Is anyone else a little wary of direct injection?
I already mentioned this, but I specifically asked a man by the name of Yoshimuri Nakamura who is the 2015 Fit Assistant Project Leader as well as an engineer the concerns voiced from the thread about the issue. The guy helped create this car and casually told me without any PR people breathing down his back that I should not have any concerns about this matter, I believe him. I will not wave forum threads and online dabble into his face and not credit his actual work and experience on the car.
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From: Los Angeles
I already mentioned this, but I specifically asked a man by the name of Yoshimuri Nakamura who is the 2015 Fit Assistant Project Leader as well as an engineer the concerns voiced from the thread about the issue. The guy helped create this car and casually told me without any PR people breathing down his back that I should not have any concerns about this matter, I believe him. I will not wave forum threads and online dabble into his face and not credit his actual work and experience on the car.
That you talked to a Honda engineer is certainly cool. But he didn't happen to mention how this problem would be addressed, did he?
In case it's not clear, I hope you're right about Honda's DI. I love Honda and don't have an interest in buying anything else. But I'd like to know how they're gonna do this.
Honda went to a turbo on the new Civic Type-R. Is that a sign of progress or of caving in? Is Honda pursuing DI not because they have it figured out, but because they are succumbing to market pressure? Just thinkin' out loud here.
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Nope. ITS Faith-based reality.
As previously posted: "Honda introduced their first Earth-dream GDI engine in the 2012 Accord 2.4l 4 cyl and 3.5l 6 cyl. Any mass recalls or lawsuits around on the Accord due to carbon build-up as a result of GDI???? Google it and let us know."
BTW, read the technical article you posted in more detail. Toyota clearly addressed the carbon build-up issue by using DI + PI.
Love is one thing.......looks like others Love and Trust Honda engineering.
As for Turbo and Honda caving in - Civic Type R is close to $35,000 in Europe. Different product altogether which Honda is marketing to attract a specific market who need the HP and are willing to pay for it.
Honda Fit - needs to be economical, practical and affordable.
Thinkin' out loud, nothing wrong with that!!! So am I.
As previously posted: "Honda introduced their first Earth-dream GDI engine in the 2012 Accord 2.4l 4 cyl and 3.5l 6 cyl. Any mass recalls or lawsuits around on the Accord due to carbon build-up as a result of GDI???? Google it and let us know."
BTW, read the technical article you posted in more detail. Toyota clearly addressed the carbon build-up issue by using DI + PI.
As for Turbo and Honda caving in - Civic Type R is close to $35,000 in Europe. Different product altogether which Honda is marketing to attract a specific market who need the HP and are willing to pay for it.
Honda Fit - needs to be economical, practical and affordable.
Thinkin' out loud, nothing wrong with that!!! So am I.
Last edited by ROTTBOY; Apr 13, 2014 at 01:22 PM.
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From: SoCal/Castaic
Well said, then at least state it in conjunction with your original statement rather than as a response to my post.
I grew up with carbs and fuel injection. I believe in them, but as the world changes, the difference between you and me is I'm willing to give technology the "benefit of the doubt" as well as accept all mfg's objective to create a sustaining profit margin, year in and year out. You seem to be stuck in the old world not willing to risk or "try" anything new.
Carbs are tried and tested. Why did most mfg's today go FI? Their fuel pumps emit much greater pressure that those for carbs. If fuel pump pressure is a concern, you should be driving a 1978 carburated Civic.
We live in the USA and its the freest country in the world. Do as you please and stay beholden to the past.
As for me, I'm a risk taker and believe that the youth of our emerging generation are better than us and can solve past problems with the help of continuing technology.
Remember that once, everybody believed the world was "flat"!!!!!
It AIN'T!!
Oh, putting in the statement about DI in diesel vs. gas in trucks, stick to the subject at hand. The GK is GAS and a car (sub-compact, at that) not a truck!!!!!!! We're in the USA not Europe.
BTW, I ride bikes too (only Japanese sportbikes-and track them too). They are the ultimate "pocket rockets". Their technology has put them at the forefront of everyone. The day they go DI, I'll still be buying them!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
To continue on bikes, in sandy desert situations, as you mentioned, the winner of the 2013 and 2014 Paris-Dakar rally was a fuel injected water-cooled KTM. FYI, they plan to enter a DI version for 2015. So I guess your air-cooled argument is a mis-representation of factual reality.
In the meantime, sit back and watch me as I take delivery of a GK LX in June/July. The GD's/GE's are great and no one is telling you to change yours. But for god's sake don't flush the GKs (and it's new technology) down the toilet without having even owned one, much more, driven one.
