Edit: Dealer says I can't claim warranty on this... should I try? What about the malfunctioning warning lights?

Anyone selling a GE8 long block??

Got on the freeway today and the engine was rattling. Drove it over to the dealer and they pulled the dipstick...empty???

Okay, that's very odd.

I ask them to check out the 'lost motion springs' recall and do some routine maintenance (maintenance minder at 10%).

Get a call 2 hours later, turns out my engine's fried from lack of oil. What the hell?

Never saw an oil pressure indicator light, nor a check engine light...maintenance minder still at 10%. What the hell happened?

Now the dealer says it'll be $8,300 for a new engine, maybe less for a used engine. I've searched up ebay for GE8s, all around $1,000-1500 shipped. Not bad.

I'm upset because of the money, sure...but I'm really upset because I love my car. I do all my maintenance myself and I'm kicking myself now for not checking my oil sooner.

I can't believe I had no warning...has anyone else had their oil pressure indicator malfunction?

I'm still under 60,000 (59,000 miles)...would anything at all be covered by the powertrain warranty?

I'm prepared to suck it up and fork over the cash, but I'm just trying to figure out my options.

Damn it.


--
Stephan
2009 GE8 Sport
Orange County

 

First time I've heard that one.

How did all the oil get out, or did someone forget to put it in there??

Warranty is certainly not going to help you, curious about no red flags popping up.

 

wow. i really enjoy how you have contradictions in your statement.

i have to agree it does suck but, Honda will not honor your powertrain warranty due to owner error. im not so sure about hondas but, some cars dont throw any indicators when you have no oil in the engine. i once saw a guy walk into a repair shop telling the mechanic his car(passat 2.0T) was running hot and when they pulled the dip stick the damn thing was bone dry.

if you love your car so much why is your maintenance minder at 10%? Also, its your carelessness that got you where you are now.

enough lecturing, just look for a used engine through all the salvage yards and when you find a cheap and decent condition engine have a reputable local mechanic swap out the engine for you. it will be way cheaper than the stealership rape quote.

 

How often do you check your oil level?

When was the last time you changed the oil?

We do have the responsibility of checking the fluid levels on a regular basis
but how to document that as definitive proof you did check the oil I have no idea...
other than dated photos of the level on the oil stick.

 

People always talk trash about taking cars to dealers for routine maintenance, but in this very case I guarantee if you had regular service history with a Honda dealership that dealership would go to bat for you to get that engine warrantied. The very first thing any district Honda warranty rep asks is "does the vehicle have service history with your/any Honda dealership?'

I say this because I work at a dealer, and I see stuff get "goodwill warranty consideration" which can cover items "out of warranty" anywhere from 25% to 100% covered with zero out of pocket to the customer.

I don't think the dealership is doing enough in this case IMO. Sure the dipstick was "empty" but HOW did that happen? Unfortunately you cannot hold anyone accountable for the oil level if you do your own oil changes.

Hondas can and will BURN OIL. You have to check your oil regularly. I hate to say this too, but I think 5,000 mile oil changes on 0W20 motor oil is absolutely STUPID. Honda is setting us up to fail with these ridiculous maintenance schedules. If one were to follow the actual owner's manual/service book that comes with the car we'd have broken ass cars at 100,000 miles. Actually read the schedule and it's retarded.

Anyways sorry for the rant. I'd say call another dealership and see if they might be more inclined to try and get some warranty coverage.

The dealer its at now is probably banking on you paying out of pocket, so why would they consider warranty when it pays about 1/2 the value of what "customer pay" would net them?

Play some hard ball. Tell them you want them to look into "goodwill consideration" and see what they say. If you've already admitted that you might have not put enough oil in, etc. then you might have zero recourse here.

