Ok I figured I would start a new thread to continue the discussion about modifying a major structural component THE FRAME RAILS on the FIT.

WARNING: if you do not want to read about a problem with the K-20 swap and why parts of it are a bad idea STOP READING NOW AND BACK SLOWLY OUT OF THIS THREAD and click on a post you want to read.

Replies with intelligent comments are welcome but please no whining about the legal problems and "everybody is doing it" type posts. If you aren't interested please move on to a post that you are interested in because now I'm not cluttering up anybodies sacred cow thread this thread is going to discuss it.

All modern motor vehicles have been designed with what has come to be known as a "Crumple Zone". Which simply put is a section of the front body work and engine support parts that are designed to deform at known rates and predictable directions. The zone is used to direct the impact forces in known directions to help reduce the forces passing into the passenger cabin to reduce injuries INSIDE THE CABIN where the PEOPLE ARE.

The crumple zone with it's attending parts have been designed using modern computer modeling and the results are verified by CRASH TESTING (where have we heard that term before). The crash testing is used so the engineers can see the results in the real world not just on the computer.

The engineers look at the crash test results and if things don't go exactly as they designed the zone for changes are made in the design of the parts so the result is a section of the body that helps moderate and direct the forces of the crash away from the passenger compartment as much as possible.

The directing of the impact forces is accomplished by having the main structural components deform AT KNOWN RATES AND DIRECTIONS. The frame rails are designed to work in tandem so the forces can be diverted to both sides of the crumple zone resulting in a reduction of the forces sent into the cabin reducing injuries to passengers.

Here comes the bogeyman ...... if any part of the crumple zone components is modified the result is NO ONE KNOWS FOR SURE WHAT EFFECT THE MODIFICATIONS WILL HAVE ON THE DIRECTING AND ATTENUATING OF THE IMPACT FORCES.

Simply put that means all that computer work and crash testing done by the engineers at great expense and many many man hours gets tossed out the window and nobody can know how the crumple zone is going to work when unauthorized modifications are made.

Why should we care about what the crumple zone is doing or not doing???? Imagine your loved ones, wife, daughter, or son sitting in the passenger seat and because of the modifications the impact forces from a crash instead of being directed to all the other parts of the zone and under the passenger cabin away from the passengers ALL THOSE FORCES ARE DIRECTED INTO THE CABIN IN ONE SPOT RIGHT IN FRONT OF THE PASSENGER?? You want to take the chance if it can be eliminated by NOT modifying any part of the crumple zone??

OK so WHY would the forces be directed differently with a modified part?? Both main fame rails start out designed so that in a full frontal collision they collapse and or deform at the same rate so the forces of the crash spread out to both frame rails EVENLY and are directed DOWNWARD UNDER THE PASSENGER CABIN.

If you cut the frame rail and do not bother to re-enforce it the rail will deform much quicker than the unmodified rail on the other side simply because it is less strong from the cutting and modification of it's shape from the design that Honda spent so much time and money figuring out.

So there you are modified frame rail less strong and a different shape than originally designed and you get into the same full frontal crash what is going to happen???? Anybody??? THAT IS THE PROBLEM NOBODY KNOWS FOR SURE WHAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN TO THE IMPACT FORCES.

Using simple physics one can make an informed prediction... that modified, less strong frame rail is going to crumple MUCH FASTER THAN AN UNMODIFIED frame rail and in turn the impact forces will be vectored into that area of the frame because of physics and movement of forces tend to take the path of least resistance. Resulting in more of the impact force being directed straight back INTO THE PASSENGER CABIN with it's precious cargo.

Same set up this time the cut frame rail is re-enforced with some metal plating welded onto the cut parts. Result a frame rail that maybe MUCH STRONGER than the original part. Result the frame rail crumples at a much slower rate and unknown direction than the unmodified rail. Result impact forces going where???? Anybody guess??? Same problem no way of knowing FOR SURE where the impact forces are going to go. Educated guess less forces being vectored into the other parts resulting in the frame rail becoming a focal point of all the impact forces being directed straight back not downward as designed.

And that folks is why all the kits will now and forever be marked for off road use only. There is NO CONTROL OVER THE MODIFICATIONS BY THE KIT MAKERS and can never be unless they require the installation of the kit in their garage, by their employees, after crash testing SO ALL THE MODIFICATIONS RE DONE EXACTLY THE SAME EVERYTIME. If they sell kits only, the people buying the kits can make the frame cuts with varying skill levels and different ways of doing the actual cutting and or welding with the resulting UNKNOWN EFFECTS ON THE CRUMPLE ZONE.

So there you have it the WHY of the problem chose what you want to do I'm not going to tell anybody what they must do. You have the information now to make an INFORMED CHOICE so please don't kill the messenger take it or leave it it's up to you.

 

in for possible carnage... lol jk.