I grew up with carbs and fuel injection. I believe in them, but as the world changes, the difference between you and me is I'm willing to give technology the "benefit of the doubt" as well as accept all mfg's objective to create a sustaining profit margin, year in and year out. You seem to be stuck in the old world not willing to risk or "try" anything new.
Carbs are tried and tested. Why did most mfg's today go FI? Their fuel pumps emit much greater pressure that those for carbs. If fuel pump pressure is a concern, you should be driving a 1978 carburated Civic.
We live in the USA and its the freest country in the world. Do as you please and stay beholden to the past.
As for me, I'm a risk taker and believe that the youth of our emerging generation are better than us and can solve past problems with the help of continuing technology.
Remember that once, everybody believed the world was "flat"!!!!!
It AIN'T!!
Oh, putting in the statement about DI in diesel vs. gas in trucks, stick to the subject at hand. The GK is GAS and a car (sub-compact, at that) not a truck!!!!!!! We're in the USA not Europe.
BTW, I ride bikes too (only Japanese sportbikes-and track them too). They are the ultimate "pocket rockets". Their technology has put them at the forefront of everyone. The day they go DI, I'll still be buying them!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
To continue on bikes, in sandy desert situations, as you mentioned, the winner of the 2013 and 2014 Paris-Dakar rally was a fuel injected water-cooled KTM. FYI, they plan to enter a DI version for 2015. So I guess your air-cooled argument is a mis-representation of factual reality.
In the meantime, sit back and watch me as I take delivery of a GK LX in June/July. The GD's/GE's are great and no one is telling you to change yours. But for god's sake don't flush the GKs (and it's new technology) down the toilet without having even owned one, much more, driven one.
You made personal arguments about your preference of modern technology (such as in motorcycling) and direct injection, and again, good for you. But keep in mind, many people WILL chose to own carburated and air cooled motorcycles as their first choice. Self supported round the world rides are not like Dakar, where there is nearly unlimited funding and support. So many round the world riders chose bikes like Honda XR650 L or KLR 650, both of which are air cooled and carburated. Many new motorcycles sold today are carburated and air cooled. What does that tell you?
As far as the trucks, you've missed the point. Are you aware of urine based fluid that neutralizes diesel exhaust (DEF - diesel exhaust fluid). This technology is government mondated. Meaning that all new trucks have to be equipped with it. It's an additional cost in terms of maintenance and repair. It adds complexity and reduces reliability. Many truckers suffer from expensive repairs with exhaust getting plugged by carbon deposits resulting in loss of power and requiring expensive repairs. The cost of DEF itself is very significant. Given the choice, many truck companies would chose to not use this "technology" to save the money.
The analogy between DI and DEF technology is that both are new, and both add cost and reduce reliability. Just as DEF is mandated, but not just preferred, the DI might be more a result of changing environmental standards and is a COMPROMISE between environment mandate and simplicity (reliability) associated with proven FI technology. I hope this point makes sense to you.
Now, how free the USA as a country is, I won't even go there.
Let's indeed stay on the subject at hand.
Last edited by john21031; Apr 13, 2014 at 03:48 PM.
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Joined: Feb 2014
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From: Dunedin, Florida
I to am concerned about DI issues, and have searched for days thus far on the Honda Accord and if anyone has complained as of yet, though its still early, I have not come across any, and some Accords do have over 10,000/20,000 or more on the OD and one would think one complaint would be written on one of the many honda forums, but I cannot find one.
I just wish Honda would release a statement regarding this question (Not hard to do) and give those that have doubts a peace of mind, but thus far I haven't seen one yet. I have read some sites on Top Tier Gas, and I for one will be using Shell on a regular basis. My only concern is that I do not drive much at all, and worry about that as well on my engine.
Wait and see at this time.
I just wish Honda would release a statement regarding this question (Not hard to do) and give those that have doubts a peace of mind, but thus far I haven't seen one yet. I have read some sites on Top Tier Gas, and I for one will be using Shell on a regular basis. My only concern is that I do not drive much at all, and worry about that as well on my engine.
Wait and see at this time.
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Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 1,116
From: Hawaii: relocated to Western Canada Sept, 2015
...Many truckers suffer from expensive repairs with exhaust getting plugged by carbon deposits resulting in loss of power and requiring expensive repairs.
The analogy between DI and DEF technology is that both are new, and both add cost and reduce reliability. ....the DI might be more a result of changing environmental standards and is a COMPROMISE between environment mandate and simplicity (reliability) associated with proven FI technology.
....................I hope this point makes sense to you.
.....how free the USA as a country is, I won't even go there. .....
The analogy between DI and DEF technology is that both are new, and both add cost and reduce reliability. ....the DI might be more a result of changing environmental standards and is a COMPROMISE between environment mandate and simplicity (reliability) associated with proven FI technology.
....................I hope this point makes sense to you.
