First off, i'm a very loyal honda fan. (well and a dubber on the side, but thats for another thread! ;)

But i recenlty read an article on caranddriver about their thoughts on the new JDM civic type r.


Apparently, this car is going to be hitting japan in 08 (i thought it was sooner though?) and they got to mess around with it.

they pretty much confirmed that it nicks the s2k's butt with regards to performance. and its a SEDAN.


but the question they raised was why did honda insist on keeping us in the U.S. from getting our hands on one?

Hondas response?

No one would pay 26k for a civic.

Yes you read that right. they stated that NO ONE in the U S of A would pay 26k for a civic.

C&D then went on to mention how lame they thought this was as the mugen si is msrping for 29K! and this car has very little advantage over the stock si aside from aesthetics. They figured the mugen got the ok go before the type r was launched, but i had been hearing about the type r and its specs long before the mugen ever reared its pretty (but useless) head.

Thoughts? Would you prefer to pay 25-27k for a full on type r or 29 for a mugenized si? Discuss!

 

I would much sooner pay 26k for a R than pay 29/30k for a Mugen.

 

Just my two cents, but I would have to agree with the statement that no one would pay for a Civic costing in the high 20's, regardless of it being an Si or a Mugen.

Why? America tends to be fickle regarding cars, its all about image, regardless of handling, reliability, and speed.

Good example would be Southern California. At $26k+ thats the price of a used 3-Series, Lexus, Inifiniti, and Benz. (Let alone cut into the Acura product line price point) Most people around here would lean to the image car. Its their entry into the bling life, or what ever they want to call it. They will go that route not because its a faster or better handling car than the Civic, but because of the status that comes with the car. Lets face it, the Civic, is just a Civic, regardless of what trim. Unless you are a Honda fan or a car fan, those numbers from the Si or Mugen won't mean anything because at the end of the day, you're still in a Civic.

Honda wants to make money, not just appeal to a small segments of consumers. So while the Si and Mugen would probably sell, they would sell in such few numbers that it would actually cost Honda more just to get the cars out here and find a way to market them.

 

Hasn't that always been Honda's motto though? If you think about it, for the price the S2k isn't even all that fast. But it's a very excelent handling car, and really only shines on a track compared to it's other competitors. All in all it's not a really popular car. Then you have the NSX as well, dollars for dollar it's an incredibly slow accelerator compared to other sports cars in it's price range. On the track though, like the S2k they really set themselves apart from their competition there. So with the S2k and the NSX Honda really has a limited market vehicle. In the same sense that you say people will still mock you for having a Civic at the end of the day, many people will still mock you for having a Honda, even it's a 80k NSX. I think a Type R would do pretty successful, no need for heavy advertising. I could probably count the number of commercials I've seen for an S2k on one hand, but they still sell. Hell even the Mugen Si is selling and that's MSRP of $29k, no advertising for that except for a little blurb on the Honda website if you click onto the regular Si.

 

Very nicely put man, i agree 100%!
P.s-Nice new Sig pic!

 

A Civic SI in canada starts at 26.6K :( oh, and no Mugen option availaible here.

So if you wanted to buy it in US funds using today's currency... 27.5K... any takers?

this just really upset me.... F#CK YOU HONDA CANADA!!!! YOU F$CKING A$$HOLES!

 

being a native californian who know lives on the other half of the country, i understand you...to a point.

even in japan, honda is catering to a very small niche with the type r. same way ford does when putting out a shelby. its the same concept.

the type r isn't going after the 'image' car drivers. well, i guess in a sense it is, but with a car like the type r, only the few who recognize the badge need inquire further. (unlike cars like the type r, i think bmw is riddle with people who drive the 3 series without realizing what a fantastic machine it is, its just the cheapest bimmer they can buy.)



Basically, you have to come into this discussion understanding that its all from a honda enthusiasts point of view. You could essentially tell every vw gti, mazdaspeed3 and impreza wrx driver that they could spend their money on a used mercedes or whatever, but they don't because they are enthusiasts. the type r, much like the si and to a greater extent the mugen si, are for very certain types of peeps.


remember, an sti is still and impreza, a gti is still a golf/rabbit, and an evo is still a lancer. that gives you an idea of how far we can stretch their analogy. the only possible refute to this statement would be that these cars have the performance to back up their looks. well, the type r, regardless of being a civic, can do that as well.


the s2k performs very well for the segment and even though its pricey, it does its job.

i think honda can still bring its very 'honda-like' qualities to the table, but they can still be competative for the price. you can get a mazdaspeed 3 for about the same as an si sedan, and even though i don't feel the driving experience is as pure, the 3, from a numbers standpoint, blows the civic out of the water.

hell, the last edmunds sport compact comparo had a tester saying, 'as much as i like the si, honda NEEDs to bring on a full on type r with type r specific components to run with the mazdaspeed 3.'


instead they gave us a better looking (but hardly performing) limited edition si.

come on honda, we know you got it somewhere.

 

True enough. But from a company standpoint, don't you think you are diluting your own marketshare? You now have to market and support more vehicles (granted the NSX is no mas) which increases your cost, and again at that price point it will potentially eat into the Acrura TSX type-S marketshare. So one has to choose...Civic...or the luxury route (TSX). So even if Honda gets the sale for either vehicle, in the long run they lose, because they invested the money to develop and sell both in the US market.

