Very cool, you know AMS is here in Chicago right? I think that is Martin's GTR, if I recall correctly.

From the other thread you linked me a while back, it looks like he is learning fast too.

His project is going to be a DD right? That is going to be a blast for a first car, very jealous! And by the time he can afford to buy like a civic or something as a stock DD, he will know enough about the game to go big on the base he is building himself!

Speaking of learning.. as a good example of how everyone young or old, veteran or novice can always learn something new or do something stupid..

I found some really boneheaded mistakes I made that was making tuning tough lately. When I recently decided to change out my IC piping from 2.5" to 2.75" (I'll get to why in a minute..) and installed a new BOV, I had to redo a few vacuum/boost reference lines as well as move my IAT sensor, MAP sensor, Meth computer and reservoir.

So in the quest to keep air flow below .4 mach in the charge pipes, but still keep it moving fast enough and then being rushed on it by the weather I made a real mess. But modern (if you can call 1992 modern) ECUs are really incredibly good at trying to make everything run normally, and it masked the problems quite well on its own, though a few were unavoidable.

Additionally I tried to shorten the wiring between my UEGO Controller and my ECU.

Because I was parked out side on a relatively sunny day while doing all this, and it got nasty real fast with everything taken apart and it is a car that doesn't get driven in the rain or snow (unless I am running out of gas or something and already on the road), I found myself putting things back together faster than I would like.. This resulted in:

1.) Accidently using the same manifold reference for both my new Greddy Type S BOV and my Boost controller. This resulted in all sorts of nastyness and weird break up and stumbling under boost from fluctuating airflow messing up my fuel delivery and timing and the computer freaking out and pulling ALL timing and fuel on some events

2.) The hasty wiring job wound up accidently splicing the wrong input for my UEGO into my knock sensor So the ECU was not getting signal from either.. for my last few runs and I don't know what if any knock I was seeing during break up because of my boost references being all F-ed up.. I finally saw that I had a DTC thrown up for "Knock Sensor Ciruit 01." I somehow managed to miss that in all my recent logs that even though AFRest was following my Wideband gauge, in the logs my value for "AEMWB5bar" was reading 9:1AFRs (0 volts) the whole way through!

3.) Because I am running a 5 Bar MAP sensor, the resolution is relatively low to begin with as it is only 0-5volt like the other 2, 3 and 3.5 Bar sensors. On top of that I was not entirely aware how sensitive to vibration and distance the unit was. I had it almost hanging free from a 9" reference line. So when I looked at the raw sensor voltage I could see it was all over the place.

4.) I need to add a couple of grounds and increase my idle because I relocated the battery to the trunk to pass tech certs for next year and even though I used a 1ga. cable and 1ga ground and installed a 150A alternator and a 2ga. charge wire @ 850rpm idle on big lopey cams voltage fluctuates as much as .5-.8v with all the pumps, fans, lights, heater and gauges on. This leaves me between 12.4-13.x volts at idle which is not acceptable and the fuel system and sensors hate it. But I make 13.9volts @1150 rpm and 14.4v at 1500rpm, so ~1100rpm is now my new idle.

I knew I had a couple of relatively big issues to tend to but between school, full time job, girlfriend and my dad being so sick, there was no time, so I said screw it and locked the car in open loop!

Until I developed a boost leak last weekend I never even bothered to fix any of the above.

The car ran pretty strong and smooth even under >25psi which considering the above idiocy on my part is seemingly impossible, and on top of that I have been using a version of the 2004 Evo 8 GSR Ralliart Timing/Fuel tables as a template that I have been tweaking and a VE table I had to calibrate myself without a MAS/MAF to provide a sanity check. So it is not the most conservative tune either.

Anyways I should be addressing all of that and re-installing my meth kit along with a second larger nozzle, armed/low fluid warning light and a larger 2-3gal reservoir so I don't have to refill as often and then going back north of 30psi!

 

My son knows of the 3 speed shops that opened up up at the same time ams is the leader of the 3 but all specialize in different things. I have to give him the books that I have so he can learn more about things but hes on the right track with out them. His car will be finished this spring as long as his grades are up and gets a part time job. My older son has built a few Honda motors and is working on a drag car expected to race in the quick 8 series.

Is your car fixable or did it damage the turbo or motor. It seems like it went rich to protect it but you could still have problems.

 

AMS is the way to go if you are taking it somewhere for work or tuning, but that requires a big budget haha I have a couple books I can send your way too since I know you guys are only a couple towns over. Certainly sounds like he's on the right track, and using grades as incentive is a good idea!