 

cause that would really be a bummer...

Anywho...Im not knocking your post claymore...but I am a bit scared that this would actually be news to anyone...

claymroe-"Here comes the bogeyman ...... if any part of the crumple zone components is modified the result is NO ONE KNOWS FOR SURE WHAT EFFECT THE MODIFICATIONS WILL HAVE ON THE DIRECTING AND ATTENUATING OF THE IMPACT FORCES."

that pretty much sums it all up...and even that is long...
Still probably safer than an Aveo...
I have always wondered why no one cares about lowering or raising a vehicle and how that affects it crashworthiness

"WARNING" irony alert...
The accident in my civic that caused me to buy a Fit was compounded by the probability that my injuries were as severe as they were because of the airbag! This has lead a few of my (very unfortunate) colleagues to conclude that its the luck of the draw and matters little what one does to their vehicle if one drives responsibly.

I can only respond with "It matters very little how you do things, (within this mindset) it greatly depends on how others do things".

I am more concerned about mods that affect the way other cars are demolished in crashes...ie raising a vehicle...among others...

I love modded vehicles...I think alot of things just get overlooked!
Im all for decapitation by artistic expression...its what makes the world go round
*everybody starts holding hands*

 

Jeeze I'm in enough heat already if you want to jump on the lowering legal problems and the effect on impacts I will be right behind you.

The post was long and detailed because while you get it in one sentence some of our members have to be ...... well I will leave you to make you own conclusions.

 

As usual, an honest, reasonable post based on years of experience. As usual, the message will be lost on people who have no mechanical background, and who pay someone else to do their modifications. Good work, claymore.

 

Any and all mods, if not done properly can cause problems. The problem with all the mods is that sometimes the people doing them and the people getting them done:

a) They dont know what they are doing (installation and such)
b) They dont do the research. (what potntial effect the mod might have on the car)
c) They dont care. (retard city)

Case an point, again this is based on my GF working as an accident investigator.

Subject purchased a racing type roll cage for his Civic. He was the king of the world as it made his Civic look COOL. The subject was later involved in a car accident. It was determined that the cage in fact did its job by protecting the seating compartment. Problem is no one told the subject (or he didnt listen or care) that race car drivers wear helmets. Since the subject placed it in his Civic which he drives on a daily basis, he obviously wasn't wearing a helmet thinking the cage will protect him. In this case it actually killed him as his head, during impact hit one of the roll bars fracturing his skull. It was determined that if he had not had the cage, yes he would have been hurt, but he'd be alive, the damage to the rest of his body was survivable.

Lesson: All mods are cool but do your homework first (specially when looking at items the can compromise saftey), learn the pros and cons, ask for a second opinion, decide if the potential risk is worth it before making a choice. There is no reason to be a lazy ass when saftey is in question.

However if you are really willing to go splat into a tree and kill yourself, more power to you, I wont stop you, but can I have your wallet before you do that act so I can go shopping?

 

GREAT post- thanks!

 

This is the same issue that every "minitrucker" must go through when deciding to install notches, or otherwise modify the frame rail.

Most go into it with their eyes wide open to the reality that they may not be covered in case of an accident due to their frames being modified. Especially the guys messing with new trucks. It also voids pretty much every drivetrain warranty as well.

With how in-depth the k20 is to install, i would suspect that everyone whould/should go into the swap with the exact same precautions.


WITH THAT SAID... every single mount swap kit for a Honda CRX requires modifications of the 'crumple zones', as well as the rear structural crossmember... B series, K series, and H series.

There have been no instances that i'm aware of where insurance was withheld, or anyone was 'wronged' somehow by it. and these are by far the most common swaps performed. there are countless numbers of these swaps to every ONE Fit K swap there is... This wouldn't stop me from doing a K in my Fit... other things would, but not that. Its the price you pay... simple enough.


If you're THAT worried about everything, just buy a Volvo, toss in your favorite bumper sticker yelling at someone for doing something you don't agree with, and add your favorite air freshener to the rear view to cover up your stink, and carry on with your life.

I'm gonna go put a dent in a framerail now for (yet) another swap...

 

Claymore, as discussed in the other thread...

My issue with modifcation to the frame isn't the safety. I understand that completely. The issue I have is that you claim that there are legal or insurance issues with such swaps, both on a state and federal level. You've said a couple of times that I should know the laws, but the burden of proof is on you. We all know it's a lot more difficult to prove a negative than to simply point out a positive that exists. If it's such a big deal, and you have so much experience investigating accidents, PLEASE show which law makes these kind of swaps illegal, and PLEASE find record of a couple cases of insurance money withheld because of a frame-altering swap.

