This is the first car I have owned that had this kind of head unit. I am assuming that they will provide upgrades to the software to improve bugs?

I have found a couple sequences in the interface that are obviously bugs and would require a patch. Being a developer, and how with every piece of electronics today usually has the ability to upgrade firmware/software updates.

Am I right in thinking that this is something that will happen? Do they notify customers of updates? Is this something Honda usually posts online and we just download it to a thumb drive?

 

I would agree with your assessment. Since you are a developer, how feasible would it be to build in a new sequence or "backdoor" to a few "features" that are not exactly useful? If you read through some of the threads, it would be nice to mirror ones smartphone via HDMI port and not have it disabled once you start moving or shift into drive.


Not being a developer I don't know how difficult such a task would be. Many forum members would be very appreciative if someone were to accomplish these "tweaks" that Honda is not likely to "fix"

 

It really wouldn't be possible, I am assuming it is using HDCP encryption which is a major feature/selling point of HDMI.

I purchased the Navi app and realized that it passes the encryption from the dongle to the head unit. I think it is layed out like this:

Head Unit has software checking for a HDCP handshake to happen from the Apps specific certificate. Meaning you would have to modify the head unit and not the phone in this situation. If you can get the cert from the app, you would need to create a new app that would pass another app through the cert process. This wouldn't be hard, but you would need the root cert AND you would need to be allowed from Apple to distribute it on the app store. Which I doubt because Honda doesn't want you to have the root cert.

There is a hardware component to this, when you engage from park to drive it must flip a mode in the headunit, but then the Head Unit needs to work the logic, *In Drive* > *Enable Cert Encryption* | *In Park* > *Basic HDCP Encription*

So that being said, you would need to modify the head units software, OR get the iphones app root certificate and build a new app. You WONT be able to modify the current honda app.

This would require a lot of reverse engineering, I think the problem in getting this done is the cost. Not a lot of people have the kind of money to buy head units/fits to potentially damage in the name of reverse engineering this.

 

So you think that the "unlock" function is occurring over the HDCP link? I suspected it was via the USB port and that the NAV app would simply send a USB frame to the Head unit to unlock the display when the NAV app was activated??? This would seem to have a higher chance of getting hacked in the future. Since the display does Mirror the phone while in PARK I did not suspect the HDCP link (HDMI interface) to have any role in the locking or unlocking of the display.

 

Do I think the unlock is occurring over the HDCP link? Partially, it does have the ability to pass certs back and forth from the iphone to the head unit. So it is very much possible. But I also think the USB is for input, as you can touch the head unit screen and it will register on the actual iphone app.

But like I said, inherently everything that has HDMI certification has a HDCP cert that allows it to be displayed, that is just in general with any TV or HDMI device. But there is additional protocols that will allow authentication per action.

But yeah this would require more looking into.

 

I really dislike the ability to "patch" software because it causes manufacturers to release buggy products because they can fix them "real soon". These days, everything we buy, from phones to cars to computers causes us to unwittingly become unpaid beta testers.

If car manufacturers are going to rely on software they should be required to put the code in ROM, not EEPROM. That way the code is permanent, can't be hacked, and it requires the manufacturers to replace hardware if they screw up. Doing this won't affect the owners because the dealers want a car all day just to flash the update anyway. The manufacturers might be a bit more careful if it cost them a bit more to fix their mistakes.

 

The flaw in your logic is that if manufacturers had to replace hardware to fix/update something instead of a firmware flash they simply wouldn't bother doing so. Never ever. It's worth remembering that the only mandatory recall updates are for safety issues. Everything else is pretty much at the manufacturers discretion where money talks. Your suggestion of a hardware fix would be especially expensive and would pretty much guarantee car makers wouldn't bother.

 

Either that, or it would cause them to do better product testing before they released it. Chronic problems are bad for business.

 

This seems the most logical explanation. I think USB is used only for power. I guess the root cert is the root cert for the Honda head unit? And this would be a unique hardware id?

I wonder what to make of the fact that the system does rely on Bluetooth to a high degree as well.

What do you make of the fact that Hondalink is disabled by iOS notifications and banners? It seems to me to imply that the Hondalink apps cannot operate at a level they would like within the specs of iOS. iOS has to retain certain controls--required by apple.

