I haven't cruised vwvortex forums for a while, but there were always raging threads about whether build location was an indicator of vehicle quality.

Personally, I think the different factories just have good runs and bad runs from time to time.

My '99.5 New Jetta has the ailing DRL (door lock module) that all the '99/'00 vehicles are suffering now... $400 to fix, I read

 

I know that there is a certain amount of "local content" for these factories. For example, my Brazilian made Golf has several parts, including the struts which hold up the hood and hatch, have "Brazil" printed on them. Lots of the "small things" like glovebox and armrest hinges breaking are probably locally made.

I did an informal poll awhile back on the Vortex and TDIClub.com about who has had glovebox door problems, and while a great number of (Mexican made) Jettas and 4-dr Golfs had problems, hardly any German or Brazilian made 2-dr Golfs/GTI's had the same problem. I'm guessing that is only one example of the differences.

VW's biggest problem by far is the dealers. We VW fans have a saying... If you want to keep your VW running well for a long time, KEEP IT AWAY FROM THE DEALER!! I can't tell you the horror stories I've both read, and experienced, at VW dealers. We owners have had to set up our own network of "gurus" to work on our cars. It's fun, but the average owner isn't going to do this, and shouldn't have to. The dealer network is the only reason I'm not going to buy the new Jetta Sportwagon turbodiesel when it comes out later this year. And this is from one of VW's biggest fans. Too bad for VW.

P.S. to Xorbe... get on the Vortex or TDIClub.com about your locking problem. There is probably a workaround or simple/cheap fix you can do yourself, or you can find a local "guru" to help you out.

 

A two year old car shouldn't have any significant issues. What really dings VWs are the numerous INSIGNIFICANT issues that compound and eventually make owning them annoying (when under warranty) and/or expensive (out of warranty).

 

the fact of the matter is this:

vw has made really unreliable cars for quite a long time (i would say it really went down hill after 96)

FACT - the Jetta & The beetle made consumer report's LEAST RELIABLE vehicle lists for the last few years.

FACT - no matter WHERE the car is built, it ain't gonna be reliable if you use cheap components-- sure they have the most expensive looking interiors, until the soft rubber starts peeling off the glossy plastic underneath (logic tells you that things typically bond better to matte surfaces) ALSO, cars don't chronically spontaneously combust because of a difference in the way pablo put the engine together as opposed to adolf... audis built in germany blow up just as often as vws built in mexico.

i'm not speaking as someone who has talked to a friend who owned a crappy one... i have attended one of the largest volkswagen & mercedes credit lease auctions in the country every month for the last 4 years -- people from all over the country come to the manheim auction in bolingbrook il to buy the out of lease vehicles to sell at their dealerships-- literally thousands of volkswagens come through every month... ask any used car manager at a volkswagen dealership and i'm sure they'll know about it.

of these 0-5 year old leased cars you would be amazed at the sheer number of engine problems these cars experience, not only have i witnessed several of them burst into flames (in all fairness the number of engine problems in the diesels are significantly lower), and it is almost a guarantee that the rubber on the door sills WILL start to peel off after 2 years (just like it's a guarantee that the printing on the buttons on GM radio head units will chip off within a couple years) -- that's a result of cutting corners, choosing cheap components to get the job done.

i also attend a honda financing auction every month as well, the check engine lights in the VWs outnumber the hondas by AT LEAST 20 to 1. i am not being facetious, this is the truth.

you can flame me all you want, but unless you've worked as a buyer for a VW dealer or a honda dealer, i seriously doubt you've seen more VWs or Hondas than i have. i'm just telling you what i've seen.

people will always eat up volkswagens because they are cute, stylish cars. it's an unfortunate truth, if you're uninformed or know zip about cars, you will tend to choose your car based on more primal criteria, how it looks, how it makes you feel, etc. thats where volkswagens and audis have succeeded...

i do like their diesel engines, if they only built diesels, they'd probably be one of the most reliable car companies on the map, but the fact is their 1.8 absolutely sucks and their i5 is shaping up to be just as dreadful.

sorry guys, i guess i'm a bit jaded... but i would think it's for good reason. if they've made a turn for the better, that will not be known for several years yet, but they are lagging way behind everyone right now on improving their reliability because they were able to float on their old reputation for quite a long time -- the big three were getting absolutely reamed in the press about their reliability while nary a peep about volkswagen was ever spoken (but their cars are just so darn cute!) even though they have consistently had cars ranking in the bottom 10 in reliability rankings for much of the last decade (the beetle is usually fighting a land rover model for the bottom spot)

they've only just now started addressing these horrible quality control problems publicly, though have done little more than pay it lip service... how their current crop turns out has yet to be seen. but i don't put much stock in it, they are having much bigger internal problems right now.

ok. i'm done now.

 

Wabbit if they come out with Diesel in the US. ALthough you would be paying like 10k more for a diesel than for a petrol fit. BUt with a 2.0 50mpg mad low end torque, who could resist?

