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Warning: 2016 Honda Fit Catalytic Converter Failure

  #21  
Old 02-25-2018, 06:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Cichlid_visuals View Post
Stop putting 87 octane in an 11.5 to 1 compression ratio engine, especially if it isnt up to par on detergency. If you insist on putting 87, make sure its chevron, shell, 76, or mobil. Fuck everything else, these cars are so economical you cant afford NOT to use quality gas.

Early (1/15) mexican lx 6mt, 91 chevron almost exclusively, 44k HARD miles (lots of redline, lots of rev match/heeltoe downshifts). Not a single part replaced except air filter and headlight bulbs. Idemitsu zeppro 0w20 with moly, and hamp small filters exclusively. I average 36.3 mpg per tank of mixed freeway/mountain roads, i dont drive conservatively.


Maybe im just lucky, or maybe quality gasoline and strict maintenance really make a difference in these apparently highly sensitive engines.

I am noticing a HUGE correlation between people who use crap gas, and injector failure on these cars. These are not your typical injectors, they operate at extremely high pressures (500 psi at the fuel rail) and have multiple tiny ports for high atomization (essential for direct injection). Shit gas will clog these ports, and/or make the injector stick open in a hurry.
yea.... i only get gas from esso because i have a business card with them.

Shit still broke at low mileage, im still leaning towards direct injection issue.
 
  #22  
Old 02-25-2018, 10:11 PM
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Originally Posted by justanewbie View Post
yea.... i only get gas from esso because i have a business card with them.

Shit still broke at low mileage, im still leaning towards direct injection issue.
I agree, but would also recommend giving up that business card excuse. Get one form a more reputable fuel station.
 
  #23  
Old 02-25-2018, 10:14 PM
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Originally Posted by GAFIT View Post
I agree, but would also recommend giving up that business card excuse. Get one form a more reputable fuel station.
Might be kinda tough to do that.....ESSO is on the Top Tier Gas list.

Licensed Brands | Top Tier Gas
 
  #24  
Old 02-25-2018, 10:18 PM
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Originally Posted by ezone View Post
Might be kinda tough to do that.....ESSO is on the Top Tier Gas list.

Licensed Brands | Top Tier Gas
Interesting. is it good fuel?

I feel sorry for the Cali folks stuck with downright sh1tty fuel. In most of the country, we can get decent fuel from Shell.

The tuner I use has told me about the difficulties of tuning in 91 octane states. He has to dial back his tunes to an unbelievable level just to make the car happy. Beyond what just 2 octane levels would dictate. The fuel quality is just not near as good.
 
  #25  
Old 02-25-2018, 10:29 PM
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feel sorry for us for real reasons. There are plenty to choose from. Gas quality is not one of them. Plenty of 76, Costco and Shell stations to be found here.
 
  #26  
Old 02-25-2018, 10:34 PM
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Esso is owned by Imperial Oil and ExxonMobil in Canada, Imperial Oil being the second largest integrated oil company in this country, with oil wells, refineries and gas stations. And yes as ezone mentioned it has a top tier gas rating. It's good gas although I never buy it myself because their price tends to always be on the high end of things in my area.
 
  #27  
Old 02-25-2018, 10:36 PM
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Originally Posted by BurntZ View Post
feel sorry for us for real reasons. There are plenty to choose from. Gas quality is not one of them. Plenty of 76, Costco and Shell stations to be found here.
But not 93 octane from what I understand?

Not a big deal for a stock Fit, but hard if you own a performance vehicle.
 
  #28  
Old 02-25-2018, 10:38 PM
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Originally Posted by justanewbie View Post
yea.... i only get gas from esso because i have a business card with them.

Shit still broke at low mileage, im still leaning towards direct injection issue.

Esso is shit gas. Just because its on the top tier list it doesnt mean its good gas, like costco gas, yea its top tier, but it isnt chevron or shell by a longshot. Also you dont state what octane you use, thats more important here if you paid any real attention to my post.
 