If I'm your service advisor (that's what I do for a living) and you came to me and said "look man I change my oil every 3000 miles, and I do not expect to have to check it all the time, because it's a Honda" and that "there's no way Honda quality means $8,000 for an engine at less than 60K." I'd say you've got a valid point. Once you start making them see your side of it they might be more inclined to help you. If they feel you will tow it out and have someone else do the job then they will start scrambling to warranty the work, even if they don't get paid as much as customer pay. I'll warranty stuff all day rather than let it walk out without making anything. Some dealerships don't pay advisors/managers on warranty repairs - my dealer does, so I could give a damn if warranty pays it for you. I really would not let you walk out instead of getting something for the warranty job.

BTW:

As far as the engine tiself goes it should be covered under the 5 year/60,000 mile warranty coverage unless your dealer is just being assholes about this. Unless you admitted to abusing the engine or neglecting it badly then I'd say they've screwing you.

Good luck. I hope this doesn't become a regular issue like all the last gen Civics with their CRACKING ENGINE BLOCKS in which Honda pays for when they split. I can just see the new "hidden" recall:

"TSB 11-120 Fit engine loss of oil pressure/seizing"



P.S:

I'm going to check the Honda flat rate time for the engine and get back to you. My dealer takes warranty flat rate time and multiplies it times 1.7, so as the labor hours start to pile up the customer pay rate gets much higher than warranty time. I'll bet the warranty rate for a longblock is only like 12 hours (like the late model Civics with self destroying engines) whereas customer pay is probably being billed at 20+hours. Ask them how the pricing breaks down.

 

There's a slight chance that pharaohdactyl forgot to refill his oil but Honda should not ASSUME that! AND for god's sake with what I call the "Hondaglyphics" (endless dash symbols) not ONE of them will tell you if you have NO oil pressure! There's an explanation for this and I'd (Honda ought to also) like to know what it is.

 

B18C5-EH2, +rep!
great insight here OP read this and don't let the stealership take you for a $8.5K ride, This work can be done for 1/3 of the price quoted w/low milage engine.... And how did you run completly out of oil (palm 2 head many times!) I do my own work too and have always checked the oil and it's always right on the full mark. Also most of us who beat on these lil 1.5L engines and doesn't change every 3-5k is nutz! I don't think that a small Hi Rev'n engine should go 10K between oil changes unless ya what to rebuild the engine in 100K.
Big Mike

 

something simillar happened to me back in august. cruising on the highway, doing a good clip, on a steaming hot day. windows down, listening to tunes. pull out to pass someone, and the car shutters a bit, i look down, and my CEL is on. i pull over, and the car is dead. won't turn over. (i own a 09 fit sport btw). this all happens on a saturday, of a long weekend(monday being a holiday) so, i call honda roadside, and they send a tow truck. tuesday rolls around, my engine is toast. fan in my rad let go, sheered a hole in my rad, and pissed the coolant out, and seized my motor. i get all my work done at honda(this maybe the difference) and i know the staff there quite well. i got a complete engine replacement, new rad and all. the only thing i had to fight for was my rental. they had my car for 2 weeks.

when i got my car back, i had it for less than 24 hours, and as i pull out of a parking spot, theres my oil, all over the road. back to honda it goes for another 2 or 3 days. seems when they put my motor together a seal didn't set right.

everything was taken car of for me, and i didn't have to spend a dime except for my phone bill, which was racked up from all the phone calls

so this story to me, isn't surprising. you gotta find out where the oil left from. this doesn't sound like neglect on your part. with your car being new(i'm assuming 2nd gen?) the motor should be under warrenty regardless of what happened unless you have a CAI, and even then you should still get one. call honda head office, and tell them your issue. i had to call honda canada a few times to figure out wtf was going on, and all that.

best of luck to you man. i went through something similar and it isn't fun. its pretty depressing, and frustrating and stressful all in one.\


*edit* just one more thing, there was no indicator of loss of coolant in my car or anything when i pulled over. just my CEL.

