I wouldn't hint at a valve check. I would demand to have them adjusted to spec. How many miles are on the car?

Besides this I would pull the coil packs off the spark plugs to check their condition.

 

Lord, help this guy. Any dealer that told you Hondas have hydraulic lifters has NO business working on your Fit. They are mechanical and do need adjustment with wrenches and thickness gafes.
Don't have my code book with me but the clutch pressure switch sonds bogey to me,
I would not go so far as to say the valve clearance is the problem though it could be. I would more likely want to check the idle circuits, particularly throttle return if the shuddering occurs when the throttle is released quickly or the cold idle circuit if the idle isn't stable during extended warmup which I put at top top of my list..You need to talk to a good dealer who knows how to use Honda's ECU program check.
PS you're not pissed, youre pissed on.

 

Yep it happened again... Mahout responded faster and said it better than I ever could... There is more going on with the car than they are aware of or want to admit if they are.

 

The fit has about 68k on it.
5th day with my fit from the dealership.

06/26/2011 - This morning I pulled out of my driveway and stopped at the first stop sign, then I started to feel the familiar shake and died like it was my first time driving a MT (my fit is an AT btw). Unfortunately the service department is closed on a Sunday so I decided to come in right when they open the next day.

Day 3 at the Service bay - Went in and explained the situation to the technicians. I took Fat Ping Cat's advice and demanded that they took a look at the valve. They told me to calm down and let them take a look at it before they make "unnecessary" repairs. Anyway I left it with them and went to work. That day they called me back and asked if I can leave it over night so they can experience the "cold stalls." I obliged.

Day 4 at the Service bay - I called them up during my lunch hour and talked with the tech that has been handling my car. He told me he felt the rough stutters and that he took it to a Honda dealership for them to take a look, and Honda told him it's a throttle body and that Honda is going to replace it free of charge.

*sigh* sorry for the long post but I'm really thinking about declaring this vehicle a lemon because out of the 7 days I've own the vehicle, they have it in their shop for 4 days going on 5 now.

 

I'm just noticing this Topic. I just adjusted valves on our '07 Sport w/60K miles.




While we had no symptoms, the valves DID need adjustment. All were out of spec (the intake valves loose, the exhaust valves tight).


Removing the upper intake was a breeze. An extra step for sure, but it's only a few (12?) extra nuts and bolts. A set of Thickness Gauges like this


makes the job MUCH easier.

While I was in there I cleaned the throttle body and butterfly.


+++++++++

Jay, I wouldn't declare the car a lemon just yet. Hondas always benefit from routine maintenance...and remember, there is both a TIME and MILEAGE criteria for most stuff (Maintenance Minder notwithstanding).

If you just bought a car and don't have any service records, I would do ALL the fluid changes up to that point, with any car I purchased...

 

I can't wait to hear if merely changing the throttle body cures the problem. There are so many things they can do with that change but it surely will recieve the most warranty repayment.
Be sure to tell us.

PS your post is long enough to be accurate and short enough to be complete. good luck.

 

Thanks guys! I just picked up my fit and it seems like it's running well but then again it was warm when I picked it up. I'll let you know the first chance I get once I drive it to work tomorrow. Anyways here's the summery on what they did:

Nissan Dealer's Summery:
Concern Customer reports vehicle stalls when cold -- see previous file
Correction Sent car to Honda

Honda Dealer's Summery:
DRIVABILITY
When engine has cooled off: 2 hrs or so the engine will stall once or twice when put in gear, or sometimes feels rough like engine is about to stall.

Verified engine stalling due to fast idle portion of throttle body: 7-70,000 emmissions warranty.
Diagnosed and replaced throttle body to correct and retested to verify engine no longer stalls cold

Job Parts: throttle body, throttle body gasket.

 

That is a new one on me Jay.... I would have never caught that unless it matched a code on my ScanGauge or code reader... I sure hope you are able to get many miles of driving and fun out of your little car.

 

And they needed to replace the throttlebody for that. hmmmmmm

 

Thanks guys!

The good news is that it's not "completely" stalling out now.

However, the bad news is that it's still feel like it's going to stall out, and it can get pretty violent too! I guess I'm bringing it back to the dealership this tuesday since this is a holiday weekend. I'm just afraid that this is going to be extended pass the 30 days. You guys have any suggestions? Thanks

 

The shop manual has a complete set of procedures and it sounds like they haven't done the 'relearn' required when the throttle body is replaced.

If you can have an independent shop perform a OBD ll check. you can buy a checker for $50 or so almost auto parts stores and its worth every penny.
If it shows P0506 the idle speed is too low so it will be likely the engine wants to cut out when throttle closes at cold starts.

Now for the 'trick'
Any time the throttle body is replaced the ECU must 'learn' the "engine idle characteristics" as described in the idle speed section of the idle speed inspection final procedures.
All this is found in section pages 11-259 and 268.

Yeah, makes no sense to me either; I much preferred setting the cold idle speed with a screwdriver. I presume that the ECU is 'learning' what settings on fuel delivery and timing are needed to keep running at the desired idle speed.

