First autox and then to the track.
#1
01-22-2012, 01:10 AM
First autox and then to the track.
As I get older it seems that I just want to have less things and make life simpler for myself. I have a track car, but it was a hassle to change tires, and with any car that is heavily modified it had its trips on tow trucks home. I just want to focus on my driving and nothing else. So I am getting rid of the track car and using my DD Fit as a track/DD car. The car is so under powered and the bullet proof Honda engine I doubt anything will ever happened to it.
My goal right now is to tune it to get it track ready. I want to keep it as stock as possible.
Currently it has 185 Optimo H727 - psi is set at 35 F and 40 R
Here is my run today
Honda Fit AutoX AAA Speedway 1/12/12 - YouTube
First impressions -
Understeer - of course it will occur with any front wheel drive car but the problem isn't that bad at all. The overall lightness, frame rigidity, and upping the rear pressure made it feel pretty neutral as long as you don't ask the front to do too many things.
ABS - It is better than flat spotting but the abs is kinda of weak it is better to use threshold breaking and use abs as a back up.
Cornering - just need to build up speed and the car will rotate well and even on stock suspension it does dig in well.
Power band - it is good for 100hp car no lag for autox put probably will happen at the track as you get into higher speeds
Steering is numb - just like all cars with power steering.
The best thing that happened in a rain session is being able to take a nap in the Fit, while it is windy and wet outside. I got a good hour rest and was alert for the second half the day. Since driving is all about focus I think the switch to the Fit was a great idea, I have less to worry about and can focus on my driving.
I think future additions to the car will be running on 205 star spec and adding 2 deg of camber to the front. Before I do this I'll chalk the tires to see if they even needed it and get some temp readings from a hot lap. My current tires don't seem to need the additional front camber. Like most car the camber increases as the suspension travel it might be enough for me to get away with doing nothing and it maintain the -.5 needed during cornering.
I don't seem to have any issues with under steer right now so no rear sway bar is needed since tire pressure seem to solve it for me. This might change with 205 tires that are sticker. I am keeping the stock suspension since it is pretty stable and digs in well. I live in LA I don't need my suspensions any stiffer the roads here suck balls.
My goal right now is to tune it to get it track ready. I want to keep it as stock as possible.
Currently it has 185 Optimo H727 - psi is set at 35 F and 40 R
Here is my run today
Honda Fit AutoX AAA Speedway 1/12/12 - YouTube
First impressions -
Understeer - of course it will occur with any front wheel drive car but the problem isn't that bad at all. The overall lightness, frame rigidity, and upping the rear pressure made it feel pretty neutral as long as you don't ask the front to do too many things.
ABS - It is better than flat spotting but the abs is kinda of weak it is better to use threshold breaking and use abs as a back up.
Cornering - just need to build up speed and the car will rotate well and even on stock suspension it does dig in well.
Power band - it is good for 100hp car no lag for autox put probably will happen at the track as you get into higher speeds
Steering is numb - just like all cars with power steering.
The best thing that happened in a rain session is being able to take a nap in the Fit, while it is windy and wet outside. I got a good hour rest and was alert for the second half the day. Since driving is all about focus I think the switch to the Fit was a great idea, I have less to worry about and can focus on my driving.
I think future additions to the car will be running on 205 star spec and adding 2 deg of camber to the front. Before I do this I'll chalk the tires to see if they even needed it and get some temp readings from a hot lap. My current tires don't seem to need the additional front camber. Like most car the camber increases as the suspension travel it might be enough for me to get away with doing nothing and it maintain the -.5 needed during cornering.
I don't seem to have any issues with under steer right now so no rear sway bar is needed since tire pressure seem to solve it for me. This might change with 205 tires that are sticker. I am keeping the stock suspension since it is pretty stable and digs in well. I live in LA I don't need my suspensions any stiffer the roads here suck balls.
Last edited by thewatcher101; 01-23-2012 at 07:12 AM.
#4
01-22-2012, 09:00 PM
I wish my HD hero didn't run out of batteries or else you can see how well the car is able to rotate around every cone on my dry runs. Since it was raining and there isn't much grip around I pretty much cut across all the sweepers to shorten the distance traveled instead of driving the proper line. Next month I hope to get some video ups.
