 

Right now, I have 40,100 miles on it and the gas mileage was horrible this past winter (26 - 28 MPG on many fill-ups). Periodically, I'd get a whiff of gasoline in the cabin right up until yesterday when I tightened those two spark plugs. I'm also running a Tanabe Medallion Touring T70143A and the inside of the exhaust tip would become severely black / spotted within 2 wks. Again, I thought it was just the winter / condensing exhaust gases, etc Maybe that will clear up and require less cleaning - but sure sounds better now.

But not having the CEL and VSA lights on constantly does a lot for one's mental health. Now I can focus on the driving rather than the worrying about this abnormality in operations.

 

2 Week Update - No CEL or VSA. Car still sounds great. Has better acceleration than before (interesting how you don't notice slow degradation). Tailpipe looks better than it would 2 wks after cleaning it before the fix. Seems like a new car performance - wise.

Remember check your plugs if you are getting a CEL and VSA. Might be an easy fix.

 

I can't wait to hear your description of the service manager's reaction when you return the new coil pack and demand a refund, explaining the actual fix.

 

Interesting. I had the same issue on cylinder 2. Turns out the spark plug had almost completely backed out of the head and the hot gases had burned the coli. Threads were apparently not damaged. I have no explanation.