Your older son is also on Honda-Tech as well if I remember from the thread you sent me... What is he building up? Quick 8 is pretty ambitious, that would be really cool!

My car is fine, no damage done fortunately all my maps were pretty well calibrated so it drove almost perfectly normal when locked in open loop.

Even though I let it sit for days at a time when it is nasty out like this the Laser is turn-key and idles on it's own, even with the boost leak because I am running Speed Density.

Just frustrating that I made that many mistakes trying to get it back together before it did that crazy freezing rain/snow crap all over the engine bay whle the hood was up.

But I figured out what is wrong and as soon as I have time and feel like lying upside down with my head in the footwell while soldering inside the center console.. it should all be resolved!

 

"Upside down with my head in the footwell"..... It hurts me to even think about doing that.

 

It's frustrating having to be the one to find these things out since I'm apparently the first. The GE8 stock injectors are definitely bigger than 185cc which explains why it was so difficult to zero in the STFT. They use the same injectors on the l15a7 and r18 but I can't get a reliable answer on the flow rate. whipers on the 8th gen forum indicate thy may be 277cc. But my fuel map zeros out at a -30% on 310cc injectors which should make the stock injectors about 220cc. Who knows. And I found out I will not be having problems with recirc. I can't (or rather shouldn't) do a draw through setup with this MAF because it's a hotwire which means the IAT is built into the MAF which means I have to do a blow through setup to get accurate IATs. However, I fear that the stock abs plastic MAF sensor tube is going to just blow up under boost and I dont even want to think about calibrating the MAF for a larger pipe. It was pain enough to write the MAF clamp under stock conitions. The voltage likes fluctuate WILDLY as it is. At least with blow through I wont have to worry about venting to atmosphere. The end is in sight and it drives me crazy.

On the other hand, once it is all over, if I am in fact the first, It would be neat to get some sort of subtle custom decal that says "World's First USDM Turbo GE8 Honda fit" and then in small print underneath "and it's still slow"

 

See, it is the stuff you are going through that caused me to go with the Hondata reflash. I have an AEM F/IC but will have to keep on reading what you smart guys with more balls than I have are finding out.

 

Ive been in research mode this afternoon and found a few things. Heres a E85 conversion E85 Vs Conventional Gasoline - Import Tuner Magazine

Water injection Water / Methanol Injection - Import Tuner Magazine

 

You should, I would say you have earned it. Not too mention you are probably one of if not the first to DIY turbo their GE8. Hows the base tuning going?

And if the Stock injectors are in fact ~275cc/min but have a similar latency to the 310's I would just go with the 310s and use one or two of the stockers to spray fuel post MAF/IAT and pre-TB. I Know the AEM FIC has a 6 and 8 injector driver version so either should allow you to do this relatively easily.

 

Those are both pretty good intros to E85 and Meth, but the Meth link was particularly good! I like Devils Own kits, they make some of the best progressive controllers available at the moment IMHO.

I also like that they used an Evo 8 (4G63T ) for their test bed. It is hard to get around the changes they make too.

they picked up ~70lb-ft at the wheels switching to E85 and ~30lb-ft from the Water/Meth on their basemaps!

 

[QUOTE=DiamondStarMonsters;944684]

Your older son is also on Honda-Tech as well if I remember from the thread you sent me... What is he building up? Quick 8 is pretty ambitious, that would be really cool!
QUOTE]

Ya, he stopped working on it but has all the weight out, roll cage in, suspension parts, the engine is half done and needs the head worked on. Its a high compression motor that gonna have a small NO2 shot to help it rev and is expected to be around 300 plus all motor(1.9liter). I know the Hp seems low but its very light. When he start the planning there was a similar motor that ran 11.6 and was very consistent and well tuned. His car is a lot lighter. Its gonna take so time b4 he finishes it. 1 car at a time, have to get the turbo done its closer to being finished. Theres a show in Atlanta Georgia in April, I think they want to take turbo. Time and weather are not on there side right know but thats 1 of their goals. When he built the jdm b16 that car was quick, that was the first time vtec pulled me in to in the seat and I thought all vtecs were like that. It wasn't even close to red line and that got me nervous at 7200 and red line 9500. That motor ended up in a Civic and won Import Wars, (13.2 second car with a small shot to help it breathe) a long time ago. I Like Honda for that reason in a day you can take the motor trans and pretty much every thing apart and put back together in a weekend at least my son did.

