Where is Honda going?
#101
07-11-2012, 05:14 PM
This is an 'Unofficial Honda' independent site. I suppose that realistically, from their perspective not ours, limits Honda's direct participation in the site discussion.
#102
07-11-2012, 05:24 PM
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Chicago, Illinois
Posts: 4,424
I can only imagine what the reaction of the poor SOB delegate from Honda that would have perused this thread would think.
Probably something along the lines of:
Followed by copious amounts of drinking, and a change of career.
Probably something along the lines of:
Followed by copious amounts of drinking, and a change of career.
#103
07-11-2012, 05:48 PM
Spent the last week in San Diego. I noticed a lot of Miata's, a few FR-S's, RX-8's Mustangs, Camaros, Challengers. All fun to drive "sports cars. Honda has what to compete? Where is this company going? What is it's corporate philosophy? Used to be top tier. Still is in reliablilty, but what else?
I first associated with Honda i 1976. My dealer was a very asctive one with lots of inteeraction with Honda people because he, like them, and I, were very active performance oriented even for the original civic asand later accord. We built more than a few 'tuner' civics with engine imporovements, suspension and aero changes that made the civic a more than capable performer. A competetition book was published around 1977 and more than 1000 copies were sold at $10.
Honda people were most interested, including sohiro honda himself and is was reported he was the originator of the goal of honda was not only the best family cars but also the 'porsche of the popular priced cars'.
That vision led to the ultimate: tghe CRX and tho not available here the CRX SiR, a 180 hp CRX that embarassed many more recognizeable sports cars. /In the rain CRX was a a more than capable competitor with Co0rvettes, muchg to the chagrin of our dealer, a big Corvette guy.
With the loss of Sochiro Honda pushed thed vision of Porsche of small cars' into the bacground and with the demise of the CRX it would not return. With it the technology that drove Honda rec eded.
Enter the CRZ. Whiled there were pockedts of enthusiasts, who wsere embarassed by Mazdas miata the overall mission of Honda glued itself to the responsible small sedan. Had the CRZ been a descendent of the CRX with a 180 hp engine assisted by the 10-12 hp motor, the CRZ would have been backlogged for more than a year in sales. And Honda would return to the pinnacle with that halo car. The Crz, with a tepid 110 hp engine, was an illegitimate descendent of the CRX Recently, Honda has reorganized their product development leadership so perhaps honda will return to its vision of Sochiro. If not, perhaps Mazda will inherit the mantle.We shall see.
Is a bigger engine in works, or a forced induction version of the 1.5 liter for the CRZ, the advent of the CRZ Si. I'm surprized the tuners today have not produced such.
Honda lost its way but appears to be returning to the path of sochiro. It will be a treat to see what happens. Somewhere deep in the caverns of Okaido a small dragon has opened one eye.
Last edited by mahout; 07-11-2012 at 05:51 PM.
#104
07-11-2012, 07:00 PM
Actually the CR-X never had more than 160ps (157hp). The first iteration CR-X Si with the brown top carb'd ZC had 135ps and the 2nd Si model here actually went down to 130ps with EFI. The 2nd iteration of the B16A released in 1992 in the EG6/9 came with 170ps and then the EK9 with the destroked B18 had 185ps. And the top rated CR-X Si stateside was what 108hp? So in reality the CR-Z has more balls than any CR-X released in the US. Sure it does weigh a bit more, final version in US ballooned up to 2300lbs, safety standards and consumers needing more gadgets versus just worrying about driving their damn car and the sussy was a step backwards overall, but the CR-Z is still a good little car. It's just too bad that Honda marketing is horrid and they pushed the CR-Z as a green vehicle when it is not at all one and the ignorant masses are too dumb for their own good to actually see the differences.
The CR-Z if it came with just a 140ps engine and an additional 20ps and a ton of torque (by Honda standards) from the electric motor it would have been a hot seller. It actually has sold alright, but Honda has cut back on delivering more of them to the US because of the weak a$$ $uck. Like I stated in another thread, the top model CR-Z here would cost me like $33k, not many people would purchase the CR-Z for that price even with a hotter powerplant. So until they start making them in Mexico alongside the coming Fit, you will not see many there or if by some miracle the $uck rebounds, not likely though with the FED determined to kill it off and institute a new currency like what happened in Europe.
What Honda needs to really do is dump the Hybrid moniker, leave that nonsense for Toyboat and just call it what it really is an integrated motor assist then people (giving maybe too much credit to the masses) would not try to package it into the same box with Toyboat.
