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It's been stated by some that the valves have a tendency to tighten. I suspect they meant that the valves tighten against the seat (opening less) creating a leaner condition. This could go along with your father's idea, since fuel does pass through the valves rather than directly into the cylinder. Edit: If a lean condition has been created, there should be an increase in the amount of heat generated in the affected cylinders during combustion.
I'd also like to thank everyone here for participating! I'm happy to say that this is a bigger turn-out than expected, and the numbers thus far are really highlighting why there's such division on the issue.
I am trying to remember if this tendency of valves to tighten was reported mostly on the exhaust valves. Not that I have any idea about the heat issue.
Just got my first CEL yesterday. It read as running lean. Happened to coincide with an errand run on my mother's birthday so I didn't read it too closely. Figured since I anti-seized the plugs during my recent replacement, it was prolly just that.
#2 was looser than the rest but still snugged. No indication of blow-by on the plugs or the coils. #4 showed some bluing on the ring where it shoulda been all carbon.. right where the grounding arm thingy attaches. Cleaned off the anti-seize as best as could with a shop towel, torqued dry to 20.
I figured that prolly wasn't enough to cause my first ever CEL since I've had plugs loosen more without throwing a code, so I decided to do more. Got the valve cover off and did a valve lash adjustment. Exhaust on cylinders 1 and 3 allowed my .278 tappet to flop around a little. Intake was all pretty good at .178. Got the stuff cleaned up and re-siliconed, went in and did birthday stuff (there was still cake, flowers, presents, but the decorations were underwhelming)
Today I went and slapped stuff back together, but before doing so entirely I pulled the injectors and blew some techron through them while temporarily energizing. Went over their little fuel holes (there's only 6 holes in each injector!) with a toothbrush in attempt to de-gunk.. not that they looked like they needed it.. but the Fit just hit 100k.
Put some rubber grease on all the rubber vacuum/intake o-rings n hoses to ensure everything sat right and sealed leak-free. buttoned up n started it. No more CEL, smoother revs, less vibration Drove for a half hour, idled for another half (broken up)
Almost forgot the 19mm on the harmonic balancer! glad i dropped a shop towel down there. Noticed the tensioner pulley has a slow wobble, too.. so, more work inbound.
So, I had a CEL come on, drove home (about 1 mile), and connected my BlueDriver. Showed a PO303 code. Read that the common problem was ignition coil so ordered an Hitachi on Amazon. When, the ignition coil came, I changed the ignition coil by reaching in back using the touch method. After I removed the coil, I noticed number 3 spark plug was loose (old coil was discolored). Tightened spark plug by hand and installed new coil. Decided to check the other 3. #1 & #4 plugs were tight and coils looked good. #2 plug was a little loose (not nearly as loose as #3) so I tightened it by hand. Its coil looked good.
Drove around for a while and CEL went out (OK good) and looking at Mode 6 data on BlueDriver, the Cyl Misfire's have all gone down to 0,0 --last 10 weighted avg, last)) So far, so good.
Read about the loose spark plugs issue here and decided to replace plugs and torque the plugs. My existing torque wrenches were too big to fit behind the engine, so I bought a bike torque wrench (that should fit behind the engine so I shouldn't need to remove half the car to get to spark plugs).
Now, I want to get spark plugs to replace the old plugs and install them correctly so will not have issues/blowouts.
My questions:
1) What spark plug is recommended? My local part store has the following showing as fitting or I can order something else online:
2) What is the currently recommended torque? I've read 13 Ft/lb and 20 Ft/lb (are these dry numbers) and using anti-seize. If using anti-seize, do I lower the above numbers by 20% (i.e. 16 Ft/lb instead of 20)?
Sorry to hear about your trouble with this. I'd agree with you that taking stuff fully apart is now worth the trouble. These are the original plugs
The NGK 6774
The torque spec for the plugs which I got from contactingmy old local dealership in Escondido, CA 3 years ago was 20ft.lbs. You should be able to contact any dealership's parts department and get a revised torque spec, and even ask if anti-seize is used.
I use Denso IK22 plugs and the revised 20ft.lb torque
When I last used anti-seize, the plugs came loose within 3 months. It would be a useful point of data if you jot down the day you replace your plugs, which ones you use, the torque, and thread coating if applied. Should they loosen we could have a rough time interval for the stuff used. I intend to do the same since I just cleaned off and re-torqued my plugs on Nov 27. They're reused plugs though, so thats another factor to add to the list.
I'm thinking it would be wise to stick with the originals, I know that they have a 125000 mile or something recommended life, but I am planning on changing them more frequently now that I know I can just reach back and do it by feel (instead of removing 1/2 the car to get to the plugs).