After some further thoughts about the Fit.
I really like the brakes. The thing stops on a dime and overall great brake feel. The good thing about light slow car is that you shouldn't be on the brakes in the first place and the big rotors and pads really get the car slowed down in a very short distance. I did pick some generic ceramic brakes because I like the braking characteristics of ceramics. I don't think adding SS lines would help since SS lines have a tendency to turn the brakes to an on off switch instead of the modulation that is needed for trail braking and other techniques. Same with super aggressive pads since the car is so light and the rotors are so large it should provide sufficient cooling.
Overall the fit is a very very easy car to drive. Very predictable like a Miata. I bought the Fit as a DD for its mpg, ability to fit all my crap when I move around, and camping. I never thought of it as a fun track car, but it has really proved me wrong. The stock fit is an amazing car and I would rate it as one of the best cheap track car ever. If anything it holds up to the legend of the crx very well. I guess that is why B spec racing has the Fit.
I hope Koni or Bilstein will produce struts for this car. The only alternative right now is the mugen 5 way adj. I think the stock suspension is also very stiff to start with so they should hold me off for a long time. I don't see the point of adding stiffer suspensions as it might affect how the car transfer the rear weight back, so stiffer rear springs might hinder that weight shift. The car digs in just fine without much roll, and unless you're pro driver most of us need the car to dig in.
I hope these tires are worn out fast they are 700 tread rating, and they suck, but I still have about 7/32 left.......lol
After some further thoughts about the Fit.
I really like the brakes. The thing stops on a dime and overall great brake feel. The good thing about light slow car is that you shouldn't be on the brakes in the first place and the big rotors and pads really get the car slowed down in a very short distance. I did pick some generic ceramic brakes because I like the braking characteristics of ceramics. I don't think adding SS lines would help since SS lines have a tendency to turn the brakes to an on off switch instead of the modulation that is needed for trail braking and other techniques. Same with super aggressive pads since the car is so light and the rotors are so large it should provide sufficient cooling.
Overall the fit is a very very easy car to drive. Very predictable like a Miata. I bought the Fit as a DD for its mpg, ability to fit all my crap when I move around, and camping. I never thought of it as a fun track car, but it has really proved me wrong. The stock fit is an amazing car and I would rate it as one of the best cheap track car ever. If anything it holds up to the legend of the crx very well. I guess that is why B spec racing has the Fit.
I hope Koni or Bilstein will produce struts for this car. The only alternative right now is the mugen 5 way adj. I think the stock suspension is also very stiff to start with so they should hold me off for a long time. I don't see the point of adding stiffer suspensions as it might affect how the car transfer the rear weight back, so stiffer rear springs might hinder that weight shift. The car digs in just fine without much roll, and unless you're pro driver most of us need the car to dig in.
I hope these tires are worn out fast they are 700 tread rating, and they suck, but I still have about 7/32 left.......lol
Last edited by thewatcher101; 01-23-2012 at 04:43 AM.
#6
01-23-2012, 12:24 PM
The Swift Mach Sport Springs work very well with stock dampers... I don't know if they would put you in a different class though.
#7
01-23-2012, 03:07 PM
Swift are 168/313
stock are 120/150
that is what I am worried about since the rears are stiffer significantly the car won't squat into the corners as well at 313 rear spring rate for a car that has most of the weight up top the back end will probably be too stiff for me. The faster the weight moves back the better since when exiting corners you want the weight to transfer to the back of the car. But the most important thing would be having good dampers since spring rate is more of a preference.
stock are 120/150
that is what I am worried about since the rears are stiffer significantly the car won't squat into the corners as well at 313 rear spring rate for a car that has most of the weight up top the back end will probably be too stiff for me. The faster the weight moves back the better since when exiting corners you want the weight to transfer to the back of the car. But the most important thing would be having good dampers since spring rate is more of a preference.
Last edited by thewatcher101; 01-24-2012 at 03:16 AM.
#8
01-23-2012, 04:01 PM
Please forgive my ignorance, but why do you want the weight to transfer to the rear in a front drive car?
