My Turbo Build: Possibly the first USDM GE8 turbo build actually completed
#22
01-15-2011, 02:57 PM
Gotta commend you for having the nuts to dig in to the car like that. Hopefully the L15 becomes like the D-series, where you just throw boost at it until it blows and then buy a new one for next to nothing.
#23
01-15-2011, 03:21 PM
A run on a dyno might yield a little bit of hidden horsepower if you can afford the time for a few runs.... I'm not sure knowing what a dyno run and knowing your horsepower and torque output is good for other than a tuning aid if you are pleased with the way you have it set up as it is.... I like what his description of the way it's running and that's plenty good enough even for 3 times the money he has in it, or even more.
#26
01-15-2011, 05:20 PM
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Chicago, Illinois
Posts: 4,424
so for the current set up that Lyon has, run him around 1200 bucks. have you got a new hp with his new set up yet? i'd be super interested in this, however with my lack of knowlege, coming back home(to canada) would be brutal if i didn't know how to fix something if something were to go wrong.....lol. i'll see how you guys make out with this, and if this all turns out for the good, i'll certainly be in touch.
Which is why I go off airflow and data from acceleration during captured logs instead of just dyno figures.
This is something that I want to see become more common. This will basically force the groups like HKS, Greddy, T1R, and others into more competitive pricing. It will also show the interest this demographic has if they are willing to go the distance and boost their own cars, and hopefully this will lead to more innovation from those with deeper wallets.
But anyone who owns a turbocharged car, especially one that is not OE, should at least have a basic mechanics toolset. Which you can get at Harbor Freight or even Home Depot. There are also a couple of books I would recommend, all of which you can buy on Amazon, including a Helms Service manual for your Fit.
This should cover more than 90% of the stuff that could potentially come up along the way.
And if you were to come all the way out west and south from NB, you can bet I wouldn't leave you hanging once you leave! Not to mention a several day crash course in maintenance, inspection and tuning.
#28
01-15-2011, 06:56 PM
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Chicago, Illinois
Posts: 4,424
In a word: Yes!
The VE, timing and fuel maps would be "interesting" to say the least though.
If you were going to go the "twincharged route" I wouldn't personally use a rotrex but it would certainly still work.
Methanol injection between stages would be a necessary, or a switch to E85/E98.
This is something I have thought about though.. if you get serious about this I would be more than happy to look into it for you!
#29
01-15-2011, 07:07 PM
In a word: Yes!
The VE, timing and fuel maps would be "interesting" to say the least though.
If you were going to go the "twincharged route" I wouldn't personally use a rotrex but it would certainly still work.
Methanol injection between stages would be a necessary, or a switch to E85/E98.
This is something I have thought about though.. if you get serious about this I would be more than happy to look into it for you!
The VE, timing and fuel maps would be "interesting" to say the least though.
If you were going to go the "twincharged route" I wouldn't personally use a rotrex but it would certainly still work.
Methanol injection between stages would be a necessary, or a switch to E85/E98.
This is something I have thought about though.. if you get serious about this I would be more than happy to look into it for you!
#30
01-15-2011, 07:17 PM
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Chicago, Illinois
Posts: 4,424
I know diesels buses in Chicago has the twin setup but in a car its possible but the engine would have to be beefed up. My other car Bugatti Veyron - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia has 4 turbos
Great finds as always!
On a related note:
Do you mean twin turbo, compound turbo or "twincharged" (turbo + supercharger)
I thought most of the busses (CTA included) were using either Holset HX50's or Garrett GT40/GT42's?
The veyron seems to have 4 identical turbos fromthe diagrams I have been able to find:
#31
01-15-2011, 07:25 PM
Hey man, just got your PM's and I am thinking about seeing if I can go to the Naperville facility for some classes! I would love to actually talk to BP engineers about what they are doing with their fuels around here.
Great finds as always!
On a related note:
Do you mean twin turbo, compound turbo or "twincharged" (turbo + supercharger)
I thought most of the busses (CTA included) were using either Holset HX50's or Garrett GT40/GT42's?
The veyron seems to have 4 identical turbos fromthe diagrams I have been able to find:
Great finds as always!
On a related note:
Do you mean twin turbo, compound turbo or "twincharged" (turbo + supercharger)
I thought most of the busses (CTA included) were using either Holset HX50's or Garrett GT40/GT42's?
The veyron seems to have 4 identical turbos fromthe diagrams I have been able to find:
Theres a class on line too and you get a certificate to put up.