 

I check my oil on fill ups, usually every other to every third time (when I don't check my oil, I check my lights). My Fit has never used any oil, but I still check it. Did you forget to check your oil? You'll remember next time!

 

Hey, leave the guy alone, nobody here knows when the oil disappeared, could've happened in the last five miles.

And the MM wasn't at zero, technically not due for an oil change until then.

 

The oil went somewhere or was never there in the first place. There is an oil pressure 'idiot' light. If it didn't come on to warn you it's either a circuit fault or a bad pressure switch. Even if the OP missed filling the crank - it should have warned him of his mistake. Starting a car with no oil in the crank will sound a whole lot more than the 'sewing machine' sounds some have noted re the LSM recall work being questioned. That would have been the first clue - the raw clatter of metal on metal. Scary to think he might have driven off with that racket going on...

If the oil pressure sensing components could be traced as being the problem there might be a chance Honda would step up, but I'm thinking that would be a hard sell.

If it some how sprung a leak there's definite evidence that a close look at the engine would discover.

My old Alfa sprung a leak when a bolt dropped out of the extended head assembly - that's on a unique Italian motor produced in 1969. Left a big puddle of oil under the car. Can't imagine it happening on the L15 motor, however.

B18C5-EH2 bring us interesting insight - there might be hope, but cracking blocks are a scary thought for all of us......

 

I'm on Honda's network and as I suspected a shortblock replacement pays just 8.9 hours, but if they suspect you really did run it low/out of oil then an entire longblock from pan to cylinder head/camshaft will be in order, in which case it pays even less labor - just 6.4 hours!!!

...so taking my dealer's formula for customer pay an entire longblock engine assy should pay around 11 hours in labor. That still seems low for an engine swap, so they will likely tack on 1.5 here for realigning the vehicle, maybe a few more here and there for "component transfer" which is fair enough.

Ask them exactly how the labor breaks down, what their hourly rate is, etc. This is something you won't want to hear, but some dealerships also use a "grid labor sheet" in which the FIRST labor hour is billed at their posted "hourly rate" yet each add'l hour gets more and more expensive, meaning, you can't simply take $x.00/hour and multiply it times the labor hours quoted. This leaves room for "discounts" which dealership customers so dearly cling onto.

The grid labor is stiff - it only applies to repairs usually, not so much scheduled maintenance, because dealerships will price their hourly rates low as shit to stay competitive with quality independent shops. I know my dealer prices labor hours as low as $70.00/hour to make those 30/60/90K and brake services as cheap/cheaper than my former independent shop I worked at for 11 years!

Under no cirumstances would I walk back in there and toss $8K at them. No F'ING way bro. I'm telling you this from the other side of the counter too. I'd appreciate you not telling your local dealer I told you any of this, as in, don't name names and all if you don't mind.

First of all I don't write service like some people - my first thought of you as my customer would be "how in the hell can I help this poor guy out?" the next guy is probably thinking more like "I can hook this guy for $8K for his own stupidity" which IMO is horseshit.

Let me ask you this:

What area do you live in?

Are there numerous Honda dealerships, or one in town?

Have you even talked to the service manager?

Have you requested he speak directly to the district/zone warranty rep?

Have you asked anyone about 5/60K coverages, or possibly "goodwill consideration" even though this IMO is clearly a 5/60K issue.

Let us know what's going on. I'd like to also know if the engine is completely seized, or if it will run at all, even if very rough?

 

Thanks B18 C5 - learned a lot from your posts.


Every high mileage Honda I've owned has burnt oil except for my S2000 **Knocks on wood. With my Prelude (220K and still gets tracked on roadcourses) I would check oil at every fill up.

Interested to know your driving habits? Initial break in for the car?

 

You're right, that's about twice as often as you should be changing it. The 3000 mile oil change is a long outdated standard. Not only is it a waste of money, It actually does more harm than good.

 

So you read that whole thing and still managed to make that wide sweeping statement at the end of your post?