 

It sounds like I may have to have a chat with him sometime then, 13 sec quarter is no joke in a 1.6L! No matter how light. He could probably teach me a good deal about N/A Hondas. Will they be trailering the car if they run down to Atlanta?

I def hear ya on the weather haha, we have something like 6-9" over here by the lake and after spending all last winter in a one piece Carhardt under the Laser... at night.... in the snow, I am finding it hard to do it as much this year now that it's turn-key even though I have a garage to myself cuz we had so many car/trucks/bikes and nitro remote control cars clogging the driveway and basement with wheels, tires and various other parts that are now finished or sold.

But if they need a hand or are missing an obscure tool or something hit me up, I'd love to check it out and I have til Jan 18 before I dive back into school.

 

No the turbo is a daily driver, My older sons car will be trailered when done but I figure he will drive it on the streets too.

Honda biggest problem it needs help reving because torque is low. So a 50 hp shot of Nitrous does wonders. The car had stage 2 cams and only produce 158 Hp at the wheels NA with no NO2, and that engine was thrashed and still had no problems.

We got 14 inches total storm and I was up at 6 am digging my way out. I hear its gonna warm up which means Ice and flooding, but need it to make room for more snow.

My son might know you, when I said DSM he knew what web site you post on and Like you said the north shore has the fastest cars and they all know of each other in one way or another.

I wanted to add about tuning and correct me if I am wrong. Max brake torque is at 32 degrees which would be a total 45-47 degrees of timing in a NA motor so in theory 27+15= 42 degrees which would mean 90 efficient on premium and regular 21+15= 36 degrees which means 70 percent efficient at wide open throttle and the goal is 32 with a total of 45-47. I know there more to it but it explain what honda data says and some of the tech Ive put out. Turbo is different and you know more than me but hope to understand it better soon. Basically there is 3 for each fuel(regular/ultra premium 99 ron) set of maps for a tune Air/Fuel/Timing Air being the most important to get every thing else right, Fuel is standard and then timing which changes but related to air. The new Honda seem to have multipliable Maps in all and use them to build a tune as you drive in close loop. Open loop seems to be richer than it should(11.5 at 70 percent load) but running premium the ecu pulls fuel out even in open loop using the MAF sensor. The load at take off is at 95 percent even with a light press of the throttle so the best way is to get up to speed faster and then the load is not high. Acceleration is better with premium so you get up to speed faster and then you have this Fuel Economy Tuning - Tech Review - Honda Tuning Magazine

Then I found this and it seems the ecu does tune as you go even with bolt ons. Honda Fit Power Pages - Import Tuner Magazine

 

Well figuring out timing at first feels like it is some sort of black art, and realistically it kind of is because it can be so radically different car to car.

In some situations MBT is found through retarding spark advance. In street cars where this is the case under high load/low rpm you can sometimes see as much -15* for a given fuel. In some data logs for pure drag applications, cars that do not see the street and don't see dynotime (because the wear on the engine and repair are too expensive ) spark will sweep from +17-18* as far as -40* and then flip back to +20* under WOT at parts of the upper rev range. I am still learning about this condition frankly as it is not something I have ever had to deal with. I think it is a concern when you are running more than 3-4Bar boost and winding out a high compression (10.x:1) turbo 4cyl to 9.5k rpm.

An easy way to get started on your timing and fuel maps is use a base map or zero everything out on your VE, Timing and Fuel maps.

Once your VE table is sorted (which is a whole other discussion) get your AFRs in line. First find an cruise (14.1-15.4:1AFRs) and WOT AFR you are comfortable with, like 12.0-12.5 @ WOT in vacuum all the way up to 0psi and from 0psi-14.7psi (1bar) you should be able to get away with anything between 10.5-11.7:1AFR. This will vary from set up to set up so aim conservative and be mindful or knock. If you are starting to accelerate and you feel some stuttering or hear anything stop, pull over and enrich. You are running 0* timing at the moment so now we know that for whatever fuel you are using that you are running too lean, enrich the mixture a couple points and try again (ASSuming your VE table is correct as well as all your sensors )

Tuning for boost is also a bit of a black art... but not as bad as tuning for say Nitromethane

When you get to figuring out your timing for a given cell start at 0* and add timing in increments from 2-5* till you get knock then back out 1-2*F Remember you want your timing curves to be just that, curves and as smooth as possible.

So if you are knocking at a certain point take out some timing or enrich the mixture in the cells you travel through on the way to the scenario where you see knock!

