Trans Fluid Changed early? (30K miles).
 

First, I would like to give thanks to Clay for the great thread with lots of details and info. I didn't even know about the DW-1 before his thread.

https://www.fitfreak.net/forums/gene...tml#post949456

There is not much that one can add to Clay's thread, but I decided to create my own just to confirm the info that he provided:

DO NOT WAIT FOR 60K MILES BEFORE CHANGING YOUR AUTO TRANS FLUID (Unless you're leasing the Fit or don't plan to keep it long term).

As of this morning, I was at 29,454 miles on my 2009 Fit. 90% of the miles are highway and decided to do the transmission fluid change before the Football games began. I was in pure shock to see how brown the original transmission was.

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Note all the metal shavings.

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Magnet after its been cleaned.

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Biggest shock is that Honda recommends that we drive 30K more miles on this fluid before changing it (new DW-1 on left, used Z1 on right).

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What kind of driving? It looks pretty dirty and would change sooner. It might be because of the higher temps down there.

I just looked at the manual for my 2010 Fit. It doesn't even say to change the ATF at 60,000 miles. It says that IF you drive in mountainous areas at low speed then the ATF runs hotter, and THEN you should change at 60,000 rather than what the maintenance minder says. Presumably the computer won't tell you to change it until long past 60,000 miles. If I remember right I've owned at least one car that recommended never changing the transmission fluid.

That said, I would like to see photos not only comparing new fluid to 30,000 mile fluid, but new to, say, 5000 mile fluid and 30,000 fluid to 60,000 fluid. Of course I'm not asking you to do that!

Yes, I seen it too in the 2010 owners manual Pg 251 (Canadian Version), that spelled out exactly as what Brain Champagne mentioned.

The manual used the word "IF" you drive in mountainous areas alot at low speeds resulting in higher sustained transmission temperatures, then changed transmission fluid more frequently. Honda used the word "frequently" to mean first change after 60,000 miles, then every 30,000 miles thereafter, for A/T only.

It seems FIT's on board computer will not know how mountainous our daily commute is to affect the quality of transmission fluids. If we wait for the maintenance minder, who knows when the transmission fluid change minder will come on, 80,000 miles? 100,000 miles.

So, in a nut shell, Honda relies on individual driver's discretion to interpret ate "mountainous" How mountainous is consider mountainous.. would small hills count? sloping drive ways?

Which brings me to my next paranoia in buying used cars....normally I like to find out who and lifestyle of the previous owner....how do we know the previous owner did his/her due diligence to change all these fluids as specified in the owners manual...

Says mountains, not hills.

That said, like oil I don't see that it can do harm to change it more frequently. I didn't see anything saying NOT to change it early like Honda says about engine oil since the car comes with break-in oil.

I noticed in fluid capacities that when you change the ATF you're not even getting half of the stuff out, so a fluid change is really only changing half the fluid, although maybe (please someone who knows correct me if I'm wrong) any metal particles would be more likely to settle in the bottom thus they'd be drained.

You have to keep an eye on it, heat is what breaks down oil,transmission fluids. Changing the trans at 30,000 in the heat of Florida is probably normal. Its preventive maintenance and in his case, called for. I was on board that 60000 was the minimum but I just learned that 1 rule doesn't apply to all situations. Just like gas, some cars do fine with regular but that doesn't mean all cars.

I live in South FL, so it is indeed hot here but nothing odd that Honda shouldn't have engineerd the car for. Bought this 09 Fit base as a daily driver so it just racks up easy highway miles. No mods.

My 2009 and 2010 Fits are my first dabs into Honda products (used to be a Ford Guy). I've never seen ATF this dark in a car unless the transmission failed or broke in some way. In all my past experience, fluid would still look very clean at 30K miles.

Scary that the manual says that.

We all know that one cannot or should not judge motor oil by its color (being dark doesn't mean its broken down).

However, most people that I know "do" take the color of the transmission fluid into account. This fluid, at just under 30K easy miles, did not look good at all and it bothers me that Honda recommends to change it soo late.