 

I dont know much about the insurance coverage thingy...but if I remember correctly if you dont inform the insurer on the mod...then they have the right not to honour...right? If however one does inform the insurer and they agree...then all is good on that front (not safer physicaly but wallet wise you might be)

Hey wait a minute...I thought Volvos were not as safe anymore...
and on top of that...didnt the Volvo "like a tank" come about because they were super boxy, used heavy gauge metal, and were just plain heavy? Just curious... Heck I would sex up a Volvo any day! The older ones are uber hot and ride like a lazy roller coaster !(its actually fun!!!)
could just be me though...

 

Correct sir. I don't know the actual terminology, I'll have to ask my gf when I get home if I remember. But yes, you will be covered for only the basic car. Hence is you get in an accident and you mess up your spiffy new CF hood, you will only get reimbursed or paid out for a stock hood. Unless you tell the insurance company to cover you aftermarket parts (not all of them will) you are not covered for them. The other side of this is if you do tell them to cover the aftermarket parts, your premiums go up. So its your call which way you want to go. Save a few bucks and dont tell em, or tell em and pay more $$$.

 

Then I am definately not going to inform State Farm on my new sticker!

Hey thats a new loop hole... (probably not but im gunna run with it )

...some of the aftermarket parts are cheaper than OEM...hmmm... what a great money maker for someone with far more luck than me and my family combined!

About the roll cage thingy (dont really know if this would help much) who doesnt put the padding bars or tubes around them? Cuz even in a minor accident or rough roads ...slap your noggin on that! Cant imagine that being healthy!

Hey...who are these people that can afford increased insurance rates...
so....you do a swap...and cant pay for the insurance....HAHAHAHAHAaahaa tragic irony going on there or what

 

LOL cheaper doesnt mean safer man. Saw someone on the 605S yesterday whose aftermarket hood decided to fly off at speed. Hit the car behind and caused a couple cars to swerve and such. Bits of the hood were all over the freeway. I think only three cars were involved since traffic was fairly light.

 

GOOD GAWD!!! I was thinking more along the lines of aftermarket tails...EEEks!

Back on topic though...atleast the k-swap would make your car heavier, for anybody who is scared that the heavy.. oops I mean light Fit had a lack of momentum when at speed! You may die in a wreck now... but HELL you might just take out the emblem on the "other" guys car!

 

Well good topics coming in. Shake things up a bit and if I were a betting man I would bet that IF someone was interested in "Keeping EVERYTHING LEGAL" and they looked real hard they might come across a line somewhere in their state Motor Vehicle laws that said something along this line .... No part of the vehicle will extend lower than the bottom edge of the mounted wheel (lowered much?)

How about.... No part of the vehicle shall come into contact with the outer surface of the vehicles tires (rubbing much?)

Possibility .... no tire of a size 2" less in width than the rim shall be installed
(stretched tire look)

Another POSSIBILITY (for sure king pin angle) There shall be a camber angle of less than +/- ???? degrees (wouldn't that bring on some rants)

Another biggy there shall be no modification to any suspension part that effects the safety of the vehicle w/o an inspection of modifications at M/V HQ. (rear wheel shims or washers)

Nice project for someone thinking about lowering their cars but heaven forbid I do it time for someone else to take some of hate/heat

 

so i guess this is another reason to choose forced induction over a K swap... less money and safer, how could one loose?

 

Can you cite those or are you just pulling them out of your ass again?

 

Like I keep telling you do your own work. Tell me were you one of the inspectors that worked form a check list only or did you have to look things up occasionly? And notice the use of qualifiers like possibility ETC. Hey you can make this your homework assignment.

 

I'm just trying to point out that you don't know what you're talking about. It's not my job to find it, you brought it up, not me. My point is that you are going out of your way to scare people out of doing certain modifications for no reason, you can't even back up what you're saying. If you're going to continue providing false information to people and being a jerk about it at the same time, why are you even here?

And notice the use of punctuation like commas ( , ) and proper use of capitalisation.

 

If you look it up yourself you will remember it better just like you teacher always told you. There is no need to "back it up" I have told you where to find the information several times if you don't feel like looking well WGAF.

Some of us actually were law enforcement professionals and actually had to learn these things to do our job hence the qualifiers if I'm not 100 sure about something it goes in the POSSIBILITY section.

I didn't bring this up I was having some fun replying to another member who suggested this topic for investigation so go jump on him for trying to scare people and lighten up we were getting some good posts until the people afraid of talking about the legalities of certain subjects started in with their negativity man your messing up the vibes and harshing our mellow.

If you not enjoying the subject I suggest checking the warning in the header and clicking on another post one that you like and can enjoy it's apparent your not enjoying your time here.

And this is my thread if you don't like it feel free to start your own post. And I have the right to "BE HERE" and have been here a LOT longer than you. So like I have said MANY TIMES BEFORE this post came with a warning please heed the advice and move along or simply add my name to your ignore list and you don't ever have to read another post of mine EVER.