K&N drop in filter
#41
11-12-2011, 07:48 PM
Fuel trims do adjust. I dont believe their study. They are basically saying to put a rag over the air filter and you will get better mpg. If the frame was distorted then it got the unfiltered air the engine needed. In real life it dont work that way. A rag is not dirt either. Would you use a rag to get better mpg? I dont think so.
Here is the conclusion from the site you posted:
The goal of this study was to explore the effects of a clogged air filter on the fuel economy of vehicles operating over prescribed test cycles. Three newer vehicles (a 2007 Buick Lucerne, a 2006 Dodge Charger, and a 2003 Toyota Camry) and an older carbureted vehicle were tested.
Results show that clogging the air filter has no significant effect on the fuel economy of the newer vehicles (all fuel injected with closed-loop control and one equipped with MDS). The engine control systems were able to maintain the desired AFR regardless of intake restrictions, and therefore fuel consumption was not increased. The carbureted engine did show a decrease in fuel economy with increasing restriction. However, the level of restriction required to cause a substantial (10–15%) decrease in fuel economy (such as that cited in the literature3,4) was so severe that the vehicle was almost undrivable. Acceleration performance on all vehicles was improved with a clean air filter.
Once it was determined how severe the restriction had to be to affect the carbureted vehicle fuel economy, the 2007 Buick Lucerne was retested in a similar manner. We were not able to achieve the level of restriction that was achieved with the 1972 Pontiac with the Lucerne. The Lucerne’s air filter box would not hold the filter in place under such severe conditions. (It is believed that this testing exceeded the design limits of the air box.) Tests were conducted at a lower restriction level (although still considerably more severe than the initial clogged filter testing), allowing the air filter to stay seated in the air box, and no significant change was observed in the Lucerne’s fuel economy or the AFR over the HFET cycle.
Closed-loop control in modern fuel injected vehicle applications is sophisticated enough to keep a clogged air filter from affecting the vehicle fuel economy. However for older, open-loop, carbureted vehicles, a clogged air filter can affect the fuel economy. For the vehicle tested, the fuel economy with a new air filter improved as much as 14% over that with a severely clogged filter (in which the filter was so clogged that drivability was impacted). Under a more typical state of clog, the improvement with a new filter ranged from 2 to 6%.
Results show that clogging the air filter has no significant effect on the fuel economy of the newer vehicles (all fuel injected with closed-loop control and one equipped with MDS). The engine control systems were able to maintain the desired AFR regardless of intake restrictions, and therefore fuel consumption was not increased. The carbureted engine did show a decrease in fuel economy with increasing restriction. However, the level of restriction required to cause a substantial (10–15%) decrease in fuel economy (such as that cited in the literature3,4) was so severe that the vehicle was almost undrivable. Acceleration performance on all vehicles was improved with a clean air filter.
Once it was determined how severe the restriction had to be to affect the carbureted vehicle fuel economy, the 2007 Buick Lucerne was retested in a similar manner. We were not able to achieve the level of restriction that was achieved with the 1972 Pontiac with the Lucerne. The Lucerne’s air filter box would not hold the filter in place under such severe conditions. (It is believed that this testing exceeded the design limits of the air box.) Tests were conducted at a lower restriction level (although still considerably more severe than the initial clogged filter testing), allowing the air filter to stay seated in the air box, and no significant change was observed in the Lucerne’s fuel economy or the AFR over the HFET cycle.
Closed-loop control in modern fuel injected vehicle applications is sophisticated enough to keep a clogged air filter from affecting the vehicle fuel economy. However for older, open-loop, carbureted vehicles, a clogged air filter can affect the fuel economy. For the vehicle tested, the fuel economy with a new air filter improved as much as 14% over that with a severely clogged filter (in which the filter was so clogged that drivability was impacted). Under a more typical state of clog, the improvement with a new filter ranged from 2 to 6%.
But as a no-brain mod it's great: costs more, takes more effort, might damage the MAF sensor, and doesn't improve MPG. Good marketing though. It might improve top end performance, but I doubt it's a measurable amount.
#42
11-13-2011, 12:06 AM
I can find files and files of info from the government on how replacing a air filter gains upto 10 percent mpg so 1 report that was not proof read and made it to print and changed the way some people think does not make it true.
http://des.nh.gov/organization/commi...nts/ard-39.pdf
http://www.noaca.org/fueltips1157.pdf
http://www.energizedelaware.org/site...011/DelDOT.pdf
http://www.biodieselmichigan.com/Fuel_Saving_Ideas.pdf
They all say the same thing.