I've had Ford products in the past that didn't even have an ATF drain plug. Recommended changing the fluid very late (100K miles I think) and the fluid was still shinny red at those miles (here in S. FL no less with the same style and type of driving).

I honestly don't believe the issue is the climate. If you look at the pictures in Clay's thread (linked in my first post of this thread) you will notice that his 30K mile ATF is at the same state as mine was and he doesn't live in S. FL.

I am willing to bet that most, if not all, the Fits on this board have their ATF at the same state at 30K miles or so.

Honestly, I believe that the issue is either that the Z-1 fluid breaks down too fast, or that the transmission in our Fits puts unusual stress on fluids.

This point sounds interesting...Shora may be on to something here...

I am not a mechanic, but from my observation, a little press on the gas pedal can easily kick the engine to higher rev, , triggering AT gear change, can it be the gearing ratio specific to FITs,

Hey Shora thanks for the shout out.

And I do not think geographical location makes a difference with fluid degredation.

I live in Charlotte, NC and the fluid in my thread was probably a tad darker than Shoras.
I put 20K miles on my Fit in the 7 months before I changed my fluid that is in my thread. We had some hot ass days during the summer here but probably not the continual hotness of South Florida.
I could honestly say that out of those 20K miles about 2-3% was stop-n-go traffic or short runs, the rest was all interstate 60-75mph.


Like in my thread I always see ATF Z-1 fluid that color after 20-30K miles in my 94 accord.

I am so glad I did not wait for the car to "remind" me or the 60K mark to change mine.


If people are unsure, just unscrew the plug and drain an ounce or two in order to see the current state of the fluid.
I am going to do that every 5K miles with the DW-1 fluid I just put in a few weeks ago to see at what point it starts to discolor.


Clay

Really looking forward to the findings of your new tests.

I already know they will be very informative.

I did a 3 qt drain and refill, which replaces 50% of the fluid volume, on a friend's 09 Fit at approx. 35k. At the time of the fluid change, the fluid was brown, but did not appear burnt. I refilled with ATF-Z1, and 9k later the fluid is still red. Although the fluid change did smooth out the shifts, I felt a greater improvement in shift quality after I had the onboard computer reflashed with the latest software. The software update was done as part of fuel economy display TSB.

Thanks for the info.
I won't know until I take my samples at pre-determined intervals with the new DW-1 to see its color state.
Your statement makes me wonder if the initial (factory) fill of transmission fluid contains more/less additives than what comes in purchased bottles of OEM Honda transmission fluid. Maybe the transmission beats the hell out of the fluid during break-in, if so then why would Honda mention 60K in the maintenance intervals.

Time will tell.


Clay

It's likely because the factory fill of Z1 contained a lot of break-in debris, and the metallic particles accelerate the oxidation of the factory fill, at least that's what one engineer told me. Can't speak for the validity of that statement though.

Unless you do a 100% flush with DW-1, you will not be able to accurately evaluate its performance.

did you change the inline filter on the cooler return line?
25430-PLR-003

From another manufacturer, im sure the same can be said for honda's fluid.

Mopar ATF+4® has exceptional durability. However, the red dye used in ATF+4® is not
permanent; as the fluid ages it may become darker or appear brown in color. ATF+4® also
has a unique odor that may change with age. With ATF+4® fluid, color and odor are no
longer indicators of fluid condition and do not necessarily support a fluid change

As it says, the red is a dye. Only chemical analysis can reveal the true quality of the fluid. That being said, change it as often as possible. Wont hurt.

Purchased six qts of DW-1 at my local Honda dealership yesterday..at a cost of $7.78 per qt. They mentioned that new Honda's will be using only the DW-1 fluid from now on, and they won't be stocking the Z1 anymore, which was also over $7 per qt. Our Fit has about 20K miles, but I plan on flushing out the Z1.