One size fits all answers do not belong in oil discussions. Good Link, so + rep for that, but you certainly took some license with your interpretation.

It is a complex subject, dependent on a ton of variables. Just keep that in mind. There are extenuating circumstances where 3k intervals (or even less) would be advisable.

Only one of the tests cited with the intervals varied from 3-15k had before and after testing performed. And in at least one of the other tests, the tribochemical composition was consistent at 3k with the findings at 12k.

Sludge is going to be dependent on several things, one of which is if there exist engine specific hot spots that do not drain well. The others include the type of fuel, service duty, climate, oil type etc.

 

Actually, I think you have misunderstood the SAE statement. This part:
Is talking about the standard industry wide tests performed on oil before it is approved for sale. It is not about these particular SAE study results.

Suggests the improvement escalated continuously from 3000 to 15000 miles when the oil was finally drained out.

Longer than 12000 to 15000 miles.

The tribochemical film and oil friction and wear rate are two separate issues. While the tribochemical factor remained consistent, the oil wear rate improved all the way to 15000 mi.

The only extenuating circumstances in a normal modern street vehicle that would require 3000 or less would be where an engine has a problem (damage, wear or poor design) that causes it to contaminate its oil rapidly or has been modified. In which case all standards go out the window anyway.

 

So what ever happened with this?

 

Just some of my own experience (own 2 Fits and do most of my own maintenance).

First, he said that his MM was at 10%. No way that the engine would have lasted this long if he "forgot" to put oil after his last drain. An engine will not go 90% on the MM before failure. Are we saying he also didn't reset the MM now?

Also, I am sure those of you who change their own oil have noticed the "Red Oil Indicator Light" when first starting their car after an oil change. The light only stay on 3-5 second, but it clearly notices a "lack of pressure/ oil" until the pump gets it flowing.

If he was empty, at any point, I would have expected that light to illuminate.

Also, on both my Fits, I use Pennzoil Platinum Full Syn. 5w-20 and neither burns a drop. I am still full when I change the oil with the MM at 15% (around 10K miles give or take).

Note: When I first bought my 2009 Fit, I changed the oil at 5K and then again at when the car reached 10K miles. Felt weird to change oild with 50% still showing on the MM.

Old habits are hard to break, but I figured, Honda clearly puts in writing to follow the MM (and that's with dino oil) so there is no way that I'm not in the safe zone following that advice while always using full syn. oil.

Put it this way, if I was the O. Poster and my engine fried with no oil light going off, my MM at 10% (showing that it clearly had oil in it to last that long), and was under the 5 yr./ 60K mile warranty and Honda refused to pay for a new engine, well it would be the last Honda anything I or my family would EVER own.

Unless the O. Poster is leaving out some details, Honda better pony up.

 

Considering the OP never posted again, I'm inclined to think he left something out.

I wonder... how often (if at all), people go around stealing motor oil?

Get under the car, open up the drain bolt... a few minutes later, disappear.

 

I'd like to share some info about the oil pressure lights if I could.

The oil pressure system works like this: assuming fully warmed oil, the oil pump generates the lowest pressure at idle and higher pressure as it spins faster, to a point. It will get to the relief pressure and a valve will bypass some of it to keep it at the set pressure.

On older Hondas (and I don't see why they'd change it on new ones) the warm relief pressure was in the neighborhood of 65-80 psi, and the engine would have this from middle-high rpm on up. Pressure at cruising speed would be in the 30s, up into the 40s psi on the highway.

However, at idle, the pump would keep about 10 psi of pressure in the system. Because of this the pressure light would have to trigger lower than this (typically 5 psi or less) to avoid the light flashing and scaring drivers during hot summer red lights.

This is why when if you're going down the highway and when your oil runs out your engine's pressure drops from 40 psi down towards zero, the engine will starve for oil for a few seconds as it damages all the rod bearings before the pressure drops low enough to trip the light. Sorry fact but that's the way it tends to go.