#32
01-15-2011, 07:44 PM
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Chicago, Illinois
Posts: 4,424
That is basically the exact style S/C that I had in mind, a 6-71 or an MP62 like this Lotus that does 15-110mph in 7 seconds
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VOk-HsydQfc
FS: 500+bhp Compound Charged Exige - LotusTalk - The Lotus Cars Community
Dual Chargers ? - LotusTalk - The Lotus Cars Community
He is by no means the only example of this though, here is one of a couple mass produced versions:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nissan_MA_MA09ERT
Now here is something cool to think about, most superchargers (not the Rotrex) are relatively inefficient compared to a similar size supercharger. Eaton Roots type like the ones above in particular generate a lot of extra heat. They also rob power straight from the crank, like the Rotrex. One of the cool effects of feeding a turbos outlet into a roots type is that it then re-compresses the pre-compressed air but with positive inlet pressure it actually feeds energy back into the crankshaft. The turbo actually helps make up for not only wasted exhaust gas energy but power wasted by the supercharger!
The tough part is synchronizing the Turbo's blow off valve and the Superchargers compressor by-pass valve, which can make part throttle difficult. Twin chargers are popular on Mini's.
Last edited by DiamondStarMonsters; 01-15-2011 at 08:05 PM.
#33
01-15-2011, 08:18 PM
That is basically the exact style S/C that I had in mind, a 6-71 or an MP62 like this Lotus that does 15-110mph in 7 seconds
YouTube - Lotus Exige Ronin Compound Charger
FS: 500+bhp Compound Charged Exige - LotusTalk - The Lotus Cars Community
Dual Chargers ? - LotusTalk - The Lotus Cars Community
He is by no means the only example of this though, here is one of a couple mass produced versions:
Nissan MA MA09ERT - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Now here is something cool to think about, most superchargers (not the Rotrex) are relatively inefficient compared to a similar size supercharger. Eaton Roots type like the ones above in particular generate a lot of extra heat. They also rob power straight from the crank, like the Rotrex. One of the cool effects of feeding a turbos outlet into a roots type is that it then re-compresses the pre-compressed air but with positive inlet pressure it actually feeds energy back into the crankshaft. The turbo actually helps make up for not only wasted exhaust gas energy but power wasted by the supercharger!
The tough part is synchronizing the Turbo's blow off valve and the Superchargers compressor by-pass valve, which can make part throttle difficult. Twin chargers are popular on Mini's.
YouTube - Lotus Exige Ronin Compound Charger
FS: 500+bhp Compound Charged Exige - LotusTalk - The Lotus Cars Community
Dual Chargers ? - LotusTalk - The Lotus Cars Community
He is by no means the only example of this though, here is one of a couple mass produced versions:
Nissan MA MA09ERT - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Now here is something cool to think about, most superchargers (not the Rotrex) are relatively inefficient compared to a similar size supercharger. Eaton Roots type like the ones above in particular generate a lot of extra heat. They also rob power straight from the crank, like the Rotrex. One of the cool effects of feeding a turbos outlet into a roots type is that it then re-compresses the pre-compressed air but with positive inlet pressure it actually feeds energy back into the crankshaft. The turbo actually helps make up for not only wasted exhaust gas energy but power wasted by the supercharger!
The tough part is synchronizing the Turbo's blow off valve and the Superchargers compressor by-pass valve, which can make part throttle difficult. Twin chargers are popular on Mini's.
#34
01-15-2011, 08:52 PM
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Chicago, Illinois
Posts: 4,424
That is one of my top 3 ideas at the moment actually.. All it would take is a lower intake manifold, a belt driven roots pump, and a trip to my machinists in Wheeling If I find a used Rotrex for cheap before getting to that I may take Texas Coyote's lead and try that with my rusty trusty 14B turbo. I am dead serious on a 300whp/300lb-ft L15A, I just need time and money 
Twin charging and compound charging are more efficient on pump gas than just a big single turbo or S/C because you can operate both at lower "boost" and still churn out high boost in the manifold. But here's the best way I can describe what it would be like to feed a turbo through a rotrex... It would be like turbo charging a variable displacement engine.
For instance, obviously at idle we have a 1.5L engine. So since a Rotrex has a linear boost gain, unlike a turbo it doesn't start to "spool" at lower rpm, then suddenly peak boost and then hold that peak boost through redline.