  #29  
Old 02-25-2018, 10:41 PM
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Originally Posted by ezone View Post
Might be kinda tough to do that.....ESSO is on the Top Tier Gas list.

Licensed Brands | Top Tier Gas
Originally Posted by GAFIT View Post
Interesting. is it good fuel?
Browse the rest of that site and read about what Top Tier Gas is and why the standard was created



TOP TIERô Detergent Gasoline is the premier standard for gasoline performance. Nine of the world's top automakers, BMW, General Motors, Fiat Chrysler Automobiles, Ford, Honda, Toyota, Volkswagen, Mercedes-Benz and Audi recognize that the current EPA minimum detergent requirements do not go far enough to ensure optimal engine performance.
 
  #30  
Old 02-25-2018, 11:11 PM
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Originally Posted by GAFIT View Post
Probably all Direct Injection related. Compounded if not using Top Tier fuel as recommended in the manual.

Here's how it goes...

Carbon deposits build up on backside of valves which restricts air flow. Car runs rich. Plugs foul and catalytic converter fails. If the fuel is especially bad or the car isn't run hard enough, the carbon fouling can even extend into the combustion chamber and foul the plugs or cause injector failure.

Hence, the dealer seeing more catalytic converter failures. I'm sure it all began with 2015 models due to DI. Cars that aren't run hard, are used for short trips, or get low quality fuel will fail faster than others.
Originally Posted by GAFIT View Post
I agree about the injectors, but there have been carbon build up issues as well. Here's just one example, but we've seen a few on these boards...

https://www.fitfreak.net/forums/3rd-...-too-lean.html

Regardless of if it's injectors and/or carbon build up, I see it as a DI problem. It's the DI type injectors that are failing.
Congrats, you just hit the nail on the head.

I would highly recommend to anyone running a GK5 or any other DI Honda to run top tier fuel as well as occasionally run a good fuel system cleaner and give the car a good spirited drive to help clear up or prevent carbon from building up. At minimum add in some fuel system cleaner every 10 to 15k just to be safe.
 
  #31  
Old 02-26-2018, 12:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Cichlid_visuals View Post
Esso is shit gas. Just because its on the top tier list it doesnt mean its good gas,
Please provide proof to back this up (like something other than your opinion).

Originally Posted by Cichlid_visuals View Post
...... it isnt chevron or shell by a longshot.
Please provide proof that Chevron and Shell provide better gas than other major brand name companies (like something other than your opinion).

Originally Posted by Cichlid_visuals View Post
Also you dont state what octane you use, thats more important here if you paid any real attention to my post.
So you're saying that octane rating is the indicator of gas quality. So if the worst oil company in the world produces the worst gas in the world but as long as it's the highest octane rating in the world then it must really be the best gas in the world and that's the stuff you'd be using???

Myself I just put in Honda's recommended 87 octane rating from any top tier gas company. That's what Honda recommends and I assume that people who designed this engine know what's best for it. Does that guarantee that I won't have a problem some day? No.

Incidentally since you're throwing around your rather strong opinions on what gas everyone should or should not be using perhaps you could tell us about your engineering degrees, your experience working for a car company in engine design and other relevant stuff. Just saying that you drive a car isn't really worth much.
 
  #32  
Old 02-26-2018, 01:16 AM
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Originally Posted by woof View Post
Please provide proof to back this up (like something other than your opinion).



Please provide proof that Chevron and Shell provide better gas than other major brand name companies (like something other than your opinion).



So you're saying that octane rating is the indicator of gas quality. So if the worst oil company in the world produces the worst gas in the world but as long as it's the highest octane rating in the world then it must really be the best gas in the world and that's the stuff you'd be using???

Myself I just put in Honda's recommended 87 octane rating from any top tier gas company. That's what Honda recommends and I assume that people who designed this engine know what's best for it. Does that guarantee that I won't have a problem some day? No.