Concerning the 20 ft/lb torque spec for the plugs which you got from contacting your old dealership, was that their spec or Honda's? Also, was that dry or with Anti-sieve?
I use Denso IK22 plugs and the revised 20ft.lb torque
.
I searched Denso IK22 on AMazon and it states that these plugs do not fit the Honda Fit (mine is a 2013 base). Do you have a link to the actual plug that you use?
I'm thinking it would be wise to stick with the originals, I know that they have a 125000 mile or something recommended life, but I am planning on changing them more frequently now that I know I can just reach back and do it by feel (instead of removing 1/2 the car to get to the plugs).
Concerning the 20 ft/lb torque spec for the plugs which you got from contacting your old dealership, was that their spec or Honda's? Also, was that dry or with Anti-sieve?
The OEM plugs only need changing every 100k miles, but you're of course free to change 'em whenever you like. Despite their being rated for 100k, spark plugs, like many parts, wear progressively, and since we're not supposed to gap iridium plugs they'll work worse n worse til they're out of spec. Not sure how noticable it'd be though!
The dealership I got my information from made no mention of anti-seize. You'd have to reach out to one for clarification, but I can say that neither NGK or Denso recommend use of anti-seize on the above-mentioned plugs, but they do say to follow manufacturer's instructions.
As for the Denso IK22 plugs, I've been running them for several years on recommendation from superstreet magazine (now motortrend.) Here's a linkto a thread with all the old superstreet articles I could find relating to the second gen Fit. There's one in there covering the mentioned spark plugs.
May be worth mentioning, the IK22s are performance/power sports plugs and only rated for 30k miles.
The OEM plugs only need changing every 100k miles, but you're of course free to change 'em whenever you like. Despite their being rated for 100k, spark plugs, like many parts, wear progressively, and since we're not supposed to gap iridium plugs they'll work worse n worse til they're out of spec. Not sure how noticable it'd be though!
May be worth mentioning, the IK22s are performance/power sports plugs and only rated for 30k miles.
Just curious where you found that they are rated for 30K miles? Here is Denso's site and there is no mention of mileage
Also, I know you have been using them for a while, if they are rated at 30K, when do you personally change them considering they are wearing out progressively..every 20K, 15K or 30K?
Also, not sure if you mentioned it, but do you use them out of box, or do you change the gap?
You know, I'm not certain where I got the 30k mileage. I saw it somewhere, but without being able to point to where, it shouldn't be taken as fact.
With valves and spark plugs my interval is 30k, but I do them sooner if the car starts running lack-luster. I also try to bleed brakes and clutch fluid at least every two years, as well as change coolant, but I'm behind on coolant as there's no way for me to dispose of it properly..
Tranny fluid also gets a drain n refill at every oil change, which is maint. minder based, cabin air filter and engine air filter are annual since moving to the South (the pollen season here is CRAZY. Cars in lots will literally be covered in yellow dust)
Added all that just to portray that I like doing PMCS on this car and enjoy working on it in general. It runs very well and idles very quietly. :} But my intervals may be over-zealous.
If you get them I'd advise at least checking them at 30k the first time. Even if everything is running fine, it'd be nice just to get an idea of how they're holding up.
Thanks, I do all my maintenance too. Like you, I actually like doing it and do it more frequently than needed.
Ordered the spark plugs (should be here this weekend, but I probably will wait till spring to change them. I'm in New England and don't need to do it in cold and snow.
BTW, do you gap the IK22s or just install them out of the box?
One thing I never have done is adjust the valves (the car has 67K miles or so so I will do that this spring, too). Since you have done it frequently, can you let me know what is needed to do it (i.e gasket, sealers, etc)? Once I start it, I need to finish, since I don't have another car to head out and pick up anything.
2) With regard to spark plugs, I would feel comfortable changing the plugs whenever I do a valve adjustment (40k-60k mi. intervals). Keep in mind that you may be asking for trouble every time you remove/install spark plugs just because the metal is so soft and its possible to mis-thread a plug. Not likely in my experience, but possible. On the other hand, if you leave the plugs in for 100+k mi., are you inviting the plugs to seize or get stuck in there? I don't know, and I'd rather not find out.
3) I would check the gap on any spark plug before installing it. No reason not to.
2) With regard to spark plugs, I would feel comfortable changing the plugs whenever I do a valve adjustment (40k-60k mi. intervals). Keep in mind that you may be asking for trouble every time you remove/install spark plugs just because the metal is so soft and its possible to mis-thread a plug. Not likely in my experience, but possible. On the other hand, if you leave the plugs in for 100+k mi., are you inviting the plugs to seize or get stuck in there? I don't know, and I'd rather not find out.