As far as warm intake, the auto makers would use it if it helped. Fuel has to vaporize and more fuel is need to insure a proper burn during warm up. There is enough heat in the motor after warm up and the injection system sprays a fine mixture of volatile fuel which is mostly gas vapor after its sprayed. Like a butane lighter.
And before you try to get me on my premium use, Yes it can get worse gas mileage if you drive it hard but when you have knock retard you will get better mpg with premium. Anything that makes the engine more efficient can also make it get worse mpg but its easier to get better mpg too. More power needs more fuel but at the same time less fuel can be used because the car will run leaner. This is the part you dont understand Steve.
http://des.nh.gov/organization/commi...nts/ard-39.pdf
http://www.noaca.org/fueltips1157.pdf
http://www.energizedelaware.org/site...011/DelDOT.pdf
http://www.biodieselmichigan.com/Fuel_Saving_Ideas.pdf
They all say the same thing.
As far as warm intake, the auto makers would use it if it helped. Fuel has to vaporize and more fuel is need to insure a proper burn during warm up. There is enough heat in the motor after warm up and the injection system sprays a fine mixture of volatile fuel which is mostly gas vapor after its sprayed. Like a butane lighter.
And before you try to get me on my premium use, Yes it can get worse gas mileage if you drive it hard but when you have knock retard you will get better mpg with premium. Anything that makes the engine more efficient can also make it get worse mpg but its easier to get better mpg too. More power needs more fuel but at the same time less fuel can be used because the car will run leaner. This is the part you dont understand Steve.
#43
11-13-2011, 02:20 AM
I'm on the fence with K&Ns. You've really got to buy into the premise to make it work value wise. I have one on my naturally aspirated Passat because it's easier to care for and I was willing to take the risk in order to maximise fuel efficiency (the Passat is a guzzler). Empirically my fuel consumption has improved a little, but I certainly can't say the car feels more responsive or faster (typical claims). I wouldn't use it with a forced induction set up because of the problems associated with MAFs, fuel trims and questionable filtering capability (doesn't catch small particles according to some). I have spoken to a number of tuners who avoid them like the plague. I am going to stick with paper media with the Fit since it's so efficient and doesn't really need any tweaking in my view.
#44
11-13-2011, 02:31 AM
millions of k&n filters have been sold and billions of miles have been driven using them. for the price alone, it's worth it. an OEM filter costs $25, the k&n costs $50. clean/re-oil it once and it has paid for itself
#45
11-13-2011, 02:31 AM
Break, no punching...
C'mon guys... The OP had a simple question... Just watched the Pacman/Marquez III. And you guys seem no different... a continuation of the Premium/Regular saga on a new thread... Just agree to disagree. 
Theory, lab tests, data, engineering specs, etc., I'm sure are all impressive to the nth degree. There will always be points and counter points. Reality is, once the car leaves the showroom floor and into the hands of anyone with a driver's license, it's a free-for-all. What's not factored into all these stats is the human element - choice. The info is there to enlighten us and not burden us. With that here's a quote to think about:
"Your time is limited... Don't be trapped by dogma - which is living with the results of other people's thinking. Don't let the noise of other's opinions drown out your own inner voice. And most important, have the courage to follow your heart and intuition." - Steve Jobs
Happy motoring all!
Theory, lab tests, data, engineering specs, etc., I'm sure are all impressive to the nth degree. There will always be points and counter points. Reality is, once the car leaves the showroom floor and into the hands of anyone with a driver's license, it's a free-for-all. What's not factored into all these stats is the human element - choice. The info is there to enlighten us and not burden us. With that here's a quote to think about:
"Your time is limited... Don't be trapped by dogma - which is living with the results of other people's thinking. Don't let the noise of other's opinions drown out your own inner voice. And most important, have the courage to follow your heart and intuition." - Steve Jobs
Happy motoring all!
#46
11-13-2011, 09:51 AM
C'mon guys... The OP had a simple question... Just watched the Pacman/Marquez III. And you guys seem no different... a continuation of the Premium/Regular saga on a new thread... Just agree to disagree.