.....how free the USA as a country is, I won't even go there.
.....When you state the "DI might be more a result......." Why use the word "might". All I look for is substantiated proof on something CURRENT (post 2012). Making a point with no specific factual proof is more a emotional response, therefore no sense for now.
Free in the USA.... only mentioned that to signify that you and I are both able to say what we think. Debate for me is not only healthy, but I learn a lot from all the FF's on this forum, you included, and its all appreciated. That said, doesn't mean that we have to agree with each other rather, I, for one am always willing to listen and learn!!!!!
I just don't think we should start pointing fingers and making worse case scenarios when the car isn't even available yet. I can see that it COULD be an issue, but we certainly have no grounds to start bashing on the technology and refuse the car for having it. We might as well ask for no VTEC and take out the 6 speed manual since the 5 speed worked well enough, or even a 4-speed manual, who knows.
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From: Honolulu, Hi
It occurred to me that as more cars move to DI the problem might become a non-issue as it's the same for everyone. Maybe de-carborizing the valves might become a routine maintenance done at 30K (or whatever is suitable). Could it end up being like a timing belt where people just accept the inconvenience?
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From: Hawaii: relocated to Western Canada Sept, 2015
Have you noticed in the past decade, lotsa JDM's have gone back to timing chains????? Their reactions may be slow but at least it ain't stagnant.
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This is true, but it's not as if having or not having a timing belt affected sales. My thought is that DI could be the same, especially if everyone is 'forced' to follow suit.
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From: Hawaii: relocated to Western Canada Sept, 2015
Darn it, in my case, its called full MSRP!!!
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From: Guam
Oh please I'm sorry I couldn't help it.. what I'm getting at is there doesn't seem to be reasoning with anybody. For me to win, you HAVE to lose. For me to be right, you HAVE to be wrong is more the argument you seem to be making.
We're here to enjoy and learn about our common love for the Fit. If you know something we don't.. give us some hard numbers or personal experience... not just something you "read on the internet". At least Jason gave us his experience and some of you shooting him down for telling us... shame on you! It's like shooting the messenger.
A lot of the mis-"information" you see on the internet, especially about issues about all kinds of things are many times a few occurrences that sites pick up and throw out into the internet like so much confetti. I'm in IT and I can't tell you how many times a so called widespread problem that was posted on a forum was actually one or two posts that other sites copied and put on their forums to up the postings and readership and hits. Not to say there was nothing wrong, just that the issue was less widespread and would probably lead a troubleshooter in the wrong direction.
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Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,058
From: SoCal/Castaic
As free as the NRA card toting redneck that carries gun(s) into the children's playground just because it's his "god" given right too? Small g intended... cause if that's what your god says you can do...
Oh please I'm sorry I couldn't help it.. what I'm getting at is there doesn't seem to be reasoning with anybody. For me to win, you HAVE to lose. For me to be right, you HAVE to be wrong is more the argument you seem to be making.
We're here to enjoy and learn about our common love for the Fit. If you know something we don't.. give us some hard numbers or personal experience... not just something you "read on the internet". At least Jason gave us his experience and some of you shooting him down for telling us... shame on you! It's like shooting the messenger.
A lot of the mis-"information" you see on the internet, especially about issues about all kinds of things are many times a few occurrences that sites pick up and throw out into the internet like so much confetti. I'm in IT and I can't tell you how many times a so called widespread problem that was posted on a forum was actually one or two posts that other sites copied and put on their forums to up the postings and readership and hits. Not to say there was nothing wrong, just that the issue was less widespread and would probably lead a troubleshooter in the wrong direction.
Oh please I'm sorry I couldn't help it.. what I'm getting at is there doesn't seem to be reasoning with anybody. For me to win, you HAVE to lose. For me to be right, you HAVE to be wrong is more the argument you seem to be making.
We're here to enjoy and learn about our common love for the Fit. If you know something we don't.. give us some hard numbers or personal experience... not just something you "read on the internet". At least Jason gave us his experience and some of you shooting him down for telling us... shame on you! It's like shooting the messenger.
A lot of the mis-"information" you see on the internet, especially about issues about all kinds of things are many times a few occurrences that sites pick up and throw out into the internet like so much confetti. I'm in IT and I can't tell you how many times a so called widespread problem that was posted on a forum was actually one or two posts that other sites copied and put on their forums to up the postings and readership and hits. Not to say there was nothing wrong, just that the issue was less widespread and would probably lead a troubleshooter in the wrong direction.
If you want to reason with things that way, we should all just walk instead of driving cars, then we won't have to worry about filling gas, and people will not have to get all crazy over digging for oil anymore and the environment will be saved. You're going way too far to try and prove a point that doesn't even have a solid base to begin with. I am all for old school technology and trinkets and architecture and music, but things take their course and it's useless to fight it with every step. I'm sure the first automobile was more of a hassle than an improvement over a horse drawn carriage, but thank goodness they continued working on it and took us to what it is today.