 

barelyinaudible.... I disagree with very little of what you said. VW's do have many little things go wrong with them. I also agree with what you said about the gas engines. The "2.slow" and the 1.8 seem to have problems, especially with the coil packs (which are under a recall). I also have to wonder about the people who drive the cars. They tend to be younger, clueless people, like you said. How do these kind of people drive though? I've seen posts about "lemon VW's" where they bitch about the fact that when they hit a curb, "the flimsy front valence panel comes right off!". I've seen them refuse to put oil into it when it runs low because "I paid $21,000 for this POS and I shouldn't HAVE to put extra oil in it!". Lots of the younger buiyers rice them up, mod the hell out of them, drive the crap out of them, then complain when they break.

I also agree with what you said about the diesels. I've had virtually nothing go wrong with my car (engine or any "little things") in the almost 350,000 miles I've had it. However, I'm not the average owner. I try to learn everything I can about the cars I own, learn the common problems and weak points, and address them before they go bad. Unlike Honda, VW seems to have a few more of these weak points than they should have. But if you know about them, you can avoid them or fix them easily and cheaply. But like you said, the average VW owner is clueless about cars, and likes it that way.

In the "Adolf vs. Pablo" arugument, take note sometime of which VW's you see that have these problems, and where they are built. I think you'll find the Mexican built ones have far more problems than the ones built in Germany or Brazil. The "little things" are often local content items which does make a difference.

Now, that being said, and this being a Honda forum board, I ask the question...

Can a Honda Fit go 350,000 miles and still hold up well? I'm not being confrontational. I'm asking because I'm here looking for a replacement for my beloved Golf. I'd like to sell it while it's still in good shape and use the money for the down payment on something. The Fit and the Matrix are at the top of my short list right now. The Fit has virtually the same cargo room as my Golf (49.8 vs 49.9 cubic feet) while the Matrix is quite a bit larger while still getting just slightly lower mileage. Any thoughts?

 

lol, so that's why my Jetta armrest button snapped off its hinge.

 

I can't say as though our VW has had any more isuues (significant or insignificant) than any other vehicle we've owned. That includes vehicles made by GM, Honda, Chrysler and Ford. Every single one of them has had minor issues, including my 5 month old Fit which has already had two warranty repairs related to minor issues.

Truth be told, I completely expect something as complex as an automobile to have failures from time to time. As long as the stuff that occurs is not major, I can live with it. I knew going into our VW that they had a reputation for small things adding up. We were okay with that potential issue because we liked other things about the vehicle more than the competition. At the end of the day, it still comes down to personal preference and being comfortable with your purchase.

 

it's not confrontational, it's cool, but you know that is a loaded question, comparing diesel engines to gasoline engines in terms of longevity is a total apples to oranges comparison-- gasoline combustion engines, by their very nature, are much more prone to wear than diesel engines, so could a combustion engine hold up as well as a diesel? probably not, could it reach 350k miles? if the d-series engines of the past are any indication, i would argue that it is quite possible to achieve that with the L-series. the matrix engines are nice, though they are nowhere as polished as the fit's. -- here's an interesting tidbit i learned while looking up some info for my last rant- over the 16 years of it's existence, honda has never had a warranty claim regarding their vtec system... as an owner of several 200k+ hondas, thats just my 2 cents... the highest mileage civic i've seen at the auction was about 645k miles (a 92 EX), and the highest mileage accord i've seen was about 750k (a 90 EX), both were still very drivable too (the accord brought almost $1500 at the block too!) -- i've seen countless 300k+ hondas, and suprisingly enough, there are a bunch of super-high mileage mid 90's GM sedans with 3800's in them... but i digress.

now in terms of the location built; all audis are built in germany, and i could safely say that the number of problems per jetta and a4 are pretty much the same... like i said, i've seen a mim jetta and a german a4 burst into flames (mind you these cars didn't have 80k miles between them either) -- when i talk about reliability, i am speaking in terms of failures of any system, not necissarily fit and finish-- which can vary based on the DAY it was built.

i do also have a problem with people who beat the hell out of their cars and wonder why they aren't getting the kind of longevity others may get-- case in point, i had a friend who switched to synthetic on a 1.8t a4. amsoil claims you can go a year without changing the oil (a very misleading statement since filters are generally the reason you should change the oil often) so on they went, unaware of how much oil the 1.8t engines eat (no matter how well maintained they are) until one day the torsion bearings went out (i believe) and they basically snapped the timing belt (there were a buncha problems, but i don't remember them all... they basically needed a new $4000 engine)... a pretty costly mistake for not knowing enough about the nature of your vehicle (i always tell first time car buyers to AVOID TURBOCHARGED ENGINES AT ALL COSTS, they are VERY high maintenance engines and are also very expensive to repair.) this is precisely the reason mitsubishi set a rev limiter at 4k rpm on the evo... sorry enthusiasts, but the novices ruined all the fun for you. so basically, yea i do agree with you on that-- vw's younger demographic makes it prone to more irresponsible driver neglect, which may skew statistics somewhat- but the quality control problems don't help that... though plenty of morons buy civics too, sometimes i find myself in utter awe of the absurdly stupid things people do to civics i've seen at the dealer auction, but they still manage to keep on going somehow...