If you run ~15psi max boost on a Rotrex for example you would reach say 7-8psi @ 3500rpm, which would make our 1.5L engine roughly a 2.25L engine, and by the time you reach 7000rpm and 15psi you have 3.0L. So that's roughly how the works by volume, not necessarily mass flow, but its a good approximation
Now on top of that you have the turbo charger. This is where we stop talking about "boost" for a moment and focus on "pressure ratios." Just sitting in our chairs we are under about 14.7psi, or atmospheric pressure that everyone on this forum is subjected to every day. It is what keeps all our skin intact with organs inside our bodies and keeps our blood from boiling off.
So when you want to run boost on your car we use a turbo or a supecharger to compress that air. The amount of boost is determined by the pressure ratio we run the compressor at.
A pressure ratio of 2.0 at sea level would be 14.7psi atmospheric x 2.0 pressure ratio = 29.4psi absolute, or 14.7psi boost pressure. So if you run 14.7psi boost, through a turbo at 2.0 pressure ratio, you get 29.4psi boost, so 44.1psi absolute. Or the equivalent of a naturally aspirated engine in a 44.1psi atmostphere.
This is where the compound set up shows it advantages over a big single turbo for many applications, like a street vehicle, circuit racing or auto-x.
If I find a used Rotrex for cheap before getting to that I may take Texas Coyote's lead and try that with my rusty trusty 14B turbo. I am dead serious on a 300whp/300lb-ft L15A, I just need time and money Twin charging and compound charging are more efficient on pump gas than just a big single turbo or S/C because you can operate both at lower "boost" and still churn out high boost in the manifold. But here's the best way I can describe what it would be like to feed a turbo through a rotrex... It would be like turbo charging a variable displacement engine.
For instance, obviously at idle we have a 1.5L engine. So since a Rotrex has a linear boost gain, unlike a turbo it doesn't start to "spool" at lower rpm, then suddenly peak boost and then hold that peak boost through redline.
If you run ~15psi max boost on a Rotrex for example you would reach say 7-8psi @ 3500rpm, which would make our 1.5L engine roughly a 2.25L engine, and by the time you reach 7000rpm and 15psi you have 3.0L. So that's roughly how the works by volume, not necessarily mass flow, but its a good approximation
Now on top of that you have the turbo charger. This is where we stop talking about "boost" for a moment and focus on "pressure ratios." Just sitting in our chairs we are under about 14.7psi, or atmospheric pressure that everyone on this forum is subjected to every day. It is what keeps all our skin intact with organs inside our bodies and keeps our blood from boiling off.
So when you want to run boost on your car we use a turbo or a supecharger to compress that air. The amount of boost is determined by the pressure ratio we run the compressor at.
A pressure ratio of 2.0 at sea level would be 14.7psi atmospheric x 2.0 pressure ratio = 29.4psi absolute, or 14.7psi boost pressure. So if you run 14.7psi boost, through a turbo at 2.0 pressure ratio, you get 29.4psi boost, so 44.1psi absolute. Or the equivalent of a naturally aspirated engine in a 44.1psi atmostphere.
This is where the compound set up shows it advantages over a big single turbo for many applications, like a street vehicle, circuit racing or auto-x.
Twincharging
Twincharging is using two compressors in series to compress the air. This is different than sequential setups which use one compressor stage at low RPMs and switch to the next at higher RPMS. Such setups usually take the form of a turbo feeding a supercharger, although technically you could feed the turbo from the supercharger or use two superchargers or two turbos (dual stage superchargers or two turbos in series were commonly used on WWII fighter aircraft). Obviously a system with two compressors will inherently be more complex and expensive than a system with one. Why bother? There are some real benefits to twincharging at high boost levels, and a car like the supercharged Wbody already has a roots blower so a twincharged setup is nearly 50% complete.
Roots blowers, like on the Wbody, are positive displacement units. Although they can provide good low RPM boost, they are the most inefficient of all compressors. Eaton’s twisted rotor design makes up for some of the limitations, but adiabatic efficiency is still limited to around the 60% range. This mean that increases in boost on the stock unit disproportionately increase intake temperatures as compared with a centrifugal compressor (such as in a turbo, which can operate in the 70 to 75% efficiency range).
Imagine that you want to run 20psi of boost on your Wbody. Theoretically, you could spin the Eaton until it produces that amount of boost. However, given low efficiency, you will have some pretty hot air. How hot you ask? Let’s assume we are at sea level, the air temperature is 80F, and the compressor efficiency is 0.6 (60%). At 20psi of boost, the inlet of the supercharger will see about 14.7psi absolute pressure, and the outlet will be at 34.7psi absolute. This is a pressure ratio of about 2.36 (34.7/14.7). With these conditions, the air fed into the cylinders will be 327.5F. You could almost bake a cake.