The manual also states that all electrical loads like headlights, radio, a/c etc should be off; (my opinion is they should be at least 'lights on lo beam' to make sure the fuel delivery & timing is sufficient to keep the idle speed up during warmup under load).
An added note, you should monitor a cold start yourself with all headlights on hi beam, radio going and a/c running on coldest setting. If the engine falters when the throttle is goosed quickly and released the cold idle is not doing its job. And if the idle speed is not increased at least some when warming up its not doing its job. Its an important piece of information for the tech.
good luck, glad you got this far. cheers.

 

You're a wealth of information mahout! Thanks a million! Here are some of my findings:

1. In the morning when I shift from P -> D (I back into my driveway, as an EMT, it's a habit ), the engine is still smooth, no stutters, no vibrations, nothing.

2. When I come to a complete stop, the RPM starts to dip, enough to feel a shake, then it fix itself.

3. From the dead stop, when I hit the gas, either gradually or gun it, it will either stall out or does this violent shake and then takes off.

With the engine is under full load, high beams, ac full blast, music full blast, car charger charging, nothing really changed. It still feels the same as if I did not put it on load.

On a side note, I stalled out making a yielded left turn at a green light and almost got hit if the guy in the suv did not slam on his brakes on time, this is becoming a safety issue. I decided to bring it back to the dealership this morning. About 5 min ago, they called me and told me they're adjusting the valves. =] i'll let you guys know how it turns out!

 

Good info; makes me think that relearn process 11-259 wasn't followed. Did you ask him if that relearn procedure was done. My Honda guru says yes it is to let the engine ECU know what it takes minimum to keep running well ass the engine warms up. Its an emission thing.
good luck withsetting the vales..

 

I got my car back 2 days ago and I'm pleased to say that it's a lot smoother, better response, and i can actually feel the pull of the engine. Anyway, here's the dealer's report:

Concern Car continues to stall when cold.
Correction Took it to Honda Dealership /// - relearned IDLE and adjusted valves.

Thanks all!

 

Has same at about 90K. Relaced O2 sensors- seem to have worked!

 

My wife’s 2007 Fit base with 76,000 miles demonstrated the symptom’s mentioned in many of these posts.
From a cold start and being driven for about 30/40 seconds it would stall when stopping for the first stop sign. This was always when the cold engine light was still on.
It would always restart and once the engine cold light went out it would keep running fine.
I scanned it and no error codes showed up.
I read these posts and the suggestion of valve adjustment seemed to be logical.
I went to my Honda dealer and the service tech said it would cost $50 to diagnose the problem. I asked what it would cost for a valve adjustment and he said $125.00. So I said forget the diagnosis and just adjust the valves.
That was yesterday and it solved the problem! Thanks to this forum and especially hans471 for his detective work…

 

Have you considered reading te Fit Maintenace schedule?
PS for the $50 you can buy a diagnostic checker from Advance, Autozone, whatever, and do the OBD II diagnostics yourself anytime. What other little tidbits of Fit maintenance haven't you done?

 

MAHOUT-Did you read what I posted? I did do a scan myself and no error codes. I read this forum and discovered the Valve adjustment issue. The maintainance schedule recommends 109,000 for valve adjustment. I decided not pay the extra 50 for a dealer diagnosis and told them to adjust the valves. Like I was trying to point out to those with similar issues the valve adjustment works for this problem. Thanks to those on this forum I was able to fix the problem without the dealer replacing perfectly good parts.

 

My maintenance schedule says 36,000 miles for checking valve clearance. And most Hondas we get in here need adjustment then. At 109k adjustment is certainly required. Thats too long for the same reason that changing oil at 15k intervals is far too long. Neither valve clearances nor oil lubrication properties last that long.
I did not disagree with resetting valve clearances will end idling problems, only that waiting til 109k miles is not good maintenance. Too often we see that when valves get noisy there is often a burnt valve to replace.
Whren marketing sets maintenance schedules for advertising purposes there will be consequences.

 

Mahout: First, you give a lot of good advice to people here and help many to solve their Fit problems, Thank you for that. Also, I agree 100% on the marketing people getting in the way. In one case a couple of years back Ford wanted their oil supplier to back them on recommending a 25,000 mile oil change interval. The marketing guys thought this would be a big selling point on how good their engines were. The oil company told them they were crazy and would not go along.

Next, many here do not have a deep understanding of some of the fine points of automotive technology that others have spent years learning. So I wanted to point out a few things here so people do not get mislead.

In the Fit manual, the two I have that came with the car, they do not mention a mileage for some services. What they try to do is get people to use the "Maintenance Minder" and follow the letter and numbered symbols as to what service is required. For example, I just did a "B 2" on my '07.