#9
01-23-2012, 04:20 PM
Swift are 168/313
stock are 120/150
that is what I am worried about since the rears are stiffer significantly the car won't squat into the corners as well at 313 rear spring rate for a car that has most of the weight up top the back end will probably be too stiff for me. The faster the weight moves back the better since when exiting corners you want the weight to transfer to the back of the car. But the most important thing would be having good dampers since spring rate is more of a preference.
stock are 120/150
that is what I am worried about since the rears are stiffer significantly the car won't squat into the corners as well at 313 rear spring rate for a car that has most of the weight up top the back end will probably be too stiff for me. The faster the weight moves back the better since when exiting corners you want the weight to transfer to the back of the car. But the most important thing would be having good dampers since spring rate is more of a preference.
#10
01-23-2012, 07:02 PM
I'll think about a spring upgrade for the track....as autox does not allow any modifications to the spring in H-stock. But this will be a tracked after auto-x testing.
As for weight transfer issue here is an explanation of why having a soft rear helps people go faster.
First, when you corner the front wheel are doing the turning. In a FWD car the front are also giving power, all the weight in a FWD car also doesn't help. Turning and giving power is asking the tires to do too much and with the Fit this feeling becomes either the tire slipping or a numbness in steering because the tires are maxed out of their theoretical 100% grip. In order to correct this during the drive is by careful throttle control to where you don't lose steering and the tires are gripping - this requires a lot of skills because power steering has made the wheel so numb you have to be super sensitive to feel when the steering is lose and your inputs are non responsive. You don't want to let go of the throttle completely because that causes the car to shift weight forward making the problem worse and flooring it usually just makes the car understeer or tire slip because the front grip is maxed out.
This leads to the second reason. You want the car to squat or dig in the rear because that is when you know the weight is all in the back and you can just floor the throttle. The softer rear up to a point will help people pinpoint the exact moment you can apply maximum throttle for the fastest exist speed, since this is one the easiest way to improve your times. Having a stiff suspension are usually set up for excellent drivers who are already well verse in weight transfer, grip, throttle control, and steering feel. They don't need the back to squat to know their car's grip and are much more sensitive to how the car feels then most of us. There are advantages to stiff suspension but most of us will not benefit from it since we don't have the fundamentals of car control to use it. Even then some drives at the competitive level still like things softer since they like being told by the car. Since their philosophy is the more the car hides your mistake and the easier the car is to drive the better you become. Having super stiff suspension makes the car very hard to control almost skittish and dancing in a way and only reserved for those hardcore enough to handle it.
So in short having a high spring rate than stock you lose feeling needed to find the sweet spots for the highest exist speed and a disproportional high rear spring rate further prevents this weight shift needed to free up the fronts so they can turn and put down power.
I just want a fun car that I can also DD and eat pot holes, I know I'm not going to win crap in the Fit other than being oooo that isn't bad for a 100hp econ box and take down crappy drives in nicer cars. So I would stick with softer springs and that is why the Mugen set up is the only ideal one since they don't go crazy with spring rates and they use a high quality dampener.
As for weight transfer issue here is an explanation of why having a soft rear helps people go faster.
First, when you corner the front wheel are doing the turning. In a FWD car the front are also giving power, all the weight in a FWD car also doesn't help. Turning and giving power is asking the tires to do too much and with the Fit this feeling becomes either the tire slipping or a numbness in steering because the tires are maxed out of their theoretical 100% grip. In order to correct this during the drive is by careful throttle control to where you don't lose steering and the tires are gripping - this requires a lot of skills because power steering has made the wheel so numb you have to be super sensitive to feel when the steering is lose and your inputs are non responsive. You don't want to let go of the throttle completely because that causes the car to shift weight forward making the problem worse and flooring it usually just makes the car understeer or tire slip because the front grip is maxed out.
This leads to the second reason. You want the car to squat or dig in the rear because that is when you know the weight is all in the back and you can just floor the throttle. The softer rear up to a point will help people pinpoint the exact moment you can apply maximum throttle for the fastest exist speed, since this is one the easiest way to improve your times. Having a stiff suspension are usually set up for excellent drivers who are already well verse in weight transfer, grip, throttle control, and steering feel. They don't need the back to squat to know their car's grip and are much more sensitive to how the car feels then most of us. There are advantages to stiff suspension but most of us will not benefit from it since we don't have the fundamentals of car control to use it. Even then some drives at the competitive level still like things softer since they like being told by the car. Since their philosophy is the more the car hides your mistake and the easier the car is to drive the better you become. Having super stiff suspension makes the car very hard to control almost skittish and dancing in a way and only reserved for those hardcore enough to handle it.