Theory, lab tests, data, engineering specs, etc., I'm sure are all impressive to the nth degree. There will always be points and counter points. Reality is, once the car leaves the showroom floor and into the hands of anyone with a driver's license, it's a free-for-all. What's not factored into all these stats is the human element - choice. The info is there to enlighten us and not burden us. With that here's a quote to think about:
"Your time is limited... Don't be trapped by dogma - which is living with the results of other people's thinking. Don't let the noise of other's opinions drown out your own inner voice. And most important, have the courage to follow your heart and intuition." - Steve Jobs
Happy motoring all!
Theory, lab tests, data, engineering specs, etc., I'm sure are all impressive to the nth degree. There will always be points and counter points. Reality is, once the car leaves the showroom floor and into the hands of anyone with a driver's license, it's a free-for-all. What's not factored into all these stats is the human element - choice. The info is there to enlighten us and not burden us. With that here's a quote to think about:
"Your time is limited... Don't be trapped by dogma - which is living with the results of other people's thinking. Don't let the noise of other's opinions drown out your own inner voice. And most important, have the courage to follow your heart and intuition." - Steve Jobs
Happy motoring all!
That was a fast fight, 1 punch basically and down.
Good advice and so true.
#47
11-13-2011, 11:14 AM
I can find files and files of info from the government on how replacing a air filter gains upto 10 percent mpg so 1 report that was not proof read and made it to print and changed the way some people think does not make it true.
http://des.nh.gov/organization/commi...nts/ard-39.pdf
http://www.noaca.org/fueltips1157.pdf
http://www.energizedelaware.org/site...011/DelDOT.pdf
http://www.biodieselmichigan.com/Fuel_Saving_Ideas.pdf
They all say the same thing.
http://des.nh.gov/organization/commi...nts/ard-39.pdf
http://www.noaca.org/fueltips1157.pdf
http://www.energizedelaware.org/site...011/DelDOT.pdf
http://www.biodieselmichigan.com/Fuel_Saving_Ideas.pdf
They all say the same thing.
As far as warm intake, the auto makers would use it if it helped. Fuel has to vaporize and more fuel is need to insure a proper burn during warm up. There is enough heat in the motor after warm up and the injection system sprays a fine mixture of volatile fuel which is mostly gas vapor after its sprayed. Like a butane lighter.
And before you try to get me on my premium use, Yes it can get worse gas mileage if you drive it hard but when you have knock retard you will get better mpg with premium. Anything that makes the engine more efficient can also make it get worse mpg but its easier to get better mpg too. More power needs more fuel but at the same time less fuel can be used because the car will run leaner. This is the part you dont understand Steve.
Oh, and premium fuel will absolutely not make your gas mileage worse. Ceteris paribus, higher octane will have no effect on MPG in your Fit. You do own a Fit, don't you?
As for the cost effectiveness of cleaning and oiling your filter, if you keep your car more than 90,000 miles, you'll see a savings using the K&N. 2 replacement factory filters at full list of $25 is $50 (if you shop around they're $17 plus shipping). These will last your car until it has 90,000 miles. If it makes you happy to muck about washing and oiling your filters, if you plan on keeping it 6 years (assuming the average driver will add 15,000 miles per year), and if you can avoid damaging the MAF sensor through excessive oiling (a very expensive mistake if you don't) then you're making a cost effective decision.
Just don't expect it to save you any gas.
#48
11-13-2011, 12:06 PM
I have owned a fit for 3 years but I get a new car every 3 years so I got a Civic. That has nothing to do with what we are talking about.
Car makers also is a business and is mass produced. They purposely tune down these cars. They just build these cars to meet certain cafe standards and leave room for the aftermarket. They have stock in all of these aftermarket and even oil company's. Every thing about a car can be mathematically figured out on paper and that does not mean adding and changing parts and fluids wont improve mpg or power. Maybe that report is another way going after the aftermarket in which more jobs will be lost.
Premium gets better mpg by 2 ways. Fuel density and no knock. My statement of less mpg with premium goes to the temptation to enjoying the extra power too much just as the extra power of a KN or something else.
More Volumetric efficiency means the engine has to work less to make the same power which means better mpg but it also means more power potential.
Volumetric efficiency - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Volumetric Efficiency (and the REAL factor: MASS AIRFLOW), by EPI Inc.
I like KN but with a MAF sensor I would look for a dry filter.
Car makers also is a business and is mass produced. They purposely tune down these cars. They just build these cars to meet certain cafe standards and leave room for the aftermarket. They have stock in all of these aftermarket and even oil company's. Every thing about a car can be mathematically figured out on paper and that does not mean adding and changing parts and fluids wont improve mpg or power. Maybe that report is another way going after the aftermarket in which more jobs will be lost.