The CR-Z if it came with just a 140ps engine and an additional 20ps and a ton of torque (by Honda standards) from the electric motor it would have been a hot seller. It actually has sold alright, but Honda has cut back on delivering more of them to the US because of the weak a$$ $uck. Like I stated in another thread, the top model CR-Z here would cost me like $33k, not many people would purchase the CR-Z for that price even with a hotter powerplant. So until they start making them in Mexico alongside the coming Fit, you will not see many there or if by some miracle the $uck rebounds, not likely though with the FED determined to kill it off and institute a new currency like what happened in Europe.
What Honda needs to really do is dump the Hybrid moniker, leave that nonsense for Toyboat and just call it what it really is an integrated motor assist then people (giving maybe too much credit to the masses) would not try to package it into the same box with Toyboat.
#105
07-11-2012, 07:02 PM
The others are independent also, but they joined as regular members. No ads, just answers and paying attention to what owners want. Sometimes they are employees, who do not hide that they are employees, with knowledge of a problem, and solutions. Very helpful. My question is, does Honda care enough to even read the site? They might learn something for free.
#107
07-12-2012, 03:08 AM
I had a 91 CRX Si with a D16Z6 but with old intake, exhaust, ecu, etc. It was a pretty decent amount of power but the engine in my new fit feels a lot more refined than the small 4s they made back then.
#108
07-12-2012, 09:14 AM
I first associated with Honda i 1976. My dealer was a very asctive one with lots of inteeraction with Honda people because he, like them, and I, were very active performance oriented even for the original civic asand later accord. We built more than a few 'tuner' civics with engine imporovements, suspension and aero changes that made the civic a more than capable performer. A competetition book was published around 1977 and more than 1000 copies were sold at $10.
Honda people were most interested, including sohiro honda himself and is was reported he was the originator of the goal of honda was not only the best family cars but also the 'porsche of the popular priced cars'.
That vision led to the ultimate: tghe CRX and tho not available here the CRX SiR, a 180 hp CRX that embarassed many more recognizeable sports cars. /In the rain CRX was a a more than capable competitor with Co0rvettes, muchg to the chagrin of our dealer, a big Corvette guy.
With the loss of Sochiro Honda pushed thed vision of Porsche of small cars' into the bacground and with the demise of the CRX it would not return. With it the technology that drove Honda rec eded.
Enter the CRZ. Whiled there were pockedts of enthusiasts, who wsere embarassed by Mazdas miata the overall mission of Honda glued itself to the responsible small sedan. Had the CRZ been a descendent of the CRX with a 180 hp engine assisted by the 10-12 hp motor, the CRZ would have been backlogged for more than a year in sales. And Honda would return to the pinnacle with that halo car. The Crz, with a tepid 110 hp engine, was an illegitimate descendent of the CRX Recently, Honda has reorganized their product development leadership so perhaps honda will return to its vision of Sochiro. If not, perhaps Mazda will inherit the mantle.We shall see.
Is a bigger engine in works, or a forced induction version of the 1.5 liter for the CRZ, the advent of the CRZ Si. I'm surprized the tuners today have not produced such.
Honda lost its way but appears to be returning to the path of sochiro. It will be a treat to see what happens. Somewhere deep in the caverns of Okaido a small dragon has opened one eye.
Honda people were most interested, including sohiro honda himself and is was reported he was the originator of the goal of honda was not only the best family cars but also the 'porsche of the popular priced cars'.
That vision led to the ultimate: tghe CRX and tho not available here the CRX SiR, a 180 hp CRX that embarassed many more recognizeable sports cars. /In the rain CRX was a a more than capable competitor with Co0rvettes, muchg to the chagrin of our dealer, a big Corvette guy.
With the loss of Sochiro Honda pushed thed vision of Porsche of small cars' into the bacground and with the demise of the CRX it would not return. With it the technology that drove Honda rec eded.
Enter the CRZ. Whiled there were pockedts of enthusiasts, who wsere embarassed by Mazdas miata the overall mission of Honda glued itself to the responsible small sedan. Had the CRZ been a descendent of the CRX with a 180 hp engine assisted by the 10-12 hp motor, the CRZ would have been backlogged for more than a year in sales. And Honda would return to the pinnacle with that halo car. The Crz, with a tepid 110 hp engine, was an illegitimate descendent of the CRX Recently, Honda has reorganized their product development leadership so perhaps honda will return to its vision of Sochiro. If not, perhaps Mazda will inherit the mantle.We shall see.