What would happen if we fed the roots blower with a turbo? We will use the turbo to add 10psi of boost and the roots to add 10psi to get the total of 20psi of boost. We will keep the above assumptions and add that the turbo is at 70% efficiency. The turbo itself will be operating at a pressure ratio of 1.68 (24.7/14.7). The turbo inlet temperature is 80F and the outlet temperature will be 201.9F.
The air from the turbo then goes to the roots supercharger. The roots supercharger compresses the already compressed air. The supercharger’s inlet temperature is 201.9F, and the inlet pressure is 24.7psi. Thus to add another 10psi of boost, it will operate at a pressure ratio of 1.4 (34.7/24.7). The outlet temperature will thus be 313.3F. We have reduced the inlet temperature to the motor by 14F, which isn’t surprising since we added a more efficient compressor to do half the work. However, we haven’t quite justified the twincharger setup.
Now, what would happen if we added an intercooler between the turbo and the supercharger? (The intercooler received its name because it was originally used between compressor stages on aircraft). Let’s assume the intercooler is 80% efficient and will have a pressure drop of 1psi. To make up for the drop, we will use the turbo to produce an extra 1psi so that in the end the boost at the motor is still 20psi.
Adhering to our original assumptions, the turbo is now operating at a pressure ratio of 1.75 (25.7/14.7) with an inlet temperature of 80F and an outlet temperature of 211.6F. So far, we have an extra 10F of temperature in the air.
The intercooler will have an inlet temperature of 211.6F, but an outlet temperature of only 106.3F with a “pressure ratio” of 0.96 (24.7/25.7).
The roots supercharger in this case will be starting with the same inlet pressure, but a much lower inlet temperature. With the same pressure ratio, 1.4 (34.7/24.7), the outlet temperature of the supercharger is now only 201.4F. That is over 125F less than if we had used the supercharger by itself to compress the air.
The obvious question is then why not rip off the supercharger and just use a big turbo and intercooler to make the boost? You may be able to save another 70F of air temperature, but it will be difficult to find a turbo that will spool to a 21psi boost as quickly as one that only has to get to 11psi. Bottom line is that if you can tune it, which is difficult, a twincharged setup can be very effective.
Equations:
T2 = T1 + [T1*(P2/P1)^0.283 – T1] / CE
Where T1 is the ambient temperature, T2 is the outlet temperature, P1 is the inlet absolute pressure, and P2 is the outlet absolute pressure. The temperatures must be in units of Kelvin or Rankine.
And
Tout = Tin – IE*(Tin – Tamb)
Where Tin is the inlet temperature (K or R), Tamb is the ambient temperature, Tout is the outlet temperature and IE is the intercooler efficiency.
And finally
K = [(F – 32)*0.5555] +273.15
To convert Fahrenheit to Kelvin.
Twincharging is using two compressors in series to compress the air. This is different than sequential setups which use one compressor stage at low RPMs and switch to the next at higher RPMS. Such setups usually take the form of a turbo feeding a supercharger, although technically you could feed the turbo from the supercharger or use two superchargers or two turbos (dual stage superchargers or two turbos in series were commonly used on WWII fighter aircraft). Obviously a system with two compressors will inherently be more complex and expensive than a system with one. Why bother? There are some real benefits to twincharging at high boost levels, and a car like the supercharged Wbody already has a roots blower so a twincharged setup is nearly 50% complete.
Roots blowers, like on the Wbody, are positive displacement units. Although they can provide good low RPM boost, they are the most inefficient of all compressors. Eaton’s twisted rotor design makes up for some of the limitations, but adiabatic efficiency is still limited to around the 60% range. This mean that increases in boost on the stock unit disproportionately increase intake temperatures as compared with a centrifugal compressor (such as in a turbo, which can operate in the 70 to 75% efficiency range).
Imagine that you want to run 20psi of boost on your Wbody. Theoretically, you could spin the Eaton until it produces that amount of boost. However, given low efficiency, you will have some pretty hot air. How hot you ask? Let’s assume we are at sea level, the air temperature is 80F, and the compressor efficiency is 0.6 (60%). At 20psi of boost, the inlet of the supercharger will see about 14.7psi absolute pressure, and the outlet will be at 34.7psi absolute. This is a pressure ratio of about 2.36 (34.7/14.7). With these conditions, the air fed into the cylinders will be 327.5F. You could almost bake a cake.
What would happen if we fed the roots blower with a turbo? We will use the turbo to add 10psi of boost and the roots to add 10psi to get the total of 20psi of boost. We will keep the above assumptions and add that the turbo is at 70% efficiency. The turbo itself will be operating at a pressure ratio of 1.68 (24.7/14.7). The turbo inlet temperature is 80F and the outlet temperature will be 201.9F.