In neither my owner's manual nor my Service History book there anything printed that I can locate that tells the owner to adjust the valves or change the plugs at any certain mileage. In fact, just the opposite. On the each page (at the bottom) of the Service History book it clearly states "Adjust the valves during services A,B,1,2, or 3 only if they are noisy"

The only service that actually calls for plug replacement and valve adjustment is a "4". I am at 87,000 miles and have yet to see a "4" level on the minder. From what I read that number may not show up to around 109,000 miles.

The next thing that got my attention was a reference to valves being noisy being associate with burnt valves. While some may have observed that phenomena the fact is the valves to really worry about are the QUIET one! Valves burn when they can not seat properly. A valve that is "tapping" is seating down against the head. The noise is caused by the excessive gap between the lifter and the camshaft. This reduces power and can even cause wear on the valve stem end or lifter (rocker arm) in some cases. But, the cam is NOT preventing the valve from closing.

The really bad situation is when their is TOO LITTLE gap between the cam and the lifter. In this case the cam and lifter may actually prevent the valve from closing all the way. This is the condition that can result in the valve burning. <Also, as many know, if something like a piece of carbon is stuck between the valve and the seat this can happen also. This is the situation where there will be a larger gap between the cam and the lifter and you will be able to hear a valve tapping noise and have a burnt valve. > Valves need to contact the seat to transfer head they got from the exhaust gases over to the cylinder head. There are only two heat transfer paths for a valve, through the stem up to the guide and from the valve face to the seat. So, when valves are too "tight" (too little clearance) they may not be allowed to fully seat. This results in the face of the valve getting very hot and burning away. The seat will also sometimes burn as the hot gasses leaking past will cut the seat just like a cutting torch cuts steel.

Why does the car stall cold but gets OK when warm? Simple metallurgy. The valves are steel, the head is aluminum. They expand at different rates. When the engine is cold the head is contracted more than the steel valve. The valve may not be able to close fully. This means when cold the combustion gasses leak out resulting in a loss of power on that cylinder. As the head warms up it expands more than the valve and the head actually moves towards the face of the valve allowing it to seat. Now, the miss will suddenly stop. There is still a problem, just the miss that was the symptom the driver noticed most quit. The valve timing is off due to the improper clearances. Engine performance suffers. It is very important that valves be checked, and set if needed, periodically.

My 1999 Accord has never needed a valve setting to be changed. That is highly unusual, I am sure. I checked them periodically to verify this. The problem on my Fit, I am sure, is that they were set wrong from the beginning. This problem is compounded by the fact Honda clearly stated in their manual that owners receive, not to set the valves unless they are noisy until a level 4 service (100,000 miles). This is the issue I took up with Honda.

So, mahout, while you may have a manual somewhere that recommends a 30,000 mile check of the valves, Fit owners do not have privy to that information in the literature that was supplied to them with the vehicle.

My message to fellow Fit owners, and all vehicle owners, is that some vehicles may need certain maintenance sooner than the factory called for in your manual. My other advice given to my many students over the years and based on my professional involvement with the design and building of vehicles is that before you start throwing parts at a car for a performance issue ALWAYS, always make sure all the mechanical systems are working properly. The electronic controls on the engine were programed and tested on dyno and vehicles were the mechanics of the engine were all nominal, that is, perfectly normal. If you have any mechanical system that is not nominal, the computers are at a loss and will make "mistakes". We have a saying, "Garbage in, garbage out". If you give the PCM bad data it will make bad decisions.

I could write a book or two on all the vehicles we have seen over the years where "experienced" techs chased their tails on electronic engine controls only in the end to learn there was some mechanical fault that needed repair. Some common examples were worn cam lobes, non-seating valves, and the weird ones like manifold that were improperly molded and partially restricted inside. I worked in a job where we were involved with the problem vehicles at dealerships. I am talking the cars no one seemed able to fix. There was never a car we didn't get repaired in the end. Along the way you learn a LOT about vehicles and the misinformation techs have about what causes what problem. Many of them don't understand or misunderstand how systems work. So the common practice for some is to throw parts at the vehicle to try to fix it. I can understand their frustration and the position they are in. They get paid to replace parts. If its under warranty they get paid and the customer isn't charged. Due to this all too often parts that are not faulty are replaced when they are not actually causing the problem the owner is experiencing. Working at a car manufacture our studies found the about one third of warranty work involved repairs that did not fix the car. The more telling statistic was that 90% of all the returned "defective" electronic parts had nothing wrong with them.

So, based on many years of dealing with such issues and their solutions I have a perspective that may be different than some. One thing however, my job was to always get to the root of the problem and solve it from there. We needed to know WHY it happened and not just what parts were thrown at it.

So, Fit owners, make sure the mechanicals are perfect before throwing parts at it. And, to mahout, my hats off to you for all your fine work, but sometimes there is another point of view. What you have is not what the typical owner has.

BTW, Honda tells us to "Inspect the idle speed every 160,000 miles". Now, think about this...its computer controlled via an electronic throttle body that you can not adjust. You can clean it....but, the PCM will always attempt to set the idle at the programmed speed. If it can not do this there is an SAE defined trouble code that will set. You PCM is checking your idle speed every time you run the engine, folks.