 

barelyinaudiable;

i don't doubt your extensive experience...but i don't doubt the few owners who have had trouble free VW's either.


another FACT is that the jetta is now on the reccomended list, whereas the turbo is having more issues...what other types of monstrosities did you witness with it? I had no problems with mine, and i think that you kinda answered your own question with regards to what could be the cause of alot of those problems....the public views VW's as cool hip and cute cars and so a lot of un-savvy car people buy them not realizing how needy they are.....

...how many of those owners cars did you come across? could the number be more than you think?...we'll never know will we?


I think its the general 'long-posting, facts are facts' types of attitudes that are going to keep VW from winning their rep back more quickly...but CR is from the mouths of owners themselves...you mentioned CEL's but enlighten us on all the issues the new civic has had, because it HAS had them. THAT is fact and its reported widely...unfortunately none of these people subscribe to CR either.;)

I just think that VW"s are for a certain type of person....and you can't really get mad at someone for connecting with a car and buying it because of that. at least it still shows that VW can infuse their cars with some personality. Something that honda has only recenlty discovered with the new accord and civic and of course the fit.

(i do like all of honda's suv's though, but suv's as a general rule aren't exactly personality laden, unless you are a cadillac, which would more than likely make you full of yourself.:D )


oh, and its a good thing the MKV did away with all that soft touch rubbery simply wont hold up on the doorsills plastic huh?

 

that's simply not true [edit: i've only seen one reference to it being on the under $25k recommended list, but that refers to bang for your buck and not reliability-- would you care to provide a source?], unless you're referring to something other than consumer reports:

Consumer Reports' Most Reliable | 1 | CNNMoney - for 2007 models

and a quick run to my local walgreens further confirmed my point for 08:

consumer report's 2008 winter car guide
passat - well below average
beetle - well below average
gti - below average
jetta - average
rabbit - above average

unless CR simply recommends cars just because they haven't scored below average, i don't see it.

out of all the cars, the rabbit was the sole car to get above average ratings. the only thing all of them scored above average in was resale value-- i am going by consumer reports because they tend to be the most commonly used reference.

volkswagen was rated 31 out of 36 in reliability rankings -- honda took the top spot.
Toyota is slipping, Consumer Reports says - MSN Money

i'm just saying, you could probably find a statistic that says the opposite, but consumer reports does have one of the largest sample sizes out there. the point i'm trying to make is this, fancy interiors and slick styling is no substitute for reliable cars-- it's almost a no-brainer, but the disparity between the two companies when it comes to quality is quite wide.

-- as far as owner treatment goes, it's easy to dismiss it as having seen cars owned mostly by uneducated car-killers, but after seeing tens of thousands of them run across the block, i wouldn't go that far, many of the cars that i've seen have been in pristine condition, aside from the troubled engine or bad tranny-- it's pretty easy to tell who loved their car and who didn't just by looking at the interior, signs as simple as the carpet's condition, weather it was smoked in and the condition of the body will tell you alot... frankly, most of the cars were pretty well taken care of-- and anyone who has leased a car can attest to the fact that the dealers typically make it a point to make sure you take car of their cars, since the money they'll make selling it at the auctions is based purely on how well you treat it, they won't think twice about penalizing you to high heaven if you do something stupid to their cars...

 

How exactly is reliability measured by Consumer Reports? Does "well below average" mean that, on average, you are going to be left stranded with a significant repair bill, while "above average" means that, on average, you will only be in the shop for scheduled maintenance?

Given that all of the cars are competing against each other, what happens if all of them are over 90% reliable? If the average reliability is 93%, is a vehicle with 91% reliability considered "well below average", where one with 95% reliability is considered "above average"? What exactly is the spread and how does Consumer Reports determine whether the terms used to describe reliability at various points on that continuum, is a reasonable description of what is actually going on?

I sometimes wonder with these things whether we are getting to the point of chewing your kid out because he got an A on their paper instead of an A+ and meanwhile, the neighbour hears you and he thinks the kid flunked.

 

the last issue i looked at of CR in a harris teeter supermarket was the one that is solely dedicated to cars that have been on the market for the past 2-4 years. The jetta was now on the reccomended list for its newfound reliablitly...interesting what you said about the rabbit, because according to CR, there aren't enough rabbit owners out there to properly gauge it, though how the jetta performs is a good indication.

they did mention the not so reliable turbo compared to the 2.5, which according to them again, HAS been reliable.


at anyrate guys, this thread has taken a turn for the worst, as we are no longer talking about the fit versus the rabbit anymore, we are just giving commentary about VW's percived reliability. Sure reliability is a huge factor, but there are many other things we could be discussing with regards to how these cars are similar and how they differ.