Is a bigger engine in works, or a forced induction version of the 1.5 liter for the CRZ, the advent of the CRZ Si. I'm surprized the tuners today have not produced such.
Honda lost its way but appears to be returning to the path of sochiro. It will be a treat to see what happens. Somewhere deep in the caverns of Okaido a small dragon has opened one eye.
#109
07-12-2012, 10:24 AM
Actually the CR-X never had more than 160ps (157hp). The first iteration CR-X Si with the brown top carb'd ZC had 135ps and the 2nd Si model here actually went down to 130ps with EFI. The 2nd iteration of the B16A released in 1992 in the EG6/9 came with 170ps and then the EK9 with the destroked B18 had 185ps. And the top rated CR-X Si stateside was what 108hp? So in reality the CR-Z has more balls than any CR-X released in the US. Sure it does weigh a bit more, final version in US ballooned up to 2300lbs, safety standards and consumers needing more gadgets versus just worrying about driving their damn car and the sussy was a step backwards overall, but the CR-Z is still a good little car. It's just too bad that Honda marketing is horrid and they pushed the CR-Z as a green vehicle when it is not at all one and the ignorant masses are too dumb for their own good to actually see the differences.
The CR-Z if it came with just a 140ps engine and an additional 20ps and a ton of torque (by Honda standards) from the electric motor it would have been a hot seller. It actually has sold alright, but Honda has cut back on delivering more of them to the US because of the weak a$$ $uck. Like I stated in another thread, the top model CR-Z here would cost me like $33k, not many people would purchase the CR-Z for that price even with a hotter powerplant. So until they start making them in Mexico alongside the coming Fit, you will not see many there or if by some miracle the $uck rebounds, not likely though with the FED determined to kill it off and institute a new currency like what happened in Europe.
What Honda needs to really do is dump the Hybrid moniker, leave that nonsense for Toyboat and just call it what it really is an integrated motor assist then people (giving maybe too much credit to the masses) would not try to package it into the same box with Toyboat.
The CR-Z if it came with just a 140ps engine and an additional 20ps and a ton of torque (by Honda standards) from the electric motor it would have been a hot seller. It actually has sold alright, but Honda has cut back on delivering more of them to the US because of the weak a$$ $uck. Like I stated in another thread, the top model CR-Z here would cost me like $33k, not many people would purchase the CR-Z for that price even with a hotter powerplant. So until they start making them in Mexico alongside the coming Fit, you will not see many there or if by some miracle the $uck rebounds, not likely though with the FED determined to kill it off and institute a new currency like what happened in Europe.
What Honda needs to really do is dump the Hybrid moniker, leave that nonsense for Toyboat and just call it what it really is an integrated motor assist then people (giving maybe too much credit to the masses) would not try to package it into the same box with Toyboat.
My SiR engine imported from Japan dynoed 163 hp at 8800 rpm at the wheels on a chassis dyno and according to my friends in Japan the top engine was rated at 190ps. Mine had a measured top speed of 139 mph.. I dont agree with 140hp, it needs to be at least 180ps. The natural market comparision will be the Toyboat and Sub up scale miata. And probably the Alfa miata, too. If you think a 300+ hp WRX FRS is far away you're not paying attention. cheers
Lead, follow, or get out of ghe way.
#110
07-12-2012, 11:01 AM
Never ever 190ps in a CR-X, not from the showroom as far as numbers were given by Honda. I've had the CR-X SiR's brother in the EF9 SiR Civic, same B16A and it was factory rated at 160ps. The first CTR only came rated at 185ps and would walk all over a CR-X here. My EG9 SiR with the 2nd B16A never released stateside was rated at 170ps and my friend's CR-X wasn't a match, especially when I gutted mine out and it was still slightly heavier, be it in the winding roads or the snoozefest straightline stuff.
Whatever SiR engine you had was not stock as the stock ECU only revved to 7800 and they were not still making power in an upward sweep at that point. Not sure what your friends were passing on to you as far as information goes, but it is not correct or something was lost in translation.
Whatever SiR engine you had was not stock as the stock ECU only revved to 7800 and they were not still making power in an upward sweep at that point. Not sure what your friends were passing on to you as far as information goes, but it is not correct or something was lost in translation.
#111
07-12-2012, 06:55 PM
I cannot find these cars in consumer reports. Or anywhere. I think you can blame autocorrect.
#112
07-12-2012, 07:08 PM
Or so i've heard.