Changed the transmission fluid today to DW-1…just a few comments that people may find useful.
I ran the car up on some 2X4’ blocks, one for each wheel. My car jacks are large and this provides some extra room for both the equipment and me. I then used two lift jacks on the driver side...one for the front and one for the rear. The drain plug requires a 3/8” drive for removal, and I had to use an extra long ratchet due to the excessive factory torque. Just be sure you are turning the plug in the correct direction. Once removed, I found that I could get more fluid to drain by raising the rear and lowering the front. Final amount of old fluid removed was 3.1 quarts. My drain plug looked fairly clean (20k miles), with only a slight film of metal shavings and sludge on the magnetic surface. In filling with the DW-1, I had to use two separate funnels since the transmission fill hole is located quite low. I installed a small funnel in the fill hole, and used a larger funnel above that one to reach up to the engine bay. Except for breaking loose the overly tight drain plug, a fairly easy job.

USDM Fits have the Maintenance Minder system. It will display a "3" sub-item code to indicate the need for service, in my experience as a Honda service advisor it comes up on most cars between 30-45k miles. The PCM analyzes the fluid temperatures, average throttle opening, idle time, ambient temps, torque converter lock time, etc to determine a correct interval, albeit imperfect at times. The 60k interval is presumably in the manual for people who either ignored the maintenance codes or changed their oil prior to the code display and miss it.

As far as color, fluid with 15k miles will be discolored but performs normally and tests within parameters, much like discolored motor oil. Odor and lubricity are also considered. Besides, unless you perform multiple drain and fills or flush (not recommended) you will get at best a fractional dilution with a 2.5 quart replacement. Either way, 28k is fine, better sooner than later IMO.

Are you familiar with the Maintenance Minder systems?

Someone who owns 2 FITs and goes the length to know about a recent change in Honda ATF spec to DW-1 fluid and posts pictures of their ATF DIY to this board with proper image linking is going to be familiar with the MM.

The point I take is that Z1 is phased out, Honda isn't making more of it. Therefore Honda's admitting DW-1 is better and Z1 is inferior. Accordingly, it's better to get the old stuff out now and in with the superior stuff.

Better or at least the same and more profitable.

Why are flushes not recommended? How else to get all the fluids out>

Wow, Im def changing at 30k. At 28k now!

Power flushes are not recommended as they may damage the transmission components if the power flush removes the sludge that was holding your shoddy transmission together, or if the tranny is sensitive to the pressure exerted by the external tool.

So you need to make sure your mechanic is using a passive fluid exchange machine (T-tec) and using it properly. But then, for the priviledge of using such a machine, you are paying more for the service.

In comparison, drain/fill requires no extra tool surcharge, and is harder to screw up. It also has a far lower cost, so even if you're not getting all the old fluid out, you can do multiple D/Fs for the same price as a full exchange. Plus, there's something to be said about gentlly replacing the fluid a portion at a time, rather then immediately replace all of it (again, more if if your transmission is held together by sludge). The transmission fluid shouldn't have been left to get to such a state where it is so completely bad anyway.

Can't you just refill the tranny fluid through the dipstick hole with a funnel instead of having to remove the intake?

Yes. That's how I do it. I have a funnel with a hose on to fill through the dipstick hole.

Ok, yeah i was wondering why people filled it through the fill hole when its in such a pia spot. when you can just fill it through the dipstick.

We've filled through the dipstick with zero issues. 3 quarts drain out, 3 quarts go in.

After draining/filling at 19k miles and 27k miles, at 34k miles the transmission shifts like it did at 27k miles. Shift quality was notably improved at 19k miles by a drain/fill, and to a lesser extent at 27k miles. It's faster on the 1-2 shift now than at 26k miles.

bumping this thread,

I have already performed 2 Drain/Fills with new DW-1 and have less than 15k miles to get to the "good stuff".

I just had my car in for the LMS recall (Fit is born on March 2009).

At the same time of the recall, I had asked them to apply the TSB for MPG display:
from the sticky: https://www.fitfreak.net/forums/2nd-...-info-ge8.html

This is to upgrade the PCM software to the latest available.

I think someone mentioned in another thread (which I cannot find), this software update seems to do more than just fix the MPG calculation(at least for my car with old 2009 software).

I'd like to give my 2cents that this indeed "seem" to make the shifts smoother (as I assume recall work on the engine wouldn't change shift behavior).