So, if I understand you correctly, an app which would allow hdmi passthrough wd require a hardware id from the individual head unit on each car? I suspect this is somehow linked to the VIN number. It would interesting to find out whether the required certificate is unique to each headunit OR is created by some encryption of the VIN number. Either way this information might be difficult to obtain since the relationship wd either be arbitrary, or extremely complex. I can't remember whether you have to put in the VIN number to use Hondalink apps. I don't think so. But perhaps the Hondalink apps have the ability to query the headunit hardware then calculate the encryption key, or whether they have the ability to query the system directly for the encryption key? It cd be determined by disassembling the code of the Hondalink app launcher or NAV app perhaps?

Maybe CarPlay will eventually make this a moot point.

Inquiring minds want to know.

 

Not really. All companies release products which have bugs and then they issue patches after the fact. If you don't get your product out the door on time you're not going to stay in business. Microsoft releases Windows versions with lots of (mostly minor) bugs and then spends years issuing fixes. Apple does the same with their iPhone and the like. As long as the problems are minor and don't affect too many customers their business will not be affected. You can sit on a product for another year trying to make it perfect but there's not much point - your customers will have flocked to your competitors and bought their imperfect products and your business is gone.

 

Yes, rushed-out crap is now normal. It's our own fault because we put up with it initially and manufacturers took advantage.

 

I attended a Honda get-acquainted event at my local Honda dealership. I asked about software/firmware updates, how they were done and how often they were done. One of the salesmen told me that software in the Honda Fit (and other Hondas) was updated through a satellite link. He said the car received a satellite software update from time to time and then installed it late at night when the car was parked in the garage. Sounds wonderful, but improbable. Has anyone heard of this sort of thing? I suppose it would be possible to update software remotely if the car had a phone built in, as some GM models do, but I don't see how Honda could use a satellite downlink in the way the salesman described. Perhaps there was a grain of truth in what he said, but I am quite skeptical.

 

That's a load of horse manure. The only satellite receiver in the Fit is the GPS chipset and the DoD isn't in the software patch delivery business. It's bad enough that salesmen lie to customers, but telling such tall tales is beyond the pale.

 

Software updates via satellite link? Highly unlikely given the cost and complexity involved.

GPS maps historically always have been DVD-ROM or now using USB flash drive to provide the updates at a cost. Software updates will be the same way at the dealership as they have to make sure the updates took and working properly if it effects the safety of the driver.

Sounds like a great idea but not anytime soon. Hell, Tesla provide software updates via WiFi connection and updates itself at night. They spend alot of time testing the updates before it gets released to the public.

 

GeorgeL and DArkk-
Thanks for affirming my suspicions. I have tried to imagine how you could use the satellite link to download firmware updates, and I could not see how it could be done. I had forgotten that the DoD really controlled the data stream to GPSes. Hah, no chance anyone is going to piggyback on that! Plus, the idea that Honda would update software remotely and trust that the update would install and function correctly is silly. I do wonder how much GM is doing with their cellphone-based system, OnStar. I had OnStar in a vehicle once and felt as if Big Brother was watching over my shoulder.
The other thing this salesman said was that Honda ECMs monitor driving behavior and adjust the fuel system settings at about the 8,000 mile mark to improve fuel consumption performance. He claimed that owners should see an increase in fuel economy when this adjustment happens. Now, there is no technical problem with the ECM doing this, so I would not have been suspicious of the claim--if he had not also said that Honda updated firmware via satellite link. But I now doubt this second claim as well.
Honda corporate cannot control absolutely what salespeople say, of course. But I hope that the other service and sales personnel at my dealership will take this guy aside and straighten him out. He also gave some really strange advice about oil changes. He was very confident in all he said, often a sign of high grade b. s.

 

Wow..he actually said all those things? I know some car salespeople will fib here and there on occasion but this guy fibbed on everything. Pays to do research beforehand.

 

The amazing thing is that he made all those claims in front of five of his fellow sales and service co-workers. They remained silent through the whole thing, in retrospect, tight lipped. I'm thinking he might have gotten some feedback from them after the event. I like the dealership. It's quite possible he was an outlier (outliar?).

 

We were told the same thing, I was glad I was wearing boots but I forgot my shovel. Don't buy it one bit, think its basically a honda lie

 

That's because Tesla doesn't have a bloated dealer network to support by forcing owners to pay a C-note for plugging in a flash drive.

 

Two questions;

Are we talking about a firmware update, or a software upgrade.

Two, how does my Sony TV do it, while the Honda Fit can't?