Im not saying it won't sell, im just saying I don't think it will sell enough to justify the potential for added cost. There is too much competition in the US from other manufacturers for that price point, and the Civic name and image is not enough to carry it over the competition regardless of its performance numbers. Honda in the US has always tried to maintain a very conservative business structure and not compete with others "just because". If that were not the case then Honda would have sold out long ago and started to market a vehicle with a V8 here like Toyota did. Hell just look how long it took them to bring a car with a turbo here (RDX).

 

i wonder how well the CTR or the mugen Si sell in japan and europe. i ask because if they are priced, relative to to cars like the Evo, similarly in european and japanese markets then i could not see them selling very well.

on the other hand, i remember vaguely that in the UK, car insurance is very expensive and based on engine displacement. i also think that fuel consumption, size of the vehicle, turbo or not, had something to do with taxes. would someone please verify?

IF insurance and taxes price certain competitors significantly higher, then i could see why the CTR or mugen Si could sell well relative to the Evo or STi. but if given a choice between a USD 27,000 CTR or a similarly priced Evo, there isn't really much to talk about. i speculate that folks in other markets probably feel the same way too.

 

i would love to see the type R here too! but i'm pretty sure honda has their people working on potential market and whatever other business strategies. it probably just isn't a good business move for them to bring it over here?

 

Guys, I have driven this thing! And it's INSANE! F the Mugen Civic that is going to the US and Canada. It's nothing compared to the JDM Type-R. It is literally breath taking. A buddy of mine and I went to take it for a spin, about 3 months back, and yes it is already on the streets here, anyway, my buddy is more of a straight liner and I LOVE corners. And it performed well in both (mind you the salesman that was with us probably didn't like it too much as he was tossed around in the back ;) )

It retails for about 2835000 yen and change. Without Navi or Radio, add another 150000 yen or so for the optional entry level Navi, and really that's all you really need. The Car is AMAZING! Yokos were designed specifically FOR IT! OEM LSD performs magically! And man, the sounds that you get on all the levels of VTec that you hit! GEEBUS! Is still sends chills up my spine. Also, when I took it for a spin, I was still not accustomed to shifting with my left hand (as I am from Canada, and have shifted with my right hand since I started driving) but man, it was like I was at home, and have been driving on the other side of the car for YEARS! That gearbox is another thing of beauty! The OEM seats! OY! I would drive this thing STOCK for a number a years before I were to mod it.

Anyway, when I picked up my used fit, for kicks I got a quote on one. And with just a single din radio (without Navi) plus taxes and such, it was 3055485 yen, (with a 150000 yen discount, cuz we know the salesman). TRUST ME I WAS VERY VERY TEMPTED. But I'd be paying like about 70000 yen a month for 3 years, even with 800000 yen down. And at this point I just couldn't see myself affording that,... with wife and possible kids coming, as well as the gas these days here (150yen /l for regular, and you KNOW you'd be putting in the premium in the Type-R for 160 yen/l) the Fit just seemed so much more logical and financially made sense, maybe in a few year. But that doesn't stop me from visiting other dealerships to test drive them ;)

But yeah, good god. It's intense, and this one actually HAS torque. I have driven other Type-Rs (Civics and Integras) and NOTHING compares to this thing outta the box. AND it has 4 doors! I haven't driving an S2k yet. Be kewl to compare it.

Here is the official JDM Type R page:
Honda�bƒNƒ‹ƒ}�bƒVƒrƒbƒN TYPE R

And some vids and eye candy for you:
Honda�bƒNƒ‹ƒ}�bƒVƒrƒbƒN TYPE R

The only thing I don't really like outta the box is that rear spoiler. It looks OK, but a little too boy racer for me. I am not sure if it really serves a purpose being the way it is. It probably does though.
A few pix of the one we drove,...

 

Nobody's perfect?

 

rolleyes. ha ha ha.

 

kayjai; amazing! i wish i could claim to have driven it!

 

That car looks sick!!!!

I don't read Japanese, but I managed to dig this graph up of the Civic Type-R Engine power...

So... er....
Roughly 225Hp and 165lb/ft of torque.

 

that interior is almost as bad as the STi's. difference being that the STi has the performance to make up for it.

 

Have you driven either? JDM Civic Type R (probably not) but an Sti?

 

STi, yes. but allow me to make an educated guess here:

265hp vs. 300hp
fwd vs awd (and this is the one that really counts)

the CTR will win if it has

1. a flux capacitor and 1.21 jigawatts, which makes time travel possible, so it can travel back in time and thus log a faster lap

2. that's about it.


lap times don't count for everything when it comes to a road going car, i acknowledge that. i would definitely be interested if the CTR sold in the US for 26k on the road (after tax, tags, mark-up, fees, blah blah blah). but 26k base? absolutely not - it does not represent a sufficient performance to dollar ratio.

 

I saw a $29k honda civic sedan si at the dealer......with a "market value" mark-up, of course.

 

With it's horrible powertrain loss of AWD the 300hp will probably be equal to or under 265 at all 4 wheels. Many STis dyno stock at anywhere from 250-260whp. Sometimes even into the 40s depending on the dynojet. Compared to 265 on a FF platform which would probably be seeing about 245 at the wheels, in a lighter package than the heavy STi it shouldn't be a onesided battle. AWD cars aren't meant for paved racing, it's only effecient in rally, then again FF is not a great racing platform either. But the CTR sells pretty damn good in Japan, where it deals with Evos and STis all the time so I don't think it'd compete too much with them stateside either.