Premium gets better mpg by 2 ways. Fuel density and no knock. My statement of less mpg with premium goes to the temptation to enjoying the extra power too much just as the extra power of a KN or something else.
More Volumetric efficiency means the engine has to work less to make the same power which means better mpg but it also means more power potential.
Volumetric efficiency - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Volumetric Efficiency (and the REAL factor: MASS AIRFLOW), by EPI Inc.
I like KN but with a MAF sensor I would look for a dry filter.
#49
11-13-2011, 12:11 PM
#51
11-13-2011, 12:19 PM
I have owned a fit for 3 years but I get a new car every 3 years so I got a Civic. That has nothing to do with what we are talking about.
Car makers also is a business and is mass produced. They purposely tune down these cars. They just build these cars to meet certain cafe standards and leave room for the aftermarket. They have stock in all of these aftermarket and even oil company's. Every thing about a car can be mathematically figured out on paper and that does not mean adding and changing parts and fluids wont improve mpg or power. Maybe that report is another way going after the aftermarket in which more jobs will be lost.
Premium gets better mpg by 2 ways. Fuel density and no knock. My statement of less mpg with premium goes to the temptation to enjoying the extra power too much just as the extra power of a KN or something else.
More Volumetric efficiency means the engine has to work less to make the same power which means better mpg but it also means more power potential.
Volumetric efficiency - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Volumetric Efficiency (and the REAL factor: MASS AIRFLOW), by EPI Inc.
I like KN but with a MAF sensor I would look for a dry filter.
Car makers also is a business and is mass produced. They purposely tune down these cars. They just build these cars to meet certain cafe standards and leave room for the aftermarket. They have stock in all of these aftermarket and even oil company's. Every thing about a car can be mathematically figured out on paper and that does not mean adding and changing parts and fluids wont improve mpg or power. Maybe that report is another way going after the aftermarket in which more jobs will be lost.
Premium gets better mpg by 2 ways. Fuel density and no knock. My statement of less mpg with premium goes to the temptation to enjoying the extra power too much just as the extra power of a KN or something else.
More Volumetric efficiency means the engine has to work less to make the same power which means better mpg but it also means more power potential.
Volumetric efficiency - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Volumetric Efficiency (and the REAL factor: MASS AIRFLOW), by EPI Inc.
I like KN but with a MAF sensor I would look for a dry filter.
I call BS on density of premium gas. Octane enhancers do not increase energy content. They may reduce it.
I call BS on tuning down for the aftermarket. Cars are tuned for minimum emissions and maximum MPG. Aftermarket mods will violate EPA laws (most areas don't check). The purpose of these mods is to increase power (although most are just noise makers) and not increase MPG.
VE has no effect on fuel efficiency. Fuel-injection meters the correct amount of fuel for the amount of air taken in. VE does have an effect on potential power.
Knocking is not an issue. If you hang a blower on it (increasing VE), then it becomes one.
Agree on using dry filters.
#52
11-13-2011, 12:22 PM
So not only do you not own a Fit now, but when you did it was a GD3? The Civic is also a fine car.
I call BS on density of premium gas. Octane enhancers do not increase energy content. They may reduce it.
I call BS on tuning down for the aftermarket. Cars are tuned for minimum emissions and maximum MPG. Aftermarket mods will violate EPA laws (most areas don't check). The purpose of these mods is to increase power (although most are just noise makers) and not increase MPG.
VE has no effect on fuel efficiency. Fuel-injection meters the correct amount of fuel for the amount of air taken in. VE does have an effect on potential power.
Knocking is not an issue. If you hang a blower on it (increasing VE), then it becomes one.
Agree on using dry filters.
I call BS on density of premium gas. Octane enhancers do not increase energy content. They may reduce it.
I call BS on tuning down for the aftermarket. Cars are tuned for minimum emissions and maximum MPG. Aftermarket mods will violate EPA laws (most areas don't check). The purpose of these mods is to increase power (although most are just noise makers) and not increase MPG.
VE has no effect on fuel efficiency. Fuel-injection meters the correct amount of fuel for the amount of air taken in. VE does have an effect on potential power.
Knocking is not an issue. If you hang a blower on it (increasing VE), then it becomes one.
Agree on using dry filters.
#53
11-13-2011, 12:29 PM
I just want to add that more ethanol is being added to gasoline to raise the o2 and octane, so if I am wrong then tell me why they are raising the ethanol content?