All the above, with proper injector/base fuel pressure settings and a relatively accurate VE map is how you make a fast car in your garage that is also a pleasure to cruise around in for hours! A radio doesn't hurt either..

 

A good .pdf with charts and such on bearing wear and analysis from Mahle:

http://www.mahleclevite.com/publications/CL77-3-402.pdf

 

Good find Thanks

 

I put that out there as a kind of lead in to this next one to a company that will provide ceramic bearings.. mains/rods wheel bearings etc.

Bearing & Ball Types by Boca Bearings :: Ceramic Bearing Specialists

If you remember a couple weeks ago I found a discussion on how much energy is wasted just turning the crank because of bearing friction, in a similar size 4 cyl they were losing as much as 12.x HP per main bearing under WOT

Here is a guy who switched his two rear wheel bearings on his modular ford and picked up 10whp:
http://www.modularfords.com/forums/s...wheel-bearings

I found another thread on ceramic bearings where someone making a hair under 500awhp on a 2.0 4 cyl picked up 3.x mph in his quarter speed. Now when you are trapping +150mph this is a big deal. That is a lot of power being freed up.

For people seriously interested in gas mileage, which seem to be a lot of the members here this is one of the few mods that if you can pony up the initial premium you stand to make an investment in something that will pay for its self in fuel savings over a few years for people who drive more than 20k/year with fuel as expensive as it is currently and projected to be in the future..

 

I was look at this Fuel Economy Tuning - Tech Review - Honda Tuning Magazine and figured it out.

There is a few percent mpg gain by running in MBT timing. I also noticed that the car runs in closed loop under full loads and goes open loop when the TPS in high. All added up and the more efficient burn equals more mpg with premium. Regular gas timing goes higher and have to press down on the gas pedal more to make the car move equals a less efficient and poorer running car and a few percent less mpg. Thats not including Knock so if knock is present then more fuel is add to prevent knock.

If the Fit runs 11.5 in open loop with regular at load higher than 70 percent, that explain so of the bad mpg people are getting. I was on the highway and operated at 70 percent load at 70 miles an hour in closed loop. That explains when I dynoed my Fit it operated at a 14.2 fuel air at full throttle with premium in closed loop. It probably would have been alot richer with regular gas but didn't have a chance to test it.

 

Its good info but its for RC hobby cars. You can lower the temp of the bearing by using synthetic grease too. Its good info to explain the kind of bearings though.

 

That is great info, and more or less is exactly what I would expect of the fit, and it has even adjusted your target AFR/Lambda to adjust for the slightly richer demands of E10 pump, even though I know you don't use it, which tells me something more about actual cylinder conditions.. was it particularly warm that day? How long between getting of the highway after a 70mi cruise and then being strapped onto the dyno?


Actually they do everything from hobby RC cars, to pneumatic dental tools to giant truck tire sized cased bearings all in full ceramic.

They are pretty flexible, and I know of a few people who have used and testified to them but because of who and where they wouldn't appreciate it if I gave everything away, so instead I am trying to find good sources on my own, and these are one of the companies I was allowed to provide a link for on a public forum

 

[QUOTE=DiamondStarMonsters;945415]That is great info, and more or less is exactly what I would expect of the fit, and it has even adjusted your target AFR/Lambda to adjust for the slightly richer demands of E10 pump, even though I know you don't use it, which tells me something more about actual cylinder conditions.. was it particularly warm that day? How long between getting of the highway after a 70mi cruise and then being strapped onto the dyno?

The Fit was dynoed in 2008 at dyno days, they wanted a base line so they ran my car. I had about 6000 miles on it in early May and was 66 degrees, low humidity and ran 91.1 hp and 88.31 and fuel air was 14.2 with BP at full throttle. A difference of 22 percent from the 11.5 it was suppose to be in open loop.

I changed the SG to Map,Lod, open/closed/ fuel usage and noticed that the Lod is high even at idle 30 and that when taking off is it 95 and at cruise its around 60 /70 at cruise in close loop. In open loop heavy load it used 10 gallons plus and hour and in the Summer it would not go past 6 gallons and hour. I am wondering if they are using ethanol over 10 percent in the winter and use butanols in the summer. The mpg on the tank is 32 mpg.

I filled up the other day and noticed when I filled up the 1 gallon gas can that it took more than a gallon plus 8 oz of oil and there was a few oz of gas still in the can. That would be .5 gallon that I did not get between the car and gas can and that would be 20 miles worth or 2 mpg.