3) I would check the gap on any spark plug before installing it. No reason not to.
Hope that helps.
Thanks, I will tackle the valve adjustment this spring when things warm up. Will order a gasket and Hondabond from Honda dealer.
Per spark plugs, from what I understand, the IK22s are a "performance" plug with a different shape, etc, that gives more power. Since it has a different configuration than the stock plug, I'm not even sure if the standard gap is correct. That's why I was curious if @Pyts checks or changes the gap, since he uses these and has had good results with them.
New IK22 shipment arrived today. I opened a box and the top section is white (no colored bands). The images I have seen on web have bands on top. I.e. like this:
Did I get real or fake IK22s? Bought them on Amazon. Amazon was the Ships From & the Sold By. Just want to make sure that the IK22s I got are authentic.
You know, I wrote up a reply recently commenting on the plug design and raising the same considerations, but didnt submit it.
Those plugs look right. I can't remember the last time I gapped a spark plug. Eh! Two years back, some coppers for a jeep we sold to a friend at cost. A 90s era 2wd Cherokee with an all cast iron straight six.
Never gapped or checked gap on iridiums. Here's Denso: "Before attempting to gap any DENSO Iridium Power spark plug, please review the specification chart in the front of this catalog to verify the factory-preset gap. In most cases your Iridium Power plugs do not need to be gapped. Even with small variations in the factory set gap the ultra-efficient firing power design will compensate for those small variations. Should you decide to re-gap your Iridium Power plug, use extreme caution as improper gapping may damage or destroy the Iridium center electrode or porcelain center."
Like yourself, I figured since the plug is different it would likely have different needs regarding its gap. I've only ran them the way they come out of the box, and the car idles very well.
@Mister Coffee Good post! :} I hope you're doing well, my friend.
I bought my 2013 used with 72,000 miles. I changed the plugs that day and two were loose, one of which could be threaded out by hand. I put new plugs in (OEM Replacements) and torqued to factory 14 ft-lb recommendation. About a month ago at 95,xxx miles I had one blow out so hard it trashed all threads, shattered my coil pack and broke the coil pack connector.
Currently in the process of replacing the head. Only hold up has been waiting on parts. Haven't decided if I will run some blue Loctite on the new plugs along with 20 ft-lb or not. If I have the issue again, it will be my sign to K-Swap, haha.
You know, I wrote up a reply recently commenting on the plug design and raising the same considerations, but didnt submit it.
Those plugs look right. I can't remember the last time I gapped a spark plug. Eh! Two years back, some coppers for a jeep we sold to a friend at cost. A 90s era 2wd Cherokee with an all cast iron straight six.
Never gapped or checked gap on iridiums. Here's Denso: "Before attempting to gap any DENSO Iridium Power spark plug, please review the specification chart in the front of this catalog to verify the factory-preset gap. In most cases your Iridium Power plugs do not need to be gapped. Even with small variations in the factory set gap the ultra-efficient firing power design will compensate for those small variations. Should you decide to re-gap your Iridium Power plug, use extreme caution as improper gapping may damage or destroy the Iridium center electrode or porcelain center."
Like yourself, I figured since the plug is different it would likely have different needs regarding its gap. I've only ran them the way they come out of the box, and the car idles very well.
@Mister Coffee Good post! :} I hope you're doing well, my friend.
Thanks, Good info, I will not gap them.
BTW, are any of the IK22 plugs you have had had all white tops (no blue bands)? The plugs I received today where all white on top (no bands). Was wondering if Denso has changed design.
That's an excellent valve adjustment video. Better than the last I watched.
I want to test out a local shop on new brakes rotors pads etc .. If they seem trustworthy I'll see if they can take on the valves. It's within my skills, but tbh, without a garage not something I'll enjoy (despite the satisfaction).
air box can be finangled out without removing the battery. Unbolt and the filter housing part pulls right out of the rest of the air box. Just a tube in a boot.
Have a pack of razors on hand to remove old silicone, and try to get it off the old gasket too if re-using.
If you remove the rubber cover from the plastic cowl, be careful. that sh*t's sharp. The plastic cut me pretty good the first time
clean the area where the old silicone was on the cylinder head with rubbing alcohol before applying new silicone.
Have extra blue clippies on hand for the plastic cowl. here's a current
so I didn't read it too closely. Figured since I anti-seized the plugs during my recent replacement, it was prolly just that.
Drove for a half hour, idled for another half (broken up)