I'm kind of excited.
#113
07-12-2012, 08:44 PM
Never ever 190ps in a CR-X, not from the showroom as far as numbers were given by Honda. I've had the CR-X SiR's brother in the EF9 SiR Civic, same B16A and it was factory rated at 160ps. The first CTR only came rated at 185ps and would walk all over a CR-X here. My EG9 SiR with the 2nd B16A never released stateside was rated at 170ps and my friend's CR-X wasn't a match, especially when I gutted mine out and it was still slightly heavier, be it in the winding roads or the snoozefest straightline stuff.
Whatever SiR engine you had was not stock as the stock ECU only revved to 7800 and they were not still making power in an upward sweep at that point. Not sure what your friends were passing on to you as far as information goes, but it is not correct or something was lost in translation.
Whatever SiR engine you had was not stock as the stock ECU only revved to 7800 and they were not still making power in an upward sweep at that point. Not sure what your friends were passing on to you as far as information goes, but it is not correct or something was lost in translation.
I'm not great at translation, but 160, 170 and 190ps are all stated in Japanese CRX'es sales lit. SiR listed at least 3 variants.
I let that all go with the car when I sold it but our dyno verified psmore than 170ps.
My engine came with the ECU, wiring revisions, and distributor because that was required. . Because they recommended, I bought a spare distributor and still have that. When I dynoed the car after installation it obviously had at least 180 hp at the crankshaft. It ran like it too, under 2:30 at vir in full street condition. We tried over sized tires but it didn't help; needed the extra rpm.When it rained Vettes were easy targets for entertainment. But we were buying aftermarket Japan and it is possible our engine was a variant from Mugen or other tuner.
Are you thinking of American or Japanese sales specs? IOn most cases ps is somewhat 'smaller' than hp.
Last edited by mahout; 07-12-2012 at 08:51 PM.
#114
07-12-2012, 09:36 PM
I'm speaking directly of Japanese specs as I have been here since Aug '93, minus a short 20 month detour in Guam starting in Jan '08. The CR-X seriously only came from Honda at 160ps in Si-R trim, I had 5 friends down on Okinawa with them in glasstop and regular roof form. I will try to track down something here, but it will be a stab in the dark, but will go to Honda headquarters in Tokyo and see if by chance they have anything. There were SiR and SiR2 variants of the Civic EG model, but there was no difference in power, was about creature comforts inside. There was an automatic Civic and I believe CR-X SiR that only had 155ps if I am not mistaken, I know the EG and EK Civics and 3rd gen CR-X (delSol) had this and the EF Si Civic and CR-X using the ZC had an auto version making the same 130ps as the manual, but lower torque. There were actually race base models as well, power was still listed the same as the street going versions, just had no amentities, came all white (another reason I say a real Honda should only be white, haha) and were quite a few kg lighter.
Actually ps is usually about 3 more than hp. For instance the GE Fit here is listed as 120ps and there it is 117hp. The DC2R Teggy was 200ps and 197hp there.
I really believe you had some Mugen go-fast parts in your engine. It's like their old E-AT Mugen/Motul Civic, it had the brown top carb'd ZC, but it wasn't putting out 135ps like the factory motor. That Civic kicked some ass on track. Don't get me wrong at all, I'm not doubting what you had and I would seriously love a 190ps EF CR-X gutted down to just 750kg, it would wreak havoc on some circuits where its gearing wouldn't be a detriment.
Actually ps is usually about 3 more than hp. For instance the GE Fit here is listed as 120ps and there it is 117hp. The DC2R Teggy was 200ps and 197hp there.
I really believe you had some Mugen go-fast parts in your engine. It's like their old E-AT Mugen/Motul Civic, it had the brown top carb'd ZC, but it wasn't putting out 135ps like the factory motor. That Civic kicked some ass on track. Don't get me wrong at all, I'm not doubting what you had and I would seriously love a 190ps EF CR-X gutted down to just 750kg, it would wreak havoc on some circuits where its gearing wouldn't be a detriment.
#115
07-12-2012, 09:46 PM
Here is a website not sure if anyone has mention it shows the 0 to 60 and qtr mile time my model and manufacturer. Interesting the 91 CRX si and Civic Si close to the Fit. Even more interesting my 2012 Fit compared to my 95 Miata about the same weight. My Miata feels faster but not according to this site.
Honda 0-60 Times & Honda Quarter Mile Times | Honda Accord, Civic 0-60, Del Sol, CRZ, CRX and Honda Vtec S2000 0 to 60 stats!