So just FYI, for those looking for the best in shift quality, it is worthwhile to make sure your PCM software is updated at your next service opportunity

yes, that was me. I was the one who noticed that the PCM update significantly improved the shift quality.

i didnt read the entire thread but was there lab tests done on the oil? discoloration does not mean the properties have all worn out or broken down.

metal shavings are typical on first tranny oil changes especially.

It has actually been 13k since that first drain and fill. The shifts have become harsh, and here was a lot of jerkiness during low-speed driving. Strangely, the fluid looked almost new.

I decided to do a 3 qt drain and fill with DW-1. Although the jerkiness during low-speed driving is mostly gone, the shifts are not smoother. Instead, it feels like the shifts are now much more "clean" and "crisp." Before, it seemed like the transmission slipped into gear. Now, the transmission engages each gear positively. The shifts are still a bit on the harsh side, but I plan to do another drain and fill with DW-1 to see what happens.

I've been a Honda guy my entire life, and have worked on the maintenance side of Hondas for about 15 years. I'm currently a service advisor at a Honda dealer, and before that I was at a Honda/Acura only independent repair shop where I was the service manager - I also happen to be able to perform a lot of mechanical repairs such as my own engine swaps, built an engine, a few manual trannys, etc. etc.

I've always owned manual trannys since I enjoy shifting, but when my wife and I decided to get her a new Element back in 2005 she wanted an auto. at this time I was seeing all sorts of Honda auto tranny failures at my shop, so I was a bit gunshy abbout getting an auto tranny model.

My shop had always suggested 30K ATF drain'fill intervals. some Hondas have a total capacity (including torque converter) of close to NINE quarts, so a 3 qt. service only gets 1/3 of the fluid. I've seen how not servicing auto trannys enough can lead to premature failrues. Unfortunately I also know that if our Fit auto trannys are built with the same flawed design like Honda's 98-02 V6 and most of the 4-cyl Accord trannies changing fluid every 5K won't save us from tranny problems.

I set my Element's intervals at 15,000 miles and at it's last 75K drain/fill I performed it still looked bright red - seriously.

I plan on using those same 15,000 mile ATF drain/fill intervals for my newly-purchased auto 2011 Fit Sport too.

Screw Honda's maintenance minder.

Screw Honda's owner's manual and it's 10,000 mile oil change, 30,000 miles oil filter change, and it's ridiculous ATF service intervals.

Old Hondas lasted so long (IMO) not just because they were built better (they were) but because people kept them serviced far better/more frequently. I think all of the longer times (now being pushed these days) between maintenances are manufacturers' ways of marketing their cars as the "cheapest to own/maintain" more so than "you can keep this car for 200,000 miles without any major mechanical failures" like so many older Hondas are known for.

BTW:

If you have an auto Honda that isn't experiencing any transmission issues, but it hasn't been serviced ever, I'd suggest the drain/fill then drive, drain/fill then drive, and finally drain/fill then drive method to completely flush out all of the old fluid. You can pay a shop to do this, but as someone mentioned earlier (I believe it was my fellow Honda advisor) make sure they are not using any "power flush" equipment.

I love our ge8 AT, it's like they designed it for a higher power and then relegated it to scooting around. When you kick up the power, it's almost like it was made for it. Shift quality improves with power (to a point anyway)

Does anyone have the part number for the inline filter above the transmission? I'd like to change mine when I do the fluid change.

Thanks!

Or why not just do the drain/fill every oil change while you are down there and at least get some miles on the fluid which also ensures the fluid is thoroughly mixed.

I drain/filled mine at 27k and it was disgusting. I'll be doing it every 10k.

I ordered 25430-PLR-003 I hope it's right.

I did another 3 qt drain and refill with ATF DW-1 this morning. Even though the latest drain and refill only boosted the DW-1 percentage in the transmission from 50% to 75%, the shifts are even quicker and smoother than compared to after the first drain and refill. The transmission also engages first gear immediately from a stop, as opposed to before, where it would slam and lurch into 1st gear. Now it's easy to modulate the acceleration from a stop.

mine is doing that lurching from first too. So is the DW-1 the new fluid? I have the acura fluid ATF-Z1 that I am going to put in.