I will help you to raise the VE and to raise the octane to off set the mpg lost by less BTUs.
I will help you to raise the VE and to raise the octane to off set the mpg lost by less BTUs.
#54
11-13-2011, 12:30 PM
Sorry, I meant SB.
edit: They add ethanol to reduce emissions (specifically carbon monoxide). It also has the happy effect of raising the octane rating (while lowering energy content and decreasing MPG).
edit: They add ethanol to reduce emissions (specifically carbon monoxide). It also has the happy effect of raising the octane rating (while lowering energy content and decreasing MPG).
Last edited by Steve244; 11-13-2011 at 12:34 PM.
#55
11-13-2011, 02:04 PM
I have owned a fit for 3 years but I get a new car every 3 years so I got a Civic. That has nothing to do with what we are talking about.
Car makers also is a business and is mass produced. They purposely tune down these cars. They just build these cars to meet certain cafe standards and leave room for the aftermarket. They have stock in all of these aftermarket and even oil company's. Every thing about a car can be mathematically figured out on paper and that does not mean adding and changing parts and fluids wont improve mpg or power. Maybe that report is another way going after the aftermarket in which more jobs will be lost.
Premium gets better mpg by 2 ways. Fuel density and no knock. My statement of less mpg with premium goes to the temptation to enjoying the extra power too much just as the extra power of a KN or something else.
More Volumetric efficiency means the engine has to work less to make the same power which means better mpg but it also means more power potential.
Volumetric efficiency - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Volumetric Efficiency (and the REAL factor: MASS AIRFLOW), by EPI Inc.
I like KN but with a MAF sensor I would look for a dry filter.
Car makers also is a business and is mass produced. They purposely tune down these cars. They just build these cars to meet certain cafe standards and leave room for the aftermarket. They have stock in all of these aftermarket and even oil company's. Every thing about a car can be mathematically figured out on paper and that does not mean adding and changing parts and fluids wont improve mpg or power. Maybe that report is another way going after the aftermarket in which more jobs will be lost.
Premium gets better mpg by 2 ways. Fuel density and no knock. My statement of less mpg with premium goes to the temptation to enjoying the extra power too much just as the extra power of a KN or something else.
More Volumetric efficiency means the engine has to work less to make the same power which means better mpg but it also means more power potential.
Volumetric efficiency - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Volumetric Efficiency (and the REAL factor: MASS AIRFLOW), by EPI Inc.
I like KN but with a MAF sensor I would look for a dry filter.
#56
11-13-2011, 02:42 PM
Every put on a mask and its harder to breathe and its gets hot too. That is why some people are on o2 to help them breathe.
#57
11-13-2011, 02:49 PM
This is a write up I found researching racing fuel. The BP Ultimate I use burns cleaner and gets better mpg than E10. Ethanol blends might help reduce emissions in racing cars but using more of it for every day use is using more energy than it made not to include the emissions of the farm grower.
#58
11-13-2011, 02:56 PM
A engine is a AIR pump using gasoline to produce power. The easier it is to get air into the engine the easier the engine revs and is less stressful on other parts. That is why what kind of gas and maintenance is important.
Every put on a mask and its harder to breathe and its gets hot too. That is why some people are on o2 to help them breathe.
Every put on a mask and its harder to breathe and its gets hot too. That is why some people are on o2 to help them breathe.
#59
11-13-2011, 03:13 PM
But the throttle plate is also there. The engine doesn't care why the air flow is what it is. Any sort of these explanations that ignores the thing designed to drastically limit the air flow sounds like someone is BSing. If all that mattered were freer air flow, then the wider the throttle the more efficient the engine would operate, until it reached a peak at WOT, but that's not where engines are most efficient.
You want a cold/dense air charge instead of a hot dirty air charge that uses the EGR and loads up the bearings. Do what you want but its all about VE. Just keep in mind that E10 has 17 percent of the required o2 so more fuel will be used. Loads when taking off at a stop is over 70 percent to 100 percent and if you can keep it down less gas is needed. Loads over 70 percent will use 25 percent more fuel. I have dynoed my car and higher octane allows the car to run lambda all the way through to open throttle.
In simple terms restrictions heat the incoming air which reduces power requiring more fuel to get to speed because it takes more time.
#60
11-13-2011, 03:25 PM
All this is about a clogged Air filter study that comes down to make a need for E15 or Higher when its not needed by using a less restrictive air cleaner.