Incidentally since you're throwing around your rather strong opinions on what gas everyone should or should not be using perhaps you could tell us about your engineering degrees, your experience working for a car company in engine design and other relevant stuff. Just saying that you drive a car isn't really worth much.
5+ years experience as an ase certified honda employed dealer technician at concord honda, california from 09-14. I was one of the first northern California techs to be able learn directly from honda of america engineering about the gk5 in early 2014 before i left, to give us a heads up on what to expect with the new platform before customers started actually putting real miles on them, and a shitload of critical insight on the current 1.5 litre L series earthdreams engine line up (L15b1, L15b7) being offered in USA. I have a very high level of general mechanical engineering comprehension and knoweledge.

Furthermore, go ahead print out chemical safety data sheets on both chevron and esso gasoline, its not hard to see that chevrons classic techron formulation has similar chemical properties, but with much HIGHER ppm in common detergency additives (such as those found in techron) so that tells me at a glance wich gas i consider higher quality, its common sense. Oh, and my 3+ years at Richmond california chevron refinery might give me a little bias towards the product, as i know exactly what goes into it.

And no, i never stated that octane rating alone determines fuel quality, thats quite an ignorant statement, but its still VERY pertinent to fuel QUALITY because higher octane "premium" fuels contain much better additives, found in higher concentration. You dont need an engineering degree to have common biochemical knowledge dude 😑, may i ask what engineering degree YOU have to be so judgemental of my answers?

Also you are incorrect that honda recommends 87 octane for the l15b1, they actually reccomend no LOWER than top tier 87 octane, so you have been doing the bare minimum for your 11.5 to 1 compression, direct injected, dohc ivtec powerplant. 👏👏👏 congrats!


Honda of america purposely chose to reccomend no LOWER than 87 octane on the fit, yet acura RECCOMENDS premium gasoline for the acura ILX hybrid with a, you guessed it, normally aspirated L15 engine. Its marketing dude, u don't want to scare potential buyers of your cheapest car (fit), by saying they recommend premium gas in it. So they word it carefully by saying they reccomend no LOWER than 87, hinting that higher octane is better, but, not absolutely necessary if you are a tightwad when it comes to fuel (most fit buyers). Acura customers on the other hand, want to feel as if they are buying something more upscale, so they "reccomend" premium fuel to further enforce that, even though the l15 in the ilx hybrid has substantially LOWER compression and power than the gk5 fits superior dohc L15b1.


Credentials related to my comments in this thread (since apparently were keeping track here on fit freaks) :

High school graduate (2004)

ASE certified technician (A1,A2,A3,A4)

former honda of america employee/5+ years

Current chevron employee/3+years
 

Last edited by Cichlid_visuals; 02-26-2018 at 03:53 AM.
  #33  
Old 02-26-2018, 01:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Cichlid_visuals View Post
Stop putting 87 octane in an 11.5 to 1 compression ratio engine, especially if it isnt up to par on detergency. If you insist on putting 87, make sure its chevron, shell, 76, or mobil. Fuck everything else, these cars are so economical you cant afford NOT to use quality gas.

Early (1/15) mexican lx 6mt, 91 chevron almost exclusively, 44k HARD miles (lots of redline, lots of rev match/heeltoe downshifts). Not a single part replaced except air filter and headlight bulbs. Idemitsu zeppro 0w20 with moly, and hamp small filters exclusively. I average 36.3 mpg per tank of mixed freeway/mountain roads, i dont drive conservatively.


Maybe im just lucky, or maybe quality gasoline and strict maintenance really make a difference in these apparently highly sensitive engines.

I am noticing a HUGE correlation between people who use crap gas, and injector failure on these cars. These are not your typical injectors, they operate at extremely high pressures (500 psi at the fuel rail) and have multiple tiny ports for high atomization (essential for direct injection). Shit gas will clog these ports, and/or make the injector stick open in a hurry.
Can we meet sometime? Says you're in the bay area. Im in the east bay. How about we meet on Pinehurst rd. =)
 
  #34  
Old 02-26-2018, 02:28 AM
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Originally Posted by TougeMonster_GK5 View Post
Can we meet sometime? Says you're in the bay area. Im in the east bay. How about we meet on Pinehurst rd. =)
Hell yea brotha! Pinehurst is a classic touge!! Go easy on me with my stock suspension through those twisties 😎 might not hold a line as sharply but it can eat up bumps and gaps pretty good!
 