So in short having a high spring rate than stock you lose feeling needed to find the sweet spots for the highest exist speed and a disproportional high rear spring rate further prevents this weight shift needed to free up the fronts so they can turn and put down power.
I just want a fun car that I can also DD and eat pot holes, I know I'm not going to win crap in the Fit other than being oooo that isn't bad for a 100hp econ box and take down crappy drives in nicer cars. So I would stick with softer springs and that is why the Mugen set up is the only ideal one since they don't go crazy with spring rates and they use a high quality dampener.
Last edited by thewatcher101; 01-23-2012 at 07:12 PM.
#11
01-23-2012, 07:28 PM
Thank you for the explanation. I was looking at it from the other perspective which is when the rear squats it unloads the front suspension and you have less traction available for acceleration.
I can see with a Fit (not TC's) where this would not matter since sticky tires provide all the traction the stock 1.5 will ever put out regardless of conditions. Back when I was more involved with AutoX I had a Taurus SHO and most guys either ran the absolute stiffest rear spring they could find or put limiters in the rear to limit the squat. Those car are tire scorchers so that is the first concern. My second foray into AutoX was with a specV where traction wasn't as big of a problem thanks to the helical limited slip, but most of those guys also run fairly stiff rear springs.
I can see with a Fit (not TC's) where this would not matter since sticky tires provide all the traction the stock 1.5 will ever put out regardless of conditions. Back when I was more involved with AutoX I had a Taurus SHO and most guys either ran the absolute stiffest rear spring they could find or put limiters in the rear to limit the squat. Those car are tire scorchers so that is the first concern. My second foray into AutoX was with a specV where traction wasn't as big of a problem thanks to the helical limited slip, but most of those guys also run fairly stiff rear springs.
#12
01-24-2012, 03:13 AM
Autox is a bit different since winning and losing is down to the tenth of seconds. They usually run very high spring rates to get car as edge as possible. Since the runs have to be perfect and under 60 seconds most competitive autoxers are willing to decrease any roll to gain the few tenth of second to win.
A correction - about weight shift is that traction increases when the weight is increase at whatever end of the car. Under turning and acceleration, weight will move to the back of the car. A soft rear, that squats, will tell the driver when the car is ready for a good throttle control exit balancing between turning and accelerating.
A correction - about weight shift is that traction increases when the weight is increase at whatever end of the car. Under turning and acceleration, weight will move to the back of the car. A soft rear, that squats, will tell the driver when the car is ready for a good throttle control exit balancing between turning and accelerating.
Last edited by thewatcher101; 01-24-2012 at 03:25 AM.
#14
01-24-2012, 05:37 PM
this is why you see miatas in the stock class with some beefy Bilstien shocks but stock springs.
this is useful too
http://www.tirerack.com/features/solo2/handbook.htm
http://www.moutons.org/sccasolo/Rules/index.html
Last edited by JCrimson; 01-24-2012 at 05:39 PM.
#15
01-26-2012, 10:16 PM
1st off 101 respect for auto x'ing your Fit and I hope you don't stop racing... i love to see more Fit Auto X
2nd - 101 seems like you missed a gate at 0:33 seconds into your run
3rd -
I agree with this statement...
4th
I don't agree with this statement... In auto x'ing getting the most out of your car requires getting the most out of your tires and dancing with the limit that is presented to you. How you set-up a car is dependant on many things driver's style, temp of day, rain or no rain, and spring rate is usually a trick to find the right spring rate frequency according to weight on the tire, the tire itself, and the suspension geometry.
Being that GD Fit have about 62% of the weight on the front tires, about 750lb on the each front tire and about 450lb on the each rear, it makes sense to try to stuff the most tire you can get away with in the front this will ultimately give you enough traction to get away from the understeer happiness that is a FWD car. Especially with the low speed (2nd gear) tight turns that most Fit's will see while auto x'ing...