Honda 0-60 Times & Honda Quarter Mile Times | Honda Accord, Civic 0-60, Del Sol, CRZ, CRX and Honda Vtec S2000 0 to 60 stats!
Last edited by cjecpa; 07-12-2012 at 09:50 PM.
#116
07-13-2012, 02:11 PM
I'm speaking directly of Japanese specs as I have been here since Aug '93, minus a short 20 month detour in Guam starting in Jan '08. The CR-X seriously only came from Honda at 160ps in Si-R trim, I had 5 friends down on Okinawa with them in glasstop and regular roof form. I will try to track down something here, but it will be a stab in the dark, but will go to Honda headquarters in Tokyo and see if by chance they have anything. There were SiR and SiR2 variants of the Civic EG model, but there was no difference in power, was about creature comforts inside. There was an automatic Civic and I believe CR-X SiR that only had 155ps if I am not mistaken, I know the EG and EK Civics and 3rd gen CR-X (delSol) had this and the EF Si Civic and CR-X using the ZC had an auto version making the same 130ps as the manual, but lower torque. There were actually race base models as well, power was still listed the same as the street going versions, just had no amentities, came all white (another reason I say a real Honda should only be white, haha) and were quite a few kg lighter.
Actually ps is usually about 3 more than hp. For instance the GE Fit here is listed as 120ps and there it is 117hp. The DC2R Teggy was 200ps and 197hp there.
I really believe you had some Mugen go-fast parts in your engine. It's like their old E-AT Mugen/Motul Civic, it had the brown top carb'd ZC, but it wasn't putting out 135ps like the factory motor. That Civic kicked some ass on track. Don't get me wrong at all, I'm not doubting what you had and I would seriously love a 190ps EF CR-X gutted down to just 750kg, it would wreak havoc on some circuits where its gearing wouldn't be a detriment.
Actually ps is usually about 3 more than hp. For instance the GE Fit here is listed as 120ps and there it is 117hp. The DC2R Teggy was 200ps and 197hp there.
I really believe you had some Mugen go-fast parts in your engine. It's like their old E-AT Mugen/Motul Civic, it had the brown top carb'd ZC, but it wasn't putting out 135ps like the factory motor. That Civic kicked some ass on track. Don't get me wrong at all, I'm not doubting what you had and I would seriously love a 190ps EF CR-X gutted down to just 750kg, it would wreak havoc on some circuits where its gearing wouldn't be a detriment.
PS my SAE manual disagrees that ps is larger than hp.
In any cased Honda needs to upgrade the CRZ as quickly as possible.
#117
07-13-2012, 03:11 PM
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Chicago, Illinois
Posts: 4,424
No ponies in this race, but wanted to clarify that:
1 Pferdestarke (PS or german for "Horse Strength") = 735.x watts
1 Horsepower (HP) = 745.x watts
735/745 = ~98.7%
One horsepower is all of ~1.3% more energy than one Pferdestarke. Till we get to the 4 digit power levels, they are all but interchangeable in offhand conversation.
1 Pferdestarke (PS or german for "Horse Strength") = 735.x watts
1 Horsepower (HP) = 745.x watts
735/745 = ~98.7%
One horsepower is all of ~1.3% more energy than one Pferdestarke. Till we get to the 4 digit power levels, they are all but interchangeable in offhand conversation.
#118
07-13-2012, 04:40 PM
@wetphoto. he's prolly not paid by honda. he just the eddie asshole of this forum and def knows everything.....
#119
07-13-2012, 10:39 PM
It should happen in the near future, regarding an upgraded CR-Z.
#120
07-14-2012, 10:19 PM
No ponies in this race, but wanted to clarify that:
1 Pferdestarke (PS or german for "Horse Strength") = 735.x watts
1 Horsepower (HP) = 745.x watts
735/745 = ~98.7%
One horsepower is all of ~1.3% more energy than one Pferdestarke. Till we get to the 4 digit power levels, they are all but interchangeable in offhand conversation.
1 Pferdestarke (PS or german for "Horse Strength") = 735.x watts
1 Horsepower (HP) = 745.x watts
735/745 = ~98.7%
One horsepower is all of ~1.3% more energy than one Pferdestarke. Till we get to the 4 digit power levels, they are all but interchangeable in offhand conversation.
I hadn't had a chance to check but thats about what I thought. ps is a lesser standard than hp; any ps rating has to be reduced to show horsepower. Thanks.