kinda moot though no? since the ctr is pushing less than that?

 

unless you need awd, or rally, or actually do lap races, the ctr already DOES undercut it, by offering anemities that are unheard of on the rs. lets not even get started on the quality of the interior. some people like to drive. other like to drive and be in a pleasant environment. as far as the sky being blue, that just shows your bias. not everyones requirements are the same as yours.

 

your opinions on the r32 further reveal your bias. which, its ok to have one of those, but your sense of underperforming can be easily argued. This car slaloms incredibly fast for how much it weighs and puts ligher weight more expensive cars to shame. and it grips like cat hanging for dear life and its skidpad numbers are around .87g's....with ALL SEASON tires.

thats performance that can't be argued with. besides the MkV r32 is more like a long distance tourer...and its interior is flawless. (again, something an evo guy wouldn't appreciate.)

different strokes for different folks.

 

I like it, but I don't know if I could bring myself to pay even $26K for a Civic. Then again, the Civic has come a LONG way in the past 5 years. But how much is the V6 Accord Coupe 6 speed? Those things are pretty sweet.

I guess it just depends on your taste too. I know a lot of guys that would probably think about it for about 3 hours then go back to the dealer and buy it just because all the modding to the car, which would probably come out to the same price if not more, would already be done.

 

if you are talking about the CTR, then yes, you have a point. But anyone who picks up a civic to put a bunch of overpriced mugen parts that are not all that functional is a bit lame. you could do so much better for so much less. the mugen si goes completely against the sleeper effect real honda tuners go for, instead it embraces the fast and the furious with open arms.

 

eldaino, i respect you, but man oh man -

1. "amenities" on a Type R? seriously man, that's like luxurious and sports car. they aren't necessarily exclusive. but one does wonder "why?" because luxury or amenities miss the point of having a sports car. it's as though someone threw in a free encyclopedia with my XBOX 360 purchase. i'll take it, but i would have bought the 360 at the same price even without the encyclopedia, my gaming experience is no less with or without the exncyclopedia. a supposedly cheap interior as opposed to an amenity-packed interior makes no difference to me if i were buying something that had a type-r or Evolution label.

2. you're using supposedly nicer interior as an excuse. aesthetic appeal is always subjective. i may think that the yaris has the greatest interior of any car ever. others may think me crazy, but my misguided opinion is not wrong per se. if we start talking about Type R's having nicer interiors, and that being a good reason to buy one over a vastly superior performing car, that's when we know we've stopped talking seriously about cars or drivers that take their cars or driving seriously. check out the Dec 07 issue of road and track - the R32 is going for 35k price as tested. i couldn't believe that any sane person would buy that car for any reason. it's below mediocre as a sports car, well below other cars in the price range, but it's got a nice interior and exhaust note. spectacular - marketers win again! and for 35k, one could easily have significantly more luxurious cars that actually have a desirable badge and have a decent likelihood of lasting more than 120k miles.

i still think that the CTR is a terrible buy at any price above 27k, but will sell nonetheless.

 

thats just the thing though isn't it? some people want to go on and on about how an interior is 'nice' to them, but there are just some things that you can't overlook, and that generation lancer was horrendous with regards to interior materials. (not so much anemities, which are just cool to have.) all it takes is eyes and a decent sense of touch to understand.

its pretty much understood that the type r offers great performance...a classic well finished honda interior is the icing on the cake.

I'm not using it as an excuse, because the typer r (as its been pointed out) has no problems selling in markets where cheap evo's can be had as well. Its just a matter of fact point of thing.


you actually answered your own argument, if the yaris (or evo or whatever car you want to use for the sake of the illustration) then would your opinion really be misguided?

 

well if interior quality is something that can't be overlooked, how about the night and day difference in interior space, all-weather multi-surface funtionality.

my point is this - differntiating between sports cars using interior quality makes as much sense as saying that the dodge SRT-4 is superior to the corvette ZO6 because the dodge has a real trunk and seats four people. and the really bad part about judging cars by whichever has the more nicely appointed interior is that it is, no matter what, subjective. at least we can be objective in saying that the SRT4 can haul more people and stuff. but even being objective in this regard still misses the point - we're talking about sports cars, not luxury interiors, not family movers, and not daily commuters. i'm not against having a nice interior, but does it really matter?

that's where we're drawing the difference here. keep your nice interior, which in a honda, isn't all that great anyways. i'll take objective performance, and i'll always begin the conversation with 1. price 2. performance 3. potential for performance

just because other folks are buying it doesn't mean i would buy it especially if it does not represent much value vs. its peers in any of those areas.

i still agree, the CTR, or an ITR, would sell like hotcakes. the SRT4, however, would still demolish it.

 

Don't forget reliability... on brand name alone Honda is light years ahead of Mitsubishi in that department. That and Mitsubishi was desperate enough to go into background checks on Evo owners looking for warranty repairs to see if they've been racing in the car... isn't that the whole point of an Evo? More things to go wrong on such a high-tech car like the Evo, that and the turbo lag.