The air from the turbo then goes to the roots supercharger. The roots supercharger compresses the already compressed air. The supercharger’s inlet temperature is 201.9F, and the inlet pressure is 24.7psi. Thus to add another 10psi of boost, it will operate at a pressure ratio of 1.4 (34.7/24.7). The outlet temperature will thus be 313.3F. We have reduced the inlet temperature to the motor by 14F, which isn’t surprising since we added a more efficient compressor to do half the work. However, we haven’t quite justified the twincharger setup.
Now, what would happen if we added an intercooler between the turbo and the supercharger? (The intercooler received its name because it was originally used between compressor stages on aircraft). Let’s assume the intercooler is 80% efficient and will have a pressure drop of 1psi. To make up for the drop, we will use the turbo to produce an extra 1psi so that in the end the boost at the motor is still 20psi.
Adhering to our original assumptions, the turbo is now operating at a pressure ratio of 1.75 (25.7/14.7) with an inlet temperature of 80F and an outlet temperature of 211.6F. So far, we have an extra 10F of temperature in the air.
The intercooler will have an inlet temperature of 211.6F, but an outlet temperature of only 106.3F with a “pressure ratio” of 0.96 (24.7/25.7).
The roots supercharger in this case will be starting with the same inlet pressure, but a much lower inlet temperature. With the same pressure ratio, 1.4 (34.7/24.7), the outlet temperature of the supercharger is now only 201.4F. That is over 125F less than if we had used the supercharger by itself to compress the air.
The obvious question is then why not rip off the supercharger and just use a big turbo and intercooler to make the boost? You may be able to save another 70F of air temperature, but it will be difficult to find a turbo that will spool to a 21psi boost as quickly as one that only has to get to 11psi. Bottom line is that if you can tune it, which is difficult, a twincharged setup can be very effective.
Equations:
T2 = T1 + [T1*(P2/P1)^0.283 – T1] / CE
Where T1 is the ambient temperature, T2 is the outlet temperature, P1 is the inlet absolute pressure, and P2 is the outlet absolute pressure. The temperatures must be in units of Kelvin or Rankine.
And
Tout = Tin – IE*(Tin – Tamb)
Where Tin is the inlet temperature (K or R), Tamb is the ambient temperature, Tout is the outlet temperature and IE is the intercooler efficiency.
And finally
K = [(F – 32)*0.5555] +273.15
To convert Fahrenheit to Kelvin.
Last edited by DiamondStarMonsters; 01-15-2011 at 09:14 PM.
#35
01-15-2011, 09:27 PM
But anyone who owns a turbocharged car, especially one that is not OE, should at least have a basic mechanics toolset. Which you can get at Harbor Freight or even Home Depot. There are also a couple of books I would recommend, all of which you can buy on Amazon, including a Helms Service manual for your Fit.
This should cover more than 90% of the stuff that could potentially come up along the way.
And if you were to come all the way out west and south from NB, you can bet I wouldn't leave you hanging once you leave! Not to mention a several day crash course in maintenance, inspection and tuning.
This should cover more than 90% of the stuff that could potentially come up along the way.
And if you were to come all the way out west and south from NB, you can bet I wouldn't leave you hanging once you leave! Not to mention a several day crash course in maintenance, inspection and tuning.
shoot me a pm with some books, and i'll search the book stores here before going on amazon. i'll start doing some research on this shiz...perking my interest
#36
01-15-2011, 10:56 PM
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Chicago, Illinois
Posts: 4,424
PM sent! Let me know if there is anything else! The Helms manual can be pricey, shop around.
But in the end you will see they are worth their weight in gold for DIY guys!
Edit: Sorry if I am hijacking your thread Lyon!
#37
01-16-2011, 12:08 AM
The Helms manual is a must for anyone that has limited experience working on cars.... It's great to have if if you have experience and are old and losing your mind also....
#38
01-16-2011, 12:09 AM
or he could be resourceful and get the honda ge8 esm for nothing 
http://img28.imageshack.us/img28/1641/jazzfitesm.jpg
http://img28.imageshack.us/img28/1641/jazzfitesm.jpg
Last edited by ThEvil0nE; 01-16-2011 at 12:13 AM.
#40
01-16-2011, 03:06 AM
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Chicago, Illinois
Posts: 4,424
Even a Haynes or Chiltons works if your stuck on the side of the road lol Certainly nice to have the one made by Helms for Honda themselves.