THIS! You have to buy a UEGO, Ultragauge, and Boost gauge anyway (you could just use the Ultragauge to read manifold pressure until you are FI) It really helped me prepare for what was ahead. Heck, you should even install an FIC once you are ready and start making some logs, watching IDCs, tuning for larger injectors, etc. The information you collect NA is invaluable once your are FI.

 

What that's not even close there guy. Even the "almighty" EPA has "divined" that cars from 2001+ are safe to run on E15, just search Google. And back when Gasoline was under $3 a gallon Ethanol was being delivered to the pump for $2 a gallon, now that price is $1.50 with subsidies and Brazil was importing Corn Ethanol due to high Sugar prices Source:FEATURE: Brazil imports record ethanol volumes on weather, harvest woes - Petrochemicals | Platts News Article & Story. The energy balance argument has been accepted as positive from the DOE to the Argon Laboratory. The only ones still parroting that waste of energy line are those that go off of Dr. Pimental's work which is an abnormality while all of the other studies, not based on his work, find at least positive results if not a significant return on energy invested. Source: Energy Report on Ethanol

And E30-E40 does not run better in cars because it makes them lean, they would lose power if they did and get better MPG, they don't. All new car engines are equipped to run Stoich for most of their driving, it's only at high power such as WOT that they can run lean on E85 but only if you just dumped E85 in the tank and go. FFVs don't suffer from that problem because they're designed to handle the increase in fuel volume needed to run E85 at high rpm and high loads. Even the Ricardo e85 engine got better FE on E30-E40 and still had more power than Gasoline Source: Ricardo Experimental FFV engine

With E85 the low end torque can be better on a high'ish' compression engine. But that's a big if and only if the ECU reduces knock retard for higher octane fuel.

Lyon[Nightroad], you got me. What you said was massively easier to understand and you come across as vastly more knowledgable. But E85 is not that much more resistant to detonation than Premium Gasoline when the intake is heated above normal operating temperatures such as during Motor Octane Testing. When it can cool the intake air is when it really shines and the cooler intake temps help it to resist detonation better. It's not just resistance to Detonation it's the higher latent heat of evaporation both of which are largely thanks to the high oxygen content almost 33% by volume.

 

The problem with ethanol is http://www.ewg.org/files/2009/ethano...hite-paper.pdf . I agree that its a cheaper racing fuel but the water need to make and to re tool all the cars is not gonna happen. They did this E15 as a stimulus program but it back fired. http://www.ascension-publishing.com/BIZ/EWG-E15.pdf


http://www.crcao.com/news/Mid%20Leve..._Mar2011_1.pdf People are going to have problems even if the car is new than 2007. From tank to tank the condition will change 1 moment pass and then a problem.

I would rather look at engineering sites with real data than the government trying to push a agenda using the media.

 

Allch Chcar

As someone who actually uses E85 routinely, let me reassure you that you have no idea what you are talking about.

You think it is some sort of be all end all solution and that is adorable.

You also came into this thread pretending to swat down generalities and then went on in the next breath to say that E85 makes more power with better economy in terms of both volume used and cost (in spite of actual cost before subsidies and incentives) hands down.

Now you are just flailing.

Go buy a piggy back, UEGO, EGT and some injectors then play around.

 

I don't mean to use an appeal to authority here, but DSM is not here to steer anybody wrong and I've NEVER (what a tragic word to forget the first time) caught him talking out of his ass like I do from time to time (which I try to promptly point out my error later)

 

Thanks man, I appreciate that. I refrain from speaking on topics I am not experienced with. I would never intentionally mislead someone, I only want to help the community.

I genuinely like E85, as I have said a couple times in here there are more than a few applications where it is the perfect fit. Others not so much. I have been using it now for almost 9 years in personal vehicles, those of friends and clients. Sometimes in blends with other fuels. Not just gasoline either.

It is cool stuff, but by no means a solution to our problems nor is it economical. You must use more.

Running at stoich on E85 is 9.85:1AFR, stoich on E10 Gas is 14.13:1AFR. This is an inescapable fact.