 

x2 on arise in fury's post.

the srt4, be it the caliber or neon, is a horrendous looking and god awful handling machine, i don't car how fast it is. i've never been one to respect the big 4cyl big turbo formula. but even then, the evo and sti are different beasts, as again, any srt 4 has never competed with them. (dodge even stated that their most direct competitor is the mazdaspeed 3 and gti.)


what advantage does the evo have with regards to interior space? you realize the type r is a four door right? all weather multi surface function-ality? ok, but not with those nice summer tires they usually come equipped with. all surface functionality? who takes their evo to the woods? how many evo drivers actually rally? (or even know what wrc is for that matter?)

mind you that this whole conversation has gone way off topic but my point was never to differentiate sports cars based on their interiors. in the same vein that all this is subjective as you said, i was just pointing out differences and this is a point for the civic as something like that would matter to me. we live in a world where most people after the best bang for buck are not buying brand new cars and comparing them as stock, they are out there building monster ex-economy hondas and spending very little compared to what others have paid to suck out that same performance.

but discussing the new type r IS discussing a stock car and with that and how its positoned to the market, includes how people view the car as a whole, including its interior. i've got buddies who have souped up hondas and they like you, don't give a crap about the interior, which kinda sucks, because its one of hondas calling cards and proof that you can have your cake and eat it to. its sad to see the big h go down as just a shell that is used for moving people quickly but whatever.

my point is that when comparing the slew of knew entry level sport compacts, you have to take the car as a whole...value is out the window when you have a niche vehicle like the type r, because like many others have realized, if you want to be the fastest, your better off saving you money and fixing up your crx or whatever. so that means that even in its respective class, the type r many not be a real value or best bang for buck, but thats not what we are talking about. we are talking about how honda has given us the short hand again.

this wasn't suppossed to be about what value or what kind of performance the type r offers that makes it so much better than everything else, because being the niche vehicle that it is, it will cater to a certain few and only get envious looks from other hondaphiles.(even that is subjective, because you have to remember the type r DOES actually carry a strong level of performance with it as it has already been pointed out.) And to some people thats nice. it may not be for the evo whore but who cares? its all subjective remember?

 

i definitely recognize that it's subjective - that's my whole point. when you talk about an interior or how ugly the SRT4 is, we delve into the realm of subjectivity. anyone can post anything about that, and while some opinions are generally agreed upon, it is by no means definitive.

certain objective things, like price, track data, reliability data - those are a good way to make an argument for whatever your viewpoint because we're actually talking about something concrete.

i totally forgot that the CTR is a 4 door, my appolgies.

ever drive a FWD spiritedly when it's wet out? ever put even just all-season tires on an AWD and go out in the snow? these, to me, are lightyears more important than an interior. and these are clearly obvious whether the car is box-stock or otherwise.

i understand your point referring to the CTR as a niche car, but that does not mean it shouldn't be scrutinized based on price. the SRT4 is a niche car, too, but wouldn't sell well if it were overpriced. the difference is that the whole Type R thing has a lot of hype and ends up drawing much more price than i rightfully think it's worth. alas, the end judgement on what item X is worth is ultimately based on who pays what amount for the CTR.

but you did ask at the end of your original post if one would pay 25-27k for a type R over a mugen, to which i would again say, 25k out the door? sure would. but something more realistic, like let's say 29k out the door? good gosh no, even for a full on type r. this is, ultimately, my subjective opinion based on a few physical facts (FWD in particular, followed by unimpressive power compared to vehicles in the same range, and least important, middling potential if one were to throw a bunch of money at it) and a price range that i think the CTR could potentially go for.

 

true enough. but now that i'm a honda owner myself, NA response really means nothing if you're only getting the sound but not the fury.

 

Interesting thread even though I have read much all of this before with just slightly different reference vehicles.

So here is what I have been able to ascertain based on what I have read, expeienced (personally), and have seen.

1) when there is a heritage to a vehicle many people buy into it as they either appreciate it for what it is, as there is a set level to base it off of, or they feel a part of that heritage because they bought into the franchise regardless of model level. With maybe hopes of upgrading.

2)It is indeed a HONDA! And a great many people appreciate them for reliability and a consistency that they are accustomed to. With many owners its about daily survivorability (like that one?) It also has to do with comfort zone and practicality, a difficult balance on many sport oriented endevours. I do recall a couple years back that the S2K was the most reliable sports car.

3)Having said all that about heritage my local dealer has had the Mugen Si on the lot since the day it came out here...and its still there...same one! (I have asked) and the darn rotors are a rusty as could be imaginable...not the lil rust after it rains we are talking fluffy accumulated rust. But they usually have a mark up on vehicles that has to be seen to be believed!!!

4) Much of this can be easily seen (albiet in a smaller arena) in the marketing and markup of the Fit (base vs sport) and what will undoubtedly come full circle when the NEW Fits hit the US. Especially if we get the sportier version.

5)Last but not least even in this day and age price can falsely endorse and identify a vehicles physical/performance value (not just monetary).

6) As much as I am bummed that Honda doesnt give us all the vehicles that the rest of the world gets, im pretty happy that atleast they are starting to. A trend that I think will become very strong in the next 4-7 years. Many American companies (as well as most others) still sell many of thier interesting and sought after vehicles overseas.

7) Once again personal IDENTITY.