Maybe further developments of the DI system will eventually lead us to even newer technologies OR AT THE VERY LEAST improvements to the Direct Injection system that will make it rock solid. But to plead car makers to simply give up on the system and just continue making old style engines because "it works"? Okay then lets just stay in the era with huge Inline-8s that can only yield 100hp. (Not sure if that's a real fact, just making junk up to make a point) And lets forget about developing stronger and safer chassis or using sound deadening, it's just useless weight.
If you want to fight the cause, just continue driving your 2nd Gen Fit. But please be aware that there could be hundreds and thousands who will come see your posts, and it will cloud their decision making on the new Fit. I'm not saying you're wrong and I'm right, but you sound 100% sure of your opinions on a car that is not even available to buy yet on a very touchy subject, and that's just not right.
Maybe further developments of the DI system will eventually lead us to even newer technologies OR AT THE VERY LEAST improvements to the Direct Injection system that will make it rock solid. But to plead car makers to simply give up on the system and just continue making old style engines because "it works"? Okay then lets just stay in the era with huge Inline-8s that can only yield 100hp. (Not sure if that's a real fact, just making junk up to make a point) And lets forget about developing stronger and safer chassis or using sound deadening, it's just useless weight.
If you want to fight the cause, just continue driving your 2nd Gen Fit. But please be aware that there could be hundreds and thousands who will come see your posts, and it will cloud their decision making on the new Fit. I'm not saying you're wrong and I'm right, but you sound 100% sure of your opinions on a car that is not even available to buy yet on a very touchy subject, and that's just not right.
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Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 724
From: usa
There are used oil analysis at BobIsTheOilGuy of vehicles with D.I.. Some were laced with fuel and others not . Seems like those that drove in city had more fuel dilution . These were of Hondas and others . Here's one of a '14 Accord with fuel in the oil . Go here for details , 2014 Honda Accord Factory Fill, 5034 miles | Used Oil Analysis - Gasoline | Bob Is The Oil Guy and here for other U.O.A.s , Used Oil Analysis - Gasoline | Bob Is The Oil Guy .
I'd just like to see a statement or technical paper released from Honda stating how they got around the issue.
Toyota added extra injectors. Ok, I see that would work. I know how much R&D Toyota puts into their cars straight from employees in R&D. It's a lot.
I certainly hope Honda found the magic bullet that doesn't require such additions, i'd just like to see what it was rather than "Don't worry about it we got this." I do embrace new technology, i'd just like an explanation, and I think that's deserved. Maybe Honda is waiting for the patents to get filed lol
Toyota added extra injectors. Ok, I see that would work. I know how much R&D Toyota puts into their cars straight from employees in R&D. It's a lot.
I certainly hope Honda found the magic bullet that doesn't require such additions, i'd just like to see what it was rather than "Don't worry about it we got this." I do embrace new technology, i'd just like an explanation, and I think that's deserved. Maybe Honda is waiting for the patents to get filed lol
New Member
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 9
From: san diego
i don't see what the big deal is about DI. If the intake valves need a bit more cleaning than usual just add a seafoam treatment every third oil change. Done. I'll take the advantages of DI any day over PI even at the expense of an added maintenance step. I love doing maintenance on my cars and this is not a deal breaker at all.
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Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 427
From: Kihei, Maui, Hawaii
i don't see what the big deal is about DI. If the intake valves need a bit more cleaning than usual just add a seafoam treatment every third oil change. Done. I'll take the advantages of DI any day over PI even at the expense of an added maintenance step. I love doing maintenance on my cars and this is not a deal breaker at all.
However, for me all this is fear is laid to rest by a 5 year 60,000 Mile warranty that is provided by Honda. If they did not think it would be reliable, they would not take on the liability of the warranty.
New Member
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 9
From: san diego
Here is what you are not understanding, in a direct injection engine, the sea foam that you are adding to the fuel does not go past the intake valves, since it is injected directly into the cylinder. And carbon deposits can build up on intake valves as a result of crankcase recirculating gasses. I guess the other issue. Is that because of the very fine atomization of fuel from the DI, the washing effect, of wet gasoline is not there. Whether the sea foam atomizing similarly and loses its ability to work is also a question.
However, for me all this is fear is laid to rest by a 5 year 60,000 Mile warranty that is provided by Honda. If they did not think it would be reliable, they would not take on the liability of the warranty.
However, for me all this is fear is laid to rest by a 5 year 60,000 Mile warranty that is provided by Honda. If they did not think it would be reliable, they would not take on the liability of the warranty.