That is all.

 

I've been looking for more info on E85 and found this http://www.eau.ee/~agronomy/vol08Spec1/p08s124.pdf.

 

Needs more popcorn.

 

With lots of butter.

 

I like a little bit of salt on my popcorn too.

 

Nope, quote me if I said that. I said E85 can make more power. It always takes more fuel by volume. Tends to use less BTU per mile. And the cost per mile varies! Especially now when E"85" is still selling for $3.39 a gallon with Regular Gasoline at $3.75 .

If you responded to what I actually said and not a red herring, I might feel slighted by your lack of respect for my knowledge. And bring something new to this discussion while you're at it . Arguing over the same facts becomes old fast.

I don't doubt your experience at all . I'm arguing with your factual knowledge if anything, which is not of grave importance but it does matter. And also some of your test results, but that is just friendly discussion about methodology .

I'm still hoping some people will share some personal results with the Fit's 1.5L from comparisons . All of the E85 to Premium comparisons that I've seen weren't done with a A-B-A format and could have been more, I don't know, scientific?

 

You cannot run E85 in a stock Fit. There is nothing factually incorrect that I've posted and you know nothing of my methodology.

Be gone troll. If you had any credibility to begin with, it is far gone at this point.

Go find another forum to threadshit on.

 

For those of us who have performed dyno and fuel efficiency tests on both E85 and low octane gasoline, alcohol blends are less powerful and less economical, even with subsidized costs. And worse, when supercharged intakes are used there is only a quarter or so more compression available with E85 compared to straight 87 octane gasoline and that resulted in almost the same power but not quite. Fuel consumption was much greater to get that.
You can talk about vaporization of E85 better than isooctane all you want but the heat of combustion is all that really counts. It it won't burn with more BTU output then there's no mkore power unless you can cram a lot more fuel and oxygen in the combustion chamber. And you can't.
BTW ethanol hass a heat of combustiomn of 12.000 Btu/lg, gasoline 19,000 Btu/lb. Even 15% ethanol blends have an energy available of 17.95 Btu/lb. Compared to 19,000 ethanol loses even with government subsidy from our taxes on gasoline.

 

Who wouldn't force more fuel in? It's really a requirement. It'd be senseless to play with E85 if it wasn't going to be used at stoich or richer.



Now even I'm confused here. Everyone sane is going to inject enough fuel to run at the optimum afr. So comparing btu/lb or btu/gal isn't entirely useful. maybe btu/cfm@stoich? Adjusted for the Stoich AFR difference between fuels I see E85 and E0 put out roughly the same power (btu's) per stroke or rather per unit of air (on paper E85 'appears' slightly higher).

So assuming you are refering to compression of the intake charge and not the actual CR of the combustion chamber, 25% more compression (boost) without knocking seems, on paper, like you would be seeing some gains, assuming you are running that E85 at the appropriate AFR.

 

Lyon, This should explain it http://web.iitd.ac.in/~pmvs/ICengines/paper15.pdf. Its 22 percent ethanol like in Brazil. I have problems with ethanol but because of the higher octane they will raise it to 15 percent or more after they work out the problems.

http://www.sca.com.co/bajar/Etanol/M...0mezcladas.pdf

 

I am enjoying these articles.

 

SB always has some good ones. We don't post most of them because we don't feel like page after page of flamewar diluting the point.

That and most of them are heavily technical. We can start CC'ing you. I know that's right up your alley!

Did I ever give you my access info to the "vaults?" I know SB has them.

 

I'd certainly appreciate anything useful you've read. I've got the 'operating system' part down of my methodology but I need more data! Not that it can't be found by itself but it's nice to read something good without scrolling through 10 pages of crap first.

 

Is there any topic in particular you want to start with?

 

How about something I think I understand but is probably more complicated than I imagine: the causes and remedies to detonation/preignition in boosted applications. Sure I understand AFRs, IATs, CR, Exhaust Scavenging (not really applicable FI via turbo), EGT, etc. in general principle but I'm sure there are other factors I haven't begun to analyze and hard numbers to back up sweeping generalizations.