Currently I'm in love with my Skunk2 suspension and 225 tire in the front and 205 in the rear... now if only i could get a LSD in ST Class SCCA
2nd - 101 seems like you missed a gate at 0:33 seconds into your run
3rd -
4th
Being that GD Fit have about 62% of the weight on the front tires, about 750lb on the each front tire and about 450lb on the each rear, it makes sense to try to stuff the most tire you can get away with in the front this will ultimately give you enough traction to get away from the understeer happiness that is a FWD car. Especially with the low speed (2nd gear) tight turns that most Fit's will see while auto x'ing...
Currently I'm in love with my Skunk2 suspension and 225 tire in the front and 205 in the rear... now if only i could get a LSD in ST Class SCCA
#16
01-26-2012, 10:50 PM
I was trying to be nice and figure out why you would want to unload the front suspension and take available traction away from the drive wheels. That was the only thing I could come up with I still would want all available traction ie. weight on the drive wheels for powering out of a turn. However, I must add that the few times I've run a course, I'm more of a moderate speed in and full throttle out kind of driver.
I still would want all available traction ie. weight on the drive wheels for powering out of a turn. However, I must add that the few times I've run a course, I'm more of a moderate speed in and full throttle out kind of driver.
#17
01-26-2012, 10:58 PM
lol.......good eye.....i pulled the wrong file to upload.....but you get the idea......i will start posting more video of each event I go to. A few more autox event than off to the track.
I wish Hankook RS3 would come in 225 and 205 so I can run 15x9.....the only option right now looks like NT-01 that comes in these two sizes, but I can't DD with NT-01 - i'm not made out of money and if I wanted to swamp tires every time I track I would have kept the track car.
I think I am going to wear out the H727 first......i hate to waste things, and just have a 205 set up all around so I don't have to upgrade to wider wheels.
There is no such thing as unlimited traction.
I wish Hankook RS3 would come in 225 and 205 so I can run 15x9.....the only option right now looks like NT-01 that comes in these two sizes, but I can't DD with NT-01 - i'm not made out of money and if I wanted to swamp tires every time I track I would have kept the track car.
I think I am going to wear out the H727 first......i hate to waste things, and just have a 205 set up all around so I don't have to upgrade to wider wheels.
There is no such thing as unlimited traction.
#18
01-27-2012, 12:23 AM
Toyo R1R's come in 225 and 205... Just fyi... Also i'm running my 225 on a 7.5" width rim... And no problem
#19
01-27-2012, 12:37 AM
ooo yah Toyo.... are what all the national champ ST class runs......and also toyo r888 but they are too rich for my blood on a DD. Someone is telling me try the RS-R they are alright for a light car like the fit and they are super cheap, and it doesn't rain in socal so they should be fine since they don't have a center channel. I'll see what happens when these guys are gone but right now the Z1 Star Spec are hard to beat in terms of tread life, wet and dry performance. I had XS before and they sucked in the rain and required a lot of heat, but they were sticky when you got them up there. The RS-3 are pretty sticky to start with my brother has it on his car, but I am only running a 6.5 wide rim.
#20
01-27-2012, 09:45 AM
lol.......good eye.....i pulled the wrong file to upload.....but you get the idea......i will start posting more video of each event I go to. A few more autox event than off to the track.
I wish Hankook RS3 would come in 225 and 205 so I can run 15x9.....the only option right now looks like NT-01 that comes in these two sizes, but I can't DD with NT-01 - i'm not made out of money and if I wanted to swamp tires every time I track I would have kept the track car.
I think I am going to wear out the H727 first......i hate to waste things, and just have a 205 set up all around so I don't have to upgrade to wider wheels.
There is no such thing as unlimited traction.
I wish Hankook RS3 would come in 225 and 205 so I can run 15x9.....the only option right now looks like NT-01 that comes in these two sizes, but I can't DD with NT-01 - i'm not made out of money and if I wanted to swamp tires every time I track I would have kept the track car.
I think I am going to wear out the H727 first......i hate to waste things, and just have a 205 set up all around so I don't have to upgrade to wider wheels.
There is no such thing as unlimited traction.