Last edited by Cichlid_visuals; 02-26-2018 at 02:31 AM.
  #35  
Old 02-26-2018, 08:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Cichlid_visuals View Post
but it isnt chevron or shell by a longshot.
To back up Cichlid (not that he needs support)...

I work with two different tuners on a different vehicle. Neither are related except that they tune multiple different platforms using HP Tuners and SCT.

Both of my tuners told me to only run Shell V-Power or Chevron if Shell isn't available. They then lump BP, Amoco, Exxon, Mobil, Texaco into the next category. Others, including those on the top tier list, they say are not to be trusted because they don't get good consistent dyno results.

I realize that many of you won't give a darn and will keep putting cheap fuel into your car. That's your prerogative.
 
  #36  
Old 02-26-2018, 09:23 AM
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Just an looking for an opinion.

I primarily run Chevron fuel. But also mostly 87 octane (regular). At least once in between Oil Changes I run a treatment of Techron through my system.
Mostly just for kicks, once in while, not very often, I'll fill with Premium.

So if the idea is to try to keep the Direct Fuel Injection system clean, will this approach work?
Or do most of you think you MUST run higher octane fuel exclusively?
 
  #37  
Old 02-26-2018, 09:54 AM
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IMO, fuel quality and octane are two separate discussions that cross paths at some point.

Chevron is a great choice for a clean running engine and adding the Techron treatment every so often is a great idea.

I see no value to the occasional tank of premium fuel. The ECU in modern cars work on a Long Term Fuel Trim table and a Short Term Fuel Trim table. Basically, the car uses long term data to establish a base (LTFT) and then adapts rapidly as needed using the current data (STFT). The occasional premium tank keeps the car from retarding the timing via the STFT, but does not allow the full advance offered by the ECU because the 87 tanks have established the LTFT.

With octane selection it's best IMO to select the octane you are going to run and then just stick with it.

87 octane will establish a low base timing and low ignition advance and the motor will survive. It will result in lower power and lower fuel economy, but the motor will be fine. Premium fuel will allow peak performance.

Where the two subjects cross paths is with DI motors. In theory, the additional timing may aid in resisting carbon fouling.
 
  #38  
Old 02-26-2018, 10:26 AM
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I'm going to invest in walnut futures.
 
  #39  
Old 02-26-2018, 10:42 AM
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I'm going to take one for the team and keep using 87 octane from non tiered gas, since that's what I've been doing from pretty much day 1. I'll let you guys know when I hit 100k miles but I'm currently at around 54k miles now.

I'm also looking at doing a catch can. I'll do that once I'm off the drivetrain warranty.
 
  #40  
Old 02-26-2018, 01:08 PM
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GAFIT is dead on the money, 100% correct.

The ecu will form a "base map" to whatever fuel you use more consistently. So basically if you consistently run 87 octane and then suddenly switch to 91 you're really not likely to see any benefits right away, in fact the car might actually feel worse because it's used to 87 but if you give it time, and are consistent with 91 or higher octane the ECU will relearn and reset a basemap for the higher octane and you will enjoy more power, smoother operation, and better fuel economy.

These engines definitely achieve a high enough mechanical compression ratio, to take advantage of higher octane fuels.

As a bonus, if you run chevron 91 or better, you will enjoy MUCH cleaner injectors and intake valves, if you watch a 3d animated rendering of the l15b1 you can clearly see that the combustion chamber mounted injector sprays the backside of the intake valves as they are still partially open during the compression stroke. The more detergents the better for a direct injected engine, you want to take advantage of every possible way to keep these motors clean they run extremely different from your average non direct injection engine and are much more sensitive to the quality